More info

the plan looks to be a good start. The scale, some dimensions, and what are external hard points, walls, would be useful for people to make suggestions.

Good point

Here is a jpg showing the whole basement, the location of the layout and all the hard points. You can see where the cassettes would load and unload for staging. 

It's a big file I shrank it down so you can open it to see the more detail. The scale is HO.

Add a foot to the donut hole

Add a foot to the donut hole and make the whole thing 8 feet wide. You will not get two full grown men past each other in a 30 inch doorway. 42 inches is what we use on our club and it requires cooperation to get past each other for some folks. Now one of our guys is no problem for that but he has to jump around in the shower to get wet.

I think you are right

Thanks Rob, I think you are right.  I looked at the bench work again and now I can see how that would be very cramped, the problem is that door to the mechanical closet.  If I add a foot to the donut hole I'm running into the swing of the door.  I'm thinking I might have to make the bench narrower through there.  I can see how I need to carve some depth off of the layout overall.

The big question is should I narrow the front run of bench or try to carve it off the back run?  Which would feel and look better.  I imagine the big yard on the front will be a center of activity so maybe shaving off the back is a better option.

Looking forward to everyone's input.  Scott

Lift gate access

Hello Scott,

You have a great railroad plan with the option to run point to point or continuous. May I with all due respect offer two suggestions concerning people space. You may want to consider shifting the liftout gate to the right to Quickbend to make the trackwork as simple as possible on the gate. This small change would also make your point to point (with the gate removed) a little longer. Secondly, we have all read article after article with the author wishing he had made the aisles wider at the loss of benchwork depth. As such, I believe you can retain all of your railroad's interest and operation by reducing the benchwork to 18 inches deep and widening the front aisle to 3 feet and the operator's interior aisle to 4 feet.

Thank you for sharing your plan.

Philip Stead

Looks good

I think it looks good and for a first time builder I also think you really restrained yourself on trackwork. Most first-timers try to cram in a much track as possible, but looking at this it has the feel of someone that has learned, ‘more track is not always better’.

Personally I would narrow the back, or wall side of the benchwork to get the extra room inside. You have mostly scenery on that side and you could squeeze it down by moving Diepdoo Fertilizer to the wall side of the main and put Hungry Cow closer and more parallel maybe a little wall side of where Diepdoo is now. Do the same with Farstead Dairy. Extend the siding just off the main and bend it closer to where Hungry Cow would end up. Then you could narrow your benchwork down to a foot-an-a-half and still have plenty of room for the scenery.

Dissenting opinion

I like the narrow aisle in favor of more scenery but would consider narrowing the gate and portion opposite the yard where people can meet. This will encourage an undulating fascia but that can look fine. Where operators must work back-to-back is the problem and not the aisle width per se. I have areas on my layout that narrow to 20" for a short distance and you just need to take turns. No problem. 

The towns look laid out well with a short train from the TOC it would be fun to operate.  This would be a good example of a TOMA constructed project where portions are built and finished before moving on. You will get a lot of  hands on experience that will improve as each section is done. 

Is there a reason why the end (opposite the cassette staging) was not used right up the the corner of the room?

Thanks for the great input guys!

Well that was a lot of good ideas. I tried to incorporate as many as I could.  I did some refined measurments and and pretty confident of the hard limits of the room now.  Neil, to answer your question about not extending to meet the wall on the right side, there is a power junction box there.  I added it to the diagram for clarity. It has cable, electric and phone (not that the phone lines still work lol).

Philip, I took your advice about moving the lift gate.  There was a voice in the back of my head telling me that when I was drawing it, hearing you say it confirmed what I was thinking.  I'm sure I will thank you when laying that track.

I went with a hybrid version of the donut hole solution. I made it 4 feet most of the space, tapering to about 3 feet at the end, taking what Neil mentioned about taking your turn in the cramped spots.  Plus that's a pretty low activity area on the track plan, it's just some countryside and some rolling hills that will make up the journey from the Littlelanding yard to the next town.

I stole a bit of depth from the back run against the wall, it's now showing 18 inches, and I will have to look at the industries along there.  I think Tim's suggested reworks for them sounds like a good option.  I appreciate your comments on the restraint.  Trust me it's been hard! I've been really making the most of the internet and trying to study all the best practices. Less track is more seems to be a great concept.  I think with the very sophisticated yard up front there will be a lot of operational fun to be had, then a short jaunt around to make your drops and picks.

