George Sellios

I love the detail that George Sellios puts into his Franklin and South Manchester but there is something that also bothers me and I think it is his lack of negative space. Every inch is filled with detail until it becomes overwhelming. No disrespect to his talents, he is a great modeler, but this is just an observation.

I think it depends on the era

I think it depends on the era and location being modeled. For example in a rural environment there are places that will be completely the domain of nature. In modern times there will be lots of business space not worth the taxes owed that will become brown fields. In older time periods many urban areas will be nearly completely occupied with nothing but alleys and the occasional "courtyard" for open space.

Even the empty spots are still occupied by something, soil, grass, pavement etc. It takes some skill and talent to model the nothing as it does to model something.

"Modeling the nothing" - I love it!

Rob,

Well said!  You are correct in that the negative space doesn't mean that there is nothing at all - even white space has white.  It is difficult to model the lesser detailed areas with something that doesn't compete or overwhelm other areas.

Greg - how much is enough?

And how much is too much?  It is very subjective and I believe that the layout owner is the final judge as it must be pleasing them him (or her).  I love George's work and his layout and just wish that someday I can see it in person!

A funny story - a friend of mine once asked me what my favorite color was.  When I replied "blue" he proceeded to argue with me of why it shouldn't be blue!

I love the detail that George

You all know that George is one of my role models but I would have to agree, he is kind of overdoing it. His craftmanship is awesome but there's too much of it on the layout. I'm trying not to fall into that trap which is why I try to keep as much separation between towns as possible.

I've got the negative space

I've got the negative space thing totally covered!  My problem is I need to put some stuff in the scenes - working on that.

 "George is one of my role

I think the problem is he's trying to model a scene that would be bustling with activity but in a static state which just accentuates the lack of movement. It's like the layout with a baseball diamond where the pitcher has been halfway thru his windup for 20 years. Much easier to model a scene where movement is not necessary to the visual acceptance , a coyote laying in the grass waiting for prey for instance, or an old guy sitting on a bench at the depot.....DaveB 

Informed detail

Great topic! Negative space gives the eyes a place to rest and acts as a transition between scenes. There is no magic formula, but I have found the concept of "informed detail" to be extremely helpful. Simply put, informed detail is story specific and only gets put into a scene in order to support the narrative. Detail for detail sake leads to visual clutter and confusion. Natural scenery aside, most details are evidence of human activity. A simple test I use when putting something into a scene is to ask: "who's is/was it?" If I can't come up with an answer, it goes back in the drawer and not on the layout.

What about negative space within a scene?

I'm just starting construction on the first scene in a layout I've been planning for about 5 years.  I model in HO and while I have a large space (32x40 building) it's not unlimited space, so selective compression is required. 

One of the important things for me is making sure that the open space in the scene was not compressed so much that it changed the scene and made it look like I had crammed everything into too small of a space.  This first module is 4x12 and it tapers down to about 8 inches at one end.  I know there are nice looking complete layouts built in spaces smaller then that.  I could have compressed it farther and placed tracks that will be on the adjoining module onto it, but it just didn't look right when I built the mockup.  It looked too busy.  I am modeling a specific prototype location so I lost some freedom in how things went together. 

There are open spaces within many scenes, and I think we lose something if we choose to fill them with something because we built a structure and need a place to put it.

3-D Tapestry and WWQ

I look at pictures of George Sellios' work, and it reminds me of intricately detailed tapestries or Persian rugs.Lots of little stuff there, which makes a very textured 'background' with major pieces still easilt seen. I'm quite content to admire and even envy such work. The wonder is not only that it was done, but that somebody wanted to do it and did it so well. George's F&M is like a 3-dimensional version of the tapestry.

I think most modelers are aware also of the layouts of John Allen and Allen McClelland. Both well done but with levels of detail quite different from each other and certainly from George's. Maybe we could define something like a Where's Waldo Quotient, WWQ, to describe the variation. George is way to the high value, John's less so, and Allen's even less so. No implication of relative value, since all are terrific, but just a description of density of detail. I don't know quite where to set the minimum value for WWQ. My own Plywood Pacific could qualify, but should it be at zero or at a negative value?

DrJolS

Negative space - asset or liability?

I'm tackling this from a photographer's perspective using three concepts, bokeh (pronounced roughly like "a bouquet" of flowers), crop and wide angle.

There are trends in photography just as in model railroading, in North America the sharp photo is what the photographer is after and much equipment is dedicated to this endeavor.  In Japan and other areas in Asia, bokeh is highly prized.  Below is a photo of a butterfly I took, the "negative" area around it is considered to have a smooth buttery out of focus tone to it, enough to provide colour but not enough detail to compete with the butterfly - this is bokeh: 

Most non-photographers are aware of what "cropping" a photo is, a technique to remove the unnecessary extraneous, or to call attention to the subject only.  The next photo is an image of a young woman I took using bokeh and crop to only call attention to her, this was a street photography project I was doing.  The reason for the crop and bokeh is to remove all the boats that were competing for attention, unless I tell you the background is all boats you would be hard pressed to tell.  The crop was to remove the unnecessary details that would compete with the image.

But by not cropping, you can add "contextuality" to the scene, if I cropped in closely to the freight traffic, the image would be just another picture of train cars.

But you can crop out too much.  One professor at one of our local universities teaching street photography says you loose contextuality if you leave too much out. Context is kind of like the "texture" of the photograph. Below is a photo of a woman working at a pub next door, she is on a smoke break, no she isn't a hooker as many think when I display this photo.  But ala Lance Mindheim, do I leave the open bag of Mc Donalds goodies with the chips by it on the ground or do I edit it out?  I am guessing Lance would say leave the bag and chips in the photo, it adds to the believable atmosphere, as you can see I choose to leave the bag in. Street photography is the easiest to "blow" by cropping in too close, the "negative" space helps set the tone.

