Runaround

I'm very new at this myself, but your runaround seems just a tad short to me. It looks like, from the schematics provided, your runaround has space for just 1 or 2 cars, while your sidings have room for 3 or 4. Unless you're planning on using the middle two tracks at the left side of the plan for something else, I might consider lengthening that runaround. 

But again, I'm new and I don't know much. 

Brax

Add Industry to Pro Vista Siding

I would suggest adding a second industry to the Pro Vista Siding.  Its adds challenge when you must switch a car out of the way to reach into a second industry on a spur.

Also number your loading doors on the Warehouse industry.  Again, when you feel like a challenge you can have your switch lists specify a specific door for a car drop.

Glad you didn't give up totally Paul

I have an N scale switching layout on a couple of doors so I can relate with what you said.  I think your track plan looks fine.  Just make sure that you can uncouple everywhere using a pick without any issues.  If you are running DCC like me, there isn't any reason why you can't have slow speed running.  I have TCS decoders installed in Atlas engines and they wil just crawl along very slowly.  You just need to have high quality engines.  Lance Mindheim has some great ideas to follow.  Why not follow what he's done with the sound in some headphones.  That's what I did.  Bought a Tsunami sound decoder and mounted in a box under the layout and I just plug my headphones into where the speaker should be.  You will never match the fullness with those little N scale speaker.  Besides you don't have to fool around trying to fit a sound system into that little switcher.  If you buy another loco with the same prime mover you are already to go.  Think about it Paul.  It makes a lot of sense.  If you do not have,or plan on DCC, then what I would suggest is a PWM (pulse width modulation) hand held throttle.  There are a few good ones on the market to choose from.  They will make a DC engine creep, just like DCC.  You would have to go to a different stand alone sound system with this scenario.  Looking forward to seeing your switching layout come to life.

Thanks everyone!

thanks for all the replies, some very helpful input!

Michael - I actually did do the 'under layout' sound system, using a Soundtraxx decoder plugged in to my speakers via DCC. It works fine, but doesn't have the same 'feeling' as having the sound in the loco - its almost disembodied, and its almost too loud. In terms of switchers, I have a Kato NW2, which is a lovely loco, and performs really well, but just not as well as i have seen HO run; Also a significant problem with doing N scale in the UK is getting hold of parts - HO is easier, but N scale is really hard - even simple things like cars or signs have to be ordered at great expense from overseas, or i have to make do with what i can find in european shops. Its a shame to give up on a layout, but im viewing it as a learning experience, and taking that forward to bigger and better things (I hope!!)

BraxG - Good spot. I also realised i had put a turnout right on a baseboard joint. I've extended the runaround a bit. I was intending the side runs to be available for temporary spotting of cars to wait for space, as suggested in some of the Mindheim books.

WACampbell - Great suggestions. I've added an extra industry to the spur. 

Current design below:

Interesting design

I think this design has great potential!  I was trying to run the switch job in my head and agree that the run-around needs to be longer. Either all the cars you need to switch in one job need to fit into the run-around, and/or you need a complete train's length to the left or right of the layout I think. 

So hopefully you can add a drop-down extension or a "shelf around the corner" to allow this. Here's my suggestion for the runaround:

Assuming the train comes in from the right side, then you only need an engine's length at "A" so you can run around. At "B" you could consider using a left-hand switch to maximize the "long side" of the run-around and eliminate the "S" curve as well.

I think th best way to get operational interest and variety would be to designate each spot at each industry with its own car type and "dwell time". The varying loading/unloading durations could be set so that the total number of lifts and set-outs per session would fit in the "long side" A-B track of the run-around. Different cars would need to be moved and re-spotted each time for some variety.

Not sure what era you're modeling, but I tried it with a Caboose in the mix and my brain exploded...  But I am sure there are some seasoned operators around here who can make it seem a lot easier than I just did.        

Pete

run around length...