Neil I'm totally thinking of TOMA, for many reasons I'm sure you already know, the least of which is so I can learn as I go.  I think starting with the yard would be tempting as it looks the most fun to operate but I might be biting off the wrong end, any thoughts on that?

So I've attached a new diagram of the modification to the bench work.  I think I'll wait to rework the track work until after some of you have had a chance to chime in. 

I can't tell you all how great it feels to have all your input, the spouse while somewhat supportive tunes me out after about 30 seconds of "train talk".  I've been holding off pestering my LHS guys until I'm closer to ready to actually buy something.  

Thanks so much for all the feedback and ideas!

Scott

More space in operators pit.

I second that, it's nice to be able to step back without hitting the other side of the layout. The rear sections should be fine with 18 inch width, put those industries on the wall side of the tracks and they won't take up as much space, then some of the foreground scenery can be eliminated and turned into operators space. I'd look at lengthening the left side down towards the wall to gain some more length. If Oyster point is on the waterfront perhaps one of the interchanges could be modeled as a car float connection?  I'd also simplify the yard by eliminating the crossovers and switchback tracks and just go with 4 or 5 full length yard tracks plus the engine service area..........DaveB

Instead of the cassettes...

...could you extend the layout to the left as far as the doors will allow, and have "outside the backdrop" curved staging track/tracks around the left end? If you also curved the top left corner of the layout baseboard closer to track radius, it would seem less of an intrusion into the walkway from stairs to lower left doors. Plus the donut hole would get a bit longer. 

Come to think of it, you could do the same "move the backdrop in a track's width" trick ast the right end as well. 

Or... no backdrop at the left end, keep it all visible. Then make a curved double-ended siding alongside the main with a track going off layout at the bottom left to imply the interchange. Cars could still be moved  on an off layout to your storage shelves for some variety as you grow the roster.  

Order of TOMA

Since you ask, I wouldn't start with the yard but the interchange and siding first. Build some benchwork, roadbed, lay some track, and do some scenery. It will provide you some challenges to figure out the cassette (which I like) and storage for your cars and engines (which seem to grow like rabbits at my house).

Next might be Oyster Point so you can build some structures and have a complete railroad to operate.  You may find that this whets your appetite or keep you busy and having fun for years!

The new configuration looks great.  I would be tempted to create a place for switching the yard outside the donut so switching and the engine facilities are separate. Flipping the yard tracks to the aisle side would allow easy access to turnouts and seeing the cars. An operator would hostle their own engine and couple to the train in cooperation with the yard crew.

Good questions!

The next thing I would look

The next thing I would look at are your passing track lengths. Your era early steam might have shorter cars and smaller engines but as you move into the 30s steam locomotives began to get huge. Even into the 1920s railroads were using big articulateds and larger rigid wheelbase engines.

Now that does not mean this might not be an area that used 2-8-2s as the biggest locomotive on the line but figure in the size of your train when putting in the passing sidings.

Pete

I played around with or should I say I did what I could with my limited understanding of your recommendations for an alternative to the cassette off track staging.  I didn't get too far, but I did really like the idea of pushing out the donut hole a bit for easier access to that section of track and to give a bit more room to the operators.

I marked those changes with the big red arrow.  I also carved off the corner near the stair wall, good call on that one!

However I'm just not seeing how the storage tracks would work on the other side of the sky board. Every attempt left me with some radical radius's that I'm trying to avoid. I want my min radius to be no less than 18 inches, since I want to run some passenger trains.  I know they were shorter back in the day but still rather long  in the middle or late steam era.

I'm not sure what you meant "curved staging track/tracks" , I still have a lot to learn I think.

Answers yielding more questions...

Neil,

Thanks so much for taking an interest in my project, it's been so great getting all this good feedback from you and the other guys on here.

I've attached a new image with the latest tweaks I've integrated from everyone's suggestions.  

I think you are right about starting with the interchange and siding, it would be an easier starting point for learning, my inner child really wants to start with the yard - something about all those switches is like sugar.

I've not really read up on cassettes yet but know they exist from a short mention in a YouTube video I saw. I think I will have a lot of fun figuring it out.  Another poster seemed to think maybe avoid the cassette functionality, I'm open to all suggestions but the cassette idea appeals to me, since I can pretty much drive my trains "away" to a storage shelf, and the wings can fold down or what-ever they do when not in use.