So you can enhance negative space (wide angle) or create a kind of impressionistic atmosphere (bokeh) or you can reduce it as much as possible.

So is negative space an asset or liability.  The more you use negative space the more context or atmospheric texture you add to layout.  If you are modeling a passenger train through Canadian or American rockies, you want some large spectacular mountains which probably don't add to industry interest or switching opportunities (talking the modern era here) but does add the believability of the Rockies being just that, much mountainous terrain.

But if your layout is highlighting an intense yard switching area, negative space could prove to be a waste.  

So negative space can be either an asset or liability depending on focus and intention.

Yup

My layout has quite a few empty spaces between points of interest.  It's by design and I have no intention of filling those up.

Scenes with just right of way help the busier ones feel farther apart, reinforcing the idea that some parts of the layout are intended to be in the middle of nowhere.

Negative Space or Transitional Scene?

For me the negative space is the blank wall containing the framed model scene (usually behind glass).

So to move from detailed area to detail area (town, industries, trestle) there should be areas of less detail character, similar to the out of focus backgrounds of photos, these would be the fields, woods, rock faces, etc. 

For myself, I can't call them Negative Spaces.

But I agree with the concept.

Operational negative space

Think of this thread in the light of the rants against the "basement empires" that go on in the forums, the concentration on the industrial switching layout, a la Mindhiem.  What the larger layouts include is "operational" negative space.  Running room is a form of negative space.  An ISL generally has minimal operational negative space.  Its not until you get multiple stations and separate them by a noticeable gap that you can get operational negative space.

Great Suggestion

Great suggestion and important topic that gets overlooked.  Although I "disagree" with the concept of "moving around" versus building "in a continuous course" towards layout completion.

I find by using the continuous course route, I can see actual progress as I move towards the finish line of completing the layout.  "Negative space" can still be implemented if you plan accordingly. 

The term "negative space" might be a little confusing but once explained you see the value. Even a small layout can benefit from something as simple as a row of trees, small area of grass, parking lot, etc... to bring more focus and attention to key areas on your layout.  (That wonderful structure you are proud of for example)

Not to mention it helps portray a more realistic layout overall. 

Of course "negative space" does not have to be totally void of interest.  One idea I have considered implementing is modeling remains of a roadbed that ties-in with my active line.  "A ghost from a line or railroad long gone."   An abandoned truck trailer or vehicle added to your field, old wall, etc.. are other good options for a "negative space" that add interest without being too overpowering.

Joe

I agree with this premise

I agree with it so much that I wrote a blog post about it - 

http://centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com/2014/05/white-space-and-model-railroader.html

I also use this same basic philosophy on my layout. In fact, the entire story of the development of my home layout is one of gradually focusing in on less and less of the prototype. 

Availability

"RSN48"

"Is she available in HO Scale?" 

Joe

How much?

Indeed, as with any work of art it is subjective. The one who has to be pleased is the artist. I also see this in art. When taking a course one time, we studied some art in relation to the subject. There was SO much going on in the painting it took hours to discuss it all. Contrast this with something like the Mona Lisa. One focused subject. Yet, you could discuss it for hours as well, but in a different way. As with your favorite color, there is no one "right" answer. 

Yup Wed, 2016-03-16 16:19 —

I think the issue I am having right now might be terminology but Rob's scenes above are beautiful examples to me of full scenes in that he has modeled the tracks and nature. There is nothing that does not belong or looks out of place nor is there something that appears to be missing. Instead of nothing he has modeled something and it looks fantastic. I agree with the concept that not every inch needs to have a building or siding but think the folks that have mastered this are doing much more than modeling nothing.

THERE IS NO NEGATIVE SPACE IN THE REAL WORLD

I was enjoying this thread, years ago as a art and architecture student we were taught the theory what is left over is the negative space but it had to be interesting and part of the whole, so really it was a element too and could be played with like any other shape.

Over the many years since harmony, contrast and a sing factor became more important until balance was achieved.

Rest for our eyes now and then is another way of putting it.

To me a good layout is hectic in spots,  peaceful (with enough detail (interest) to save one going to sleep) in others and the majority where you want it to be, balance comes from how much of each is used,this is so very individual particularly in layouts. Good design rules apply to all things.

I have taken a few years to change over to a model maker but I see the light at the end of the tunnel, getting there is the fun bit even though it was a lot slower than I first thought.

Regards to all

Kenn down under in Aus..

There is no magic formula,

Well said. Even scenes that are supposed to be cluttered can look "wrong" if there isn't some thought put into it.

 "Even scenes that are

I think a lot of it comes from our compressed scenes. Folks often compress the scene but don't keep a realistic ratio of detail to area. A small prototype yard might be 1/4 mile long and contain 10 cars so if we model it 8 feet long in HO with 10 cars it's gonna look more crowded. The trick is knowing what to include and what to leave out instead of just putting everything in and moving it all closer together. I think the best layouts are the one's that leave out features and choose what will fit with minimal compression instead of trying to make everything fit...DaveB

I have seen that before

The negative spaces that wp8thsub has modeled actually look very much like the mid reaches of the Columbia River thru washington, just without the river. Miles and miles of that kind of scenery. Rock outcroppings, grasslands, cuts and fills and a whole lot of rip rap. Really good grouse habitat. Its the kind of scenery that makes you want to slow down and enjoy it.

I remember reading about the

I remember reading about the F&SM, and where George Sellios debated the use of points of interest.

To allow 6" of space between the scenes. Some might say it's to little, but to each bis own.