I'm wondering if i've misunderstood the way that a run around is used on a US railroad, because everyone seems to be suggesting making the run around the full length of the train (i.e. including wagons?). In the UK a run around is just used to move the train from the front to the back of the wagons, so to change direction of the train effectively. Are they different in the states? 

If it makes any difference, i only plan to use one switching engine on this layout. It will be a long (long) time before i can afford two sound equipped locos! 

Thanks for the input!

-Paul

Run arounds...

It seems to me that your question contradicts itself. Maybe I'm missing something. You say people are telling you that it needs to be the length of a train, but in the UK you only use it to move the engine from one end of a train to the other. If you're going to run the engine from one end of the train to the other, the run around needs to be the length of the train. 

Not trying to give you the run around...

...honest! 

I was just thinking about how one might operate the layout. If the job is a "turn", then the train will depart whence it came once finished. So the loco will have to run around the entire train unless pushing some or all cars down the main is allowed. To run around, I think you need to have all the cars (and caboose if applicable) in a siding where the loco can uncouple, move ahead onto an adjacent track, run down that track past the entire train and then be able to cross back onto the original track and couple onto the cars. If there's a caboose there, then you could pull that, put it onto the run around track, go back and pull the train down the main, back it onto the caboose and you're ready to leave town.    

One problem with a short run-around is that you have to make a lot of moves to run around short cuts of cars, and you need to be able to push at least a train's length down the main past a switch where you can complete the final "train assembly" run-around move before you leave town. As you may not have the luxury of main line each side of town, I felt maximizing the run around length would be a Good Thing. 

But I may be way off on how you plan to operate the layout...

Pete 

I just re-read what i wrote

I just re-read what i wrote about run arounds' and yeah, not sure what i was thinking about TBH. Lets just put it down to my son being ill at the moment, and me being sleep deprived  

Following everyone's advice I've made the run around much longer, and it does seem to make the layout make more sense. It also seems more open (all the switches aren't crowded in the center), and gives me space to put in roads and other features in the middle - What Mindheim calls 'scenery only' areas i believe. So that's good. 

I also made the change that gp9u suggested - I really like the shape of the right hand side now, feels more 'railroady' to me, although i admit, i have little real knowledge in these things... 

New design pics below, first the track plan, then second showing how many 60' box cars fit in each area...

Thanks again for all the input everybody, feels like we're homing in on a fun little layout 

-Paul

Better but...

... I still think you should move the left end switches further to the left. Otherwise the space at "A" in my earlier drawing is wasted. I think you can get either 5 or 6 cars (or 5 and a caboose) in the long (say south) side of the runaround. Why does that matter? Basically because max inbound train length must fit in that space so you can run around to switch the facing spurs and leave town again. You only need your loco to fit in the space at "A" because you don't need "headroom" on the south track as there are no trailing spurs to pull.  

Here's how I am thinking about this: I assumed the train comes in from the right curved track (say east) which is longer than drawn on a drop-down or cassette. I have a max train length set by the runaround or I'm going to get stuck with the loco in between cars at the end. So I have 6 cars max. I have 11 industry spots so clearly I can't switch them all in one session. I can spot up to 6 and leave town with up to 6.

So here's my stab at how it might go:

The inbound train must be blocked with Warehousing on the head end. I drop the rest of the train on the main and pull onto the north track with the Warehousing cars. I switch them out including any re-ordering and re-spotting, then push the lifts back down the main onto the train. The total number of cars in the train must still be 6 max. I pull the whole train ahead into the south track where the 6 cars fit because I'm on the "long" side of the runaround.

Then I run around the whole cut via the now empty north track. Now I can switch out the Team track, Pro Vista and Pyramid using the main as my lead. I may move every car during this stage and re-spot or re-order several. Then I can leave town to the east with all 6 cars behind the loco. Of course you can leave town with everything except any cars on the Warehouse spur if you want, and you have enough headroom on the east main.  

