Never say Never........etc.

Rob:

As you have alluded ("the kiss of death") one should never say never.

I like your new hat! And the bandana.

Would you refresh my memory (presuming you mentioned it early on in your first posts); what software did you use to produce the track printouts?  Was it XTrack Cad or something else?

Looking forward to the new installments of your progress.

Clearance?

How much clearance is there between the staging yard and the underside of the Glanton benchwork? When I place my hand around a loco to rerail it, the top of my wrist is 6" above the plywood.

pqe

Looking Forward...

to the next chapter in the continuing saga that is the C&A. Can't wait to see what you do with the lower level.

Good luck.

Cad, hats, clearance and dreams

Chuck - I do indeed use XTrak Cad and am a great fan. It does everything I want of it and more. The plan was done in July 2012, the battens fitted to the wall in January 2013 and the helix built in February 2013. However I have absolute confidence that everything is going to line up with the lower levels because of using Xtrak.

The hat, bandana and fake cigarillo (I don't smoke) are accompanied by a duster coat and some guns - it was a cowboy themed event

pqe - "How much clearance is there between the staging yard and the underside of the Glanton benchwork?"

Honest answer - Not enough (at just over 4 inches ......)

 

This is the weakest point of design on the C&A - because of the very small room, I have to minimize the gradient (it's just over 3%) between the staging and Cornhill by keeping staging as high up as possible. 
I think it's workable because I won't be using staging for anything other than "store and forward" e.g. no cars will be manually added or removed. Lots of care in the track work construction, plus some automatic re-railers at the end of each track should do the trick.

Rick - thank you. I am as curious as you (probably more curious) as to how this is going to develop.
One feature that is a definite is a BIG trestle and trees scene that will join Cornhill and Glanton
I think we may call it Klyzr Gulch 

Rob Clark
Cornhill & Atherton RR

Sticks and Tigers

Hi Rob

I think your Irish friend Murphy must be rubbing his hands in glee.  While I have no doubt that your build quality will be absolutely impeccable as always, it seems brave to build staging so close to Glanton above. 

Have you considered making parts of the Glanton section removable in case of worst case scenarios.  I had similar concerns with my staging reversing loop. It is in a nightmare location access wise but with a fair amount of Houdini contortion I can at least get to it if something fails.

Looking forward to following your progress.

Following! 

Following! 

Great

Great new profile picture Rob! I am also really looking forward to the progress on this next section.

4 inches should be enough for

4 inches should be enough for what you are doing. IF you wanted to instead of making the top removable, make your staging removable so you can take to a work bench if it needs major work.

You have 3 tracks according to your plan and things are not that deep so you should be able to make do with less than the ideal amount of space. You are really raising the bar on the small layout vs the basement, attic, outbuilding filler type of layout. Clever design and fantastic execution Rob.

...

I have tried this before, the hidden staging with minimal clearance.  I can tell you from experience that it is very tight.  I will also add the layer above will not be moved once you install the railroad above - it will be rigid.  This means I dare say you want the switches positioned in an area where you do have a removable panel that covers them, or position them in a space where it is possible to get to them.   To get more length, you may even consider putting the switch ladder on your grade, though this means there are now tree tracks with the grad transition in them and not just one.

It's a tight issue, you have my sympathy.

 "make your staging removable

That's probably the best idea.It could sit on a shelf and be held in place by something like those Kam clamps or even plain old bolts and wingnuts, then if there's a problem just unhook and slide it out to fix....DaveB 

Or ..

Consider putting the whole yard on drawer guides. You Brits are clever with these things and I've seen staging done in a way that no switches would even be needed - just slide the yard forward or back to line up the tracks. 

I didn't make any space to reach into my three track staging but it would have nice to be able fiddle some cars. 

Works for Me

The Willoughby line has 7" of clearance in staging and I have had no problems with the set-up going on 10 years now. I followed Tony K.s example and designed the yard with turnouts right next to the aisle. I have switch motors in the space that cut clearance don to the minimums being discussed here. I generally don't reach in for stuff and most items are less than a foot from the access point.

I did add re-railers to all of the sidings and at critical spots in the 300 feet of hidden track in the staging and other areas. I found that they help minimally but they have a drawback in that they can be hard to clean. In my experience, high quality track work and rolling stock standards will make the difference between success or not with this type of set up.

Lots of my friends have similar set-ups in terms of tight spaces for staging. Not recommended but sometimes unavoidable. Most of us make it work through high standards in terms of track and trains. I do like the idea of a removable access from above or the yard on sliders (Check out Mark Dance's work).

Guy

Transfer table?

Making the whole yard into a pull-out transfer table is intriguing, but I suspect moving the yard would be the most common cause of derailments. It would be hard to build a smooth enough action on a section that long. Just make sure you have extra clearance over the turnouts, even if you have to narrow the middle deck a bit.

pqe

Really long sliding staging

While on a layout tour a few years ago, I found that one of the layouts had a very, very long staging yard that slid out from underneath the layout: 

Amazingly, it seemed quite stable. 

 "one of the layouts had a

that reminds me of the 89 quake, every car on my storage shelves landed on it's side on the south side of the tracks......DaveB 

Sliding staging

Jeff, I saw something like the sliding staging in an old Model Railroad Planning magazine, and plan to use it on the permanent layout, with the sliding part access from the layout side and the back side in a different room. That way an engineer could see his train entering or leaving staging, and a staging operator could set up new trains during an operating session. The other great part about it, no turnouts needed! Jim

Removable

If the drawer slides won't work for you, consider making the staging itself removable. The straight sections on each side could be made to lift out, then the staging yard could slide forward. You wouldn't operate it like this, but when Murphy comes calling (guaranteed it will be at the hardest to reach spot) then you can pull that section out to fix it, or pick up those cars that have been knocked over that you can't quite reach!