I think I follow you on the Yard.  I imagined the switching of the yard would be from the outside, and thought the engines would be too. Are you suggesting changes to the track configuration or just switch access for the operators?  I have a confession I pretty much copied the yard config. from a diagram I found on a really great site about yards.  This one seemed to have it all, and the little bit of tinkering I did with the "toy train" mode in SCARM was so much fun. You can now run trains virtually in SCARM on your own layout plans, which doing that for 10 minutes brought all the flaws in my initial design right to the surface.

I have so many question, I'll toss them out here just for fun, I'm sure most of these are topics unto themselves.

1. I was thinking of a team track in Little water, all the local farmers can get their deliveries there.  Would this be realistic or would they just have their feed and fertilizer, equipment etc. delivered to the depot?
2. Originally I thought the milk would get picked up at the depot and delivered to the dairy.  I then got thinking it could be a Cheese company, they might get some milk in by box car from Littlewater and then send reefer's out to the interchange full of cheese.  I'm really trying to imagine a system that has a lot of believable work for an op session.  Which I know next to nothing about, other than watching a lot of videos of ops sessions.  CNLVN on YouTube has taught me a lot about it, but I know I have a lot to learn.
3. I have given very little thought to the industries in Oyster Point.  I did imagine that one could be a furniture factory, wood goes in, box cars of furniture go out. Other than that not much of an idea for this area. 
4. I guess I subconsciously assumed traffic would come from the east to the industries, being that the siding all point to the east. Would freight ever go west, and if so would the spur point the other way?  It occurred to me that in reality the link between Oyster Point and the Quickbend run wouldn't really exist, and is solely there for the continuous running option it offers. In essence Oyster point is the "END OF THE LINE". How would you operate on this end of the layout, would you use the link back to Littlelanding or would you make the operator go back the way they came.
5. I do imagine a regular schedule of passenger trains at least one local and several limiteds, and express trains from the two interchange tracks both east and west bound. Would that be any fun driving a train from one cassette to the other. 
6. Which brings me to the two interchange lines that lead to the cassettes.  Even though they both face to the left of the plan, in my mind the top one heads east and the bottom one west. If they were both west bound that wouldn't make much sense would it?  I guess in my mind if you end up pulling into the top cassette you were heading to all locations west, if you end up in the bottom cassette you were going east.  Does that even work from a mental map perspective? I think this kind of works if you think about the layout like I mentioned in point #4.

​Well it's late here and I should probably wrap it up - chances are I stopped making sense a few hundred words ago.  Looking forward to all the great input! PS: I found your blog link, will check it out when my brain is working better.

Aloha! 

With less track

With less track now, you can add some other sidings and spurs once you get the feel for how the layout is going to 'flow'(operate).

I personally have never been big on the cassette idea, but I can see how well it would work in your original plan.

I also thought about the behind-the-scenes curved staging yard at first, but was concerned about the curve radius. Now that you have said your minimum is 18", that might be the better idea.

Here's a (bad) sketch of what I was getting at...

...for the left end. The green lines are the baseboard edge, black for track.

You could move the whole left end track layout further to the left  and make the donut even longer than you showed, if you put the industries inside the main line.

You could even have a small curved yard at the very left in the new area where he interchange cars came in from off the layout. Then you could have a switcher that classified them for the on-layout train(S) and set out the cars ready to go off layout again when the interchange train comes by. It could all be scenic, with just the interchange connection going off the layout (carry to your shelves), or it could all be hidden staging behind the backdrop.   

I think there';s room to do the same at the right end with maybe just one curved interchabge siding hidden behind the backdrop which you would move in a few inches. 

I'm sure It'll be great fun to operate however you end up. 

The small run around track at

The small run around track at Littlewater Creek is not going to be worth the effort to install. I would advise to double track all the way from the right hand turnout at the station all the way around the bend and tie it back into two tracks you have marked interchange. Also move the station to the inside of the curve basically where the two sheds are then add a short spur where the station was and relocate the sheds there. This would put your station in the middle of town and an industry on the outskirts. the longer run around would allow passing trains to be able to run around trains that are working Oyster bay. Leave the cross over as part of the interchange track and this would allow a train coming onto the layout from staging to drop some cars and leave them for the Oyster Bay Turn. 