If you're worried about a 6 car train not giving a lot of action, don't be! If all the spots were full but you can only set out and lift 6, you might still need to move all 17 cars on the layout at least once in a session.

Then the next session you'd switch the 5 or 6 cars that weren't switched in the first session. If you add some varying dwell times and other realistic restrictions (see link below) you can make this very involving, and each session a bit different from the last.  

In fact some spots would likely be empty, maybe for a few sessions, so you can vary the total number of moves per session quite a lot. Just keep to 6 cars max into town. You could leave with more than 6 sometimes, fewer other times.   

Check this out:

http://oscalewcor.blogspot.ca/2010/09/stretching-simple-spur.html

Look at the 18 moves Jack had to make to basically switch 4 car spots in real life.

I hope this helps with seeing all the operating potential you have in this great design!

Pete

Get rid of the industry

Get rid of the industry called "Warehousing" - it is a gimmick.

Regards

Shelton

Thanks!

Hi all,

Pete - Thanks for the detailed write up, and the link. It was very helpful in working through the operations. Based on that, I printed the plan and some locos out at 1/10 HO scale, and have spent this evening playing with them and trying a variety of operations out. It showed up some interesting problems:

1.) I had the layout 'the wrong way round'. Assuming trains enter from the east, i wouldn't be able to fit a cassette on that side, due to the layout of my study. That meant i would only be able to move on one box car at a time, 2 possibly if i rejigged. This led me to flip the layout horizontally, so that trains now enter from the west. Whilst the entry is still limited, i can at least add a cassette in the future

2.) The Team track was too big. I've reduced it to be 3 car slots instead

3.) I reduced the west (now east) side of the run around. too much space wasted for nothing to go in to, except the train itself

4.) I move the 'entry' turnouts and the turnout leading to 'warehousing' (now called DT varnish - Im reading a book about the DTRR and it was one of their big customers, and kinda caught my imagination!), so they have longer leading sides.

The one thing i'm now wondering is if i should put DT varnish on its own spur, which would mean i had the current spur there for car storage. Or if i would just be introducing complexity for the sake of it.

In the meantime, Im considering adding a caboose to the whole puzzle. 

Thanks again for the input everyone!

-Paul

"i wouldn't be able to fit a

   Moving the tracks all around trying to get enough operating length makes N scale look pretty attractive doesn't it :> )    Looks like you have the best solution now, the run around looks like it could handle 6 car trains so if you can add a temporary staging for a 6 car train on the left end you'll be in business.If you want a road crossing it will have to fall on the turnout at the left end of the passing track so as to not conflict with the operating tracks.That blank space beyond the tracks could be parking lots or storage lots for the industries on each side of it......DaveB 

Excellent!

Paul, it's great that you mapped out the layout and ran through some moves. It can be an eye opener to see how much empty track headroom one needs even for simple lifts and set outs.  

I'd keep DT where it is. It's really on its own spur if the "main" curves down to the west. Plus I don't think you really need car storage as well as the 9-10 industry spots. Empty headroom on the main and run-around for switching moves will be more useful imho.

If you can't add a cassette or drop down yet on the west end of the main, here's one suggestion for operating: You could think of the long side (south track) of the runaround as an interchange track. During the night a passing transfer job drops off a cut of up to 5-6 cars in the south track for various spots on the layout. This would be done by hand on/off layout until you get your cassette.

The switcher loco actually belongs to one of the industries (or the "industrial park") which has a contract to switch all the industries. The switcher could be tied up on one of the switch leads - maybe DT, next to a small Diesel tanker truck or crew van between sessions.

In one session you'd switch out the up to 6 cars and drop the lifts back into the south track for the transfer to pick up that night. I bet there's an hour's work here given the need to move, re-spot and re-position cars as well as the lifts and set-outs like in Jack Hill's story.

Each session the cars moving will be different depending on how long each car takes to load/unload. Given the industry types you have, it seems you could have at least tank cars, boxcars, hoppers and flat cars. You'd have a chance to use maybe 3-4 different sets of cars stored off layout that rotate through a few sessions until you're back to starting over.       