Staging dropdown

Or could you have the staging lower down instead? Might be more engineering though than sliding forward.

My staging yard of four tracks is actually on a transfer table not for access but to save on turnouts - you slide it in and out to line up storage tracks with the outbound track.

 "The straight sections on

Yeah, it wouldn't need to be routinely removed but having the staging in removable sections for maintenance or repairs would be a good option. The staging could be designed to sit on supporting shelves or brackets with a few easy to undo fasteners or latches to hold them in place. I've never tried to work on a yard with 4 inch vertical clearance but it doesn't sound like fun :> ) .........DaveB

Live by the sword - die by the sword

Wow - an avalanche of ideas !

I had considered pull out/ slide out options and I have reconsidered them as a result of the feedback you guys have given me. However, I keep coming to the same conclusion which is that introducing potentially complex solutions to solve a 'might happen' will probably create new opportunities for things to fail.

Anything that involves track bed removal means that you need disconnected (i.e no rail joiner) track, so probably soldered to screws or copper clad ties glued to the road bed. Each of these is a potential misalignment point over time as wood shrinks/expands due to age and climactic issues.
 
As far as the main part of the staging tracks are concerned there are no moving parts and in the event of a derail I can reach the outer track ok and if the problem is on the center or rear track and trains are in staging I just have a bit of shunting to do - no big deal for the odd occasion it might occur. Also, if it does happen then there has to be a suspect piece of rolling stock, so rigorous 'bad car' follow up procedures will be standard practice.

Switch motors will be below staging, so accessible for most issues. The only problem I can see are the 2 switches at each end of the yard. They are right at the front edge of the road bed so can be reached relatively easily for cleaning an minor issues They will be hand built and rigorously tested before installation. Also, I will make the scenery above them  removable(ish) so that in the case of a complete disaster I can get at them :
 

The same strategy will be in pace at the other end of the yard.

The more difficult decision is about the switch motors that will sit under Glanton yard. As has been pointed out, these need positioning so that they don't interfere with trains on the staging tracks. I am considering not using switch motors at all (flip a switch versus click a tie bar with a skewer - not much difference really!) or mounting them at the front of the base board, probably on their side. Jury is out on this for the moment - next month's problem.

There is a subtle difference between "planning for failure" and "planning for success". I use both strategies depending on who gets hurt and how much by a problem. In this case it's just a model railroad and I am the only person that gets inconvenienced, so I am going to keep the design as simple as  possible.

Easy to say I know , but right now I feel very positive that the simpler approach will do. I could spend a huge amount of time implementing  something very clever that never gets used. Time will tell if I am making the right decision.......
Thank you all for your ideas and encouragement

Rob Clark
Cornhill & Atherton RR

Some well meant suggestions

Since you are locked into the clearance, I suggest you take every step possible to maximize what you've got. Instead of the wooden supports shown for the middle deck, use angle iron, with the lip turned up. That will give maximum clearance and support easily removable sections. You can attach fascia to this with magnets.

I have every confidence you can build reliable turnouts, but I am less sanguine about wheel issues. You may want to install rerailers on the frog side of the turnouts. (These may have to be cut short to fit your curves.)

I'm looking forward to the next stage.

pqe

" I will make the scenery

    That should take care of any major disasters. I think repairing the points would be the most likely thing to consider, basic track is pretty reliable and cleaning would be manageable in 4 inches of space. I think the decision to make the staging removable depends on one's skills, you are a scenery master but I could build removable staging easier than I could build removable scenery above it. :> ) ......DaveB

Laminate foam underlay

PQE - the angle iron idea is very good and should give me an extra inch of access height. I was thinking of removable valance, but hadn't reached any conclusions about how to do it. Magnets seem a good approach. I can glue a light ply former to the back of the valance to curve it to fit the baseboard to keep the weight down and give the magnets the best chance - thanks

Dave - In my case I'm steering clear of the removable option. Simple is a simple does .
I may regret it, but the removable scenery is more within my grasp than removable staging.

The staging baseboard is all in and I have used a rubber based glue to apply my secret weapon - thin laminate floor underlay. This provides sound deadening and a firm but flexible base for the track work:

 
Next I'll transfer the Xtrak CAD 1:1 plan details to the foam and then it's on with turnout building and track laying

Rob Clark
Cornhill & Atherton RR

Turnouts and switch decisions

Ok - basic markup of track positions done and I spent this afternoon making up fresh jigs for the 2 *left and 2 * right; number 5 turnouts that I need for the staging tracks.

Big cheer for Fast Tracks. Excellent turnout templates and components - highly recommended.

 

I'm having a think about the  best way to control the turnouts. I will be using Tortoises and I think the safest option is to have a single control to select one of the three staging tracks available and align the turnouts at each end together. That way I cannot have a misalignment on the entry and exit turnouts for a track.
As a lone wolf operator I will never be bringing a train into one staging track at the same time as another is leaving.
The only other decision on routing, is to use a fascia mounted switch, or DCC control the routes. I know my NCE PowerCab can be macro programmed to manage the route options, but sometimes (and this is a very small room) its easier and quicker to just click a switch!

Rob Clark
Cornhill & Atherton RR