In Littlelanding I have done a real rough sketch (Pathetic sketch) but there are too many cross- overs and tracks that don't do anything. I would add at least one additional storage track on the left. If you can get three in there I would.  

I don't think you really need those cross overs by the station unless you just want to spend the money on turnouts. One track you could add for operations would be a post office/REA/Team track. you would have some where then to swap out baggage or PO cars. 

Track plan has some nice possibilities. Looks like you designed it in Atlas software. Do they have the option to use flex track? When you go to build I would suggest you use flex track and not snap track. You will end up with a much better finished product. 

I like these recomendations

Neil,

Thank you very much for your input.  I've implemented as much as I was able to understand.  

Your drawing of the changes to the yard were perfect, I can totally see how those switches were superfluous, thanks for saving me a hundred bucks or so!

I think I got the jist of the changes in Oyster Point, double track to where the depot is, maybe that depot doesn't even need to be there.  I also got an idea for the scene of that area. I'm thinking of a watermill, I've decided my era will be 1919 (The year my Grandfather was born).  I think water mills still ran in those days.  I have a lot of thinking to do about the industries and operations.  

I loved the idea of a REA/postal team track.  I will have to research that in more depth, operation wise. I think your drawing showed that in the top right corner near the yard right?

I color coded the stations blue so you can pick them out easier.  This seems to space the stops out pretty well so it won't feel like a local on the NJTransit. Selective compression isn't something I'm good at but I think I have enough country side for the trains to roll through to give a sense of they had a bit of a trip to the next town.

Looking forward to hearing more from you and everyone.  Scott

Embrace the space? Sometimes islands are worth considering

Scott,

Your getting good feedback on your layout plan and making good changes.  But all of the feedback accepts how you've your use of an donut as the basic layout shape.  If you'd like to enlighten us on why you chose how to use the space (or maybe I missed it), that might be helpful.

Modern track planning says it's best to go around the walls rather than put a blob in the middle of the room.  However, in your case your walls are not usable for a layout.  Instead, your walls are mostly isles, so best to put railroad along along them.

Did you consider using an Island?  This would remove the duck under and add isle along your windows

The Island would provide nearly the same square footage of railroad and provide easy access to the whole layout.  The curves might be tight if your using larger steam locomotives (greater than a 2-8-0).

What about a peninsula?  There is no reason the whole layout needs to have access all the way around

By connecting down to one wall, the layout turn back radius might be better.

Or you may find connecting to the other wall to work better

In addition to connecting to the left wall, I used the space of the Cassettes for more layout as I'd expect staging to be move to the left end of the layout.  Now the layout is nearly 30' long, that's substantial. You'd now have nearly 60' of mainline.

I'd probably make the layout 36-42" wide except at the looping ends.

At the lower right, is that the electrical box?

If you provide your givens and druthers you can probably get more help.  Things like:

1. Locomotives?
2. Minimum Mainline Radius
3. Scale (we know now HO standard)
4. Minimum Turnout Size
5. Operations (you seem to like passenger trains and yard switching)
   1. Through trains
   2. Terminal (trains from staging to a terminal)
   3. Point to Point (terminal to terminal)
6. Length of freight/passenger trains (number of cars)
7. Local/Region
8. Era
9. Scenes you'd like to include

Since this is your first layout....I suggest starting soon, do not look for the perfect railroad.  It's easy to rearrange track or even teardown a layout and start again.  Save the time (structures and rolling stock).

David Keith (http://www.sn2modeler.com)

Givens & Druthers

David,

Wow your post kind of blows my mind.  I think I was too much thinking in a box.  I knew I wanted  an around the wall shelf layout, but was "given" a room with virtually no usable walls.  I knew I wanted as long of a run as I could have so I thought of a 24x8 split down the middle but someone along the way suggested widening it and adding a center operator hole.  This made sense as it allowed wider radius on the end which is another of my "druther" of as wide a turn radius as possible and trying not to go below 18'' as I want to run passenger cars.

I'm totally going to work on a new plan incorporating these ideas.  In the mean time here are my Givens and druthers as I know them now.

Givens

• No shelf style around the room layout is possible due to windows and doors.

• Max space is an average of 9’ x 29

• Overhead lighting

Druthers

• Scale: HO

• Era: Steam - June 1919 Protolance railroad

• Region: South Central, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, west of Philadelphia east of Harrisburg

• Operations:

  • DCC

  • Automatic switching

  • Kadee de-coupling if possible.

  • While typical operations will be point to point

  • The option of continuous running, for rail fanning and engine break in.

  • Solo operations or small group of 3-4 people.

  • Passenger trains originating off layout proceeding through and then returning

    • Local trains

    • I don’t know if through trains make sense
      (I don’t understand in interchange lines well enough, I don’t want the premise of the RR to be a complete in-accuracy.)

  • Yard operations

    • sorting freight dropped from the interchange

    • Some will be distributed to local industry

    • Some will be sent through to eastbound interchange

  • Peddler trains distributing freight from interchange yard to local industries

• Bench work:​

  • Bench height will be 51’’

  • No duck unders or lift outs

  • No layout will be deeper than 24 inches from an edge

• Track:

  • Standard radius 22 or larger

  • Min Switches will be #4?
    (I still don’t understand this completely do I need to use #6 or larger to be compatible with the larger radius druther?)

  • Absolute min radius no less than 18’’

  • Large robust switch yard great for sorting capability.  The interchange will open up any type of car pretty much

  • Post office/REA/Team track

• Scenes:

  • Bustling yard with engine shop, rip track and ice house,

  • Dairy farm scene, milk will be one of the primary industries served by the line

  • Small run with a water mill on it.

  • Rolling farm land with some deep cuts through it

  • Some low mountain area with a tunnel possibly to hid the loop around.

  • One larger town where the main yard resides and two smaller stops with a nice run between them.

New Bench Work Layout

David's post opened my eyes to something I didn't see.  Some of my friends and I have a term for this kind of thing, we call it a "blinding glimpse of the obvious."  Clearly I was thinking too hard or something and ended up with a donut when I could have just had a nice clean double sided run DOH!

Does anyone see where I've gone off the rails with this idea?  

Scott

I know what you  mean about

I know what you  mean about the box. It can sometimes be a very warm and comfortable place that the idea of opening the lid to look out and around is daunting. Now that Keith has popped the lid!! the room does really lend itself to the island, or my go to for his sketches is the last one that looks like it gives you the longest possible run. 

One additional question or idea starter... Are you open to lower level staging. With the staging starting on the lower level it would allow you to add 3-5 storage tracks and still have enough room for a return loop at one end of the peninsula.  This would giv you a point to point (point to loop). With some thinking involved a return loop could easily be added at the terminal end of the visible run to facilitate continuous running. 

Your question about switches. 

a #4 is a very tight radius turnout. At best I would only consider using these in a freight yard where slow switching is done. On the mainline I would try to stick with a #6 switch. To totally understand turnouts I would google and see how much reading you want to do on the subject. The bottom line is in Model Railroad terms the larger the number the smoother the trackwork is going to be and the better the rolling stock will look and operate going through it.

This will be a fun thread to keep up with.

Thrown for a loop

Neil & Keith have certainly pointed out some great ideas! I sort of liked the donut to separate operators but the island style layout would proved a lot of room to move around the layout and, maybe more importantly, give you the sense is going somewhere by not being able to see the whole layout at a glance. 

One addition might be a branch line down along the windows. This could be 6"-8" wide and terminate with the cassette at an interchange. The electrical box will need access so leave a drop down leaf or gate at that end so you have access when not running the railroad. 

Staging is one of those things that Mrs. doesn't understand but really expands the layout to beyond the modeled portion of even a fictitious railroad.  This has become a thread well worth watching as so many great ideas are pouring out!

The #4 turnout

Has a 15-22 inch radius depending on the manufacturer. A #5 would have about 26 inch radius so would be preferable. I'd shoot for a minimum radius of 24 inches which should work well for old time era equipment. I'd also stick to the around the room concept by building along the window wall ( I build across windows all the time, either by running backdrops right across or by leaving the backdrop out at the windows depending on what's outside to look at) then using as large a radius curve as possible at each end ,maximizing the width of the layout.  Sharp curves viewed from the center look much better than sharp curves viewed from the outside,and a larger oval shape would eliminate the barbell turnbacks needed at each end of the long narrow peninsula design. Before building anything you should get a copy and study John Armstrong's " Track Planning for Realistic Operation" ,it has all the data such as turnout radius, minimum curve radius for different type equipment, yard design and how the parts interact, etc. Should be able to find a copy on ebay for less than $10.......DaveB