I think the only limitation now if there's really no way to extend the main to the west, is that you might have to double over the Pro Vista and Pyramid cars between the north and south tracks before you runaround to switch DT, as there won't be enough headroom to do it in one move. But that's a small price to pay given how much operation you've fitted into the space.     

FUN!!!  

Pete

Looks great!

Paul,

I think your track plan looks great! I'm going to copy it for part of my layout.

Overpass

Hi Paul,

Consider an overpass to get a road thru the layout without causing track issues.

It implies you're in an urban area where space is at a premium.

If you put it on the end of the layout...you can use a mirror beneath it to add to the apparent length of the layout.

I'm going to bookmark this

I'm going to bookmark this thread for future reference.  I hope to do a small shelf layout and this will prove helpful.

overpass

I did exactly what Bruce suggested on my O scale switching layout. The type of overpass I used was a trolley line and I also did installed a mirror underneath it to make the layout looked as if it continued. Here is a photo of the overpass at one end of the switching layout. 

9 x 1 switcher

I am at the stage of "thinking through" a new switching layout heavily influenced by "the Mindheim approach" so am in a similar headspace to yours. I have a bit different suggestion for your layout. Try shifting the warehouse to the left, but give it its own siding. Then you could do without the runaround. I think this will eliminate two turnouts, open the right side for scenery (a stream running through?) and possibly some road(s). The plan would become more prototypical. As was suggested by another commentator, be sure to number the doors on the warehouse and other industry. Also, put in some variation in the number of "days" needed for loading/unloading cars. This gives you the need to pull some cars to access spots, but then return those cars to their spots. As Flanders and Swann sang, "It all makes work for the working man to do."

Mindheim Approach

I wish I would've read my book before I started my switching layout. His approach are awesome, prototype and very inexpensive to do !!! Simplicity at it's best !!!

Where are you coming from? Where are you going?

Your most recent design is very attractive, but I think you might find it more satisfying to operate if you answer these questions, if only for yourself.

1.  What is the area modeled?  Is it a mainline with sidings?  Is it an industrial park switched by trains in passing while on their way to somewhere else?  Is it the end of a branch line (not GW!)?  If it is a branch line, does the modeled portion connect to the main line just off stage or do you assume quite a long (imaginary) run to the junction?

2. Where are the cars coming from and where are they going?  Do they enter stage right and depart stage left or do they, as on the end of a branch line, depart the way they arrived?  

Assume that most of the train is left on a siding off the mainline, both of which are off stage.  Are cars pushed on stage or pulled on stage? Does the engine need to run around them for the departure move?  Do all the cars for a particular operating session need to arrive on stage at the same time or could they arrive in smaller cuts?  

Could the engine push on all the cars for facing point drops, do the pickups, and depart engine first before returning (engine still first) with all the trailing point switching?  In this case, the first cut could be removed via cassette and replaced with new cars in the same way?  If you don't want to add and subtract cars by hand you could have the space-eating runaround moves happen off stage (Locolift?) if at all or even between sessions.

3.  I don't understand the negative comment on the warehouse.  Could the poster elucidate?

Extending track with curveded switches

Great work !  It's almost as much fun designing as it is in running trains.  You were mentioning use of a cassette or drop down.  If you take the left most switch, in front of DR industry, and preferably the one facing it also,  and substitute curved switches, you will be well on your way to having the track come out toward the front of the layout.  This would bring a drop down leaf out into the people area.  Peco makes, and I use their curved switches with good success.  Solved a lot of track plan problems for me on my small layout.

I usually have 6 to 7 cars arriving in my main town&yard.  Switching can take anywhere from 30 to 90 mins.  It's all fun. That's real minutes.  90 mins is almost like work!

Adding a view block such as bridge, large trees, buildings does do a lot for making the layout look longer.  It also adds to your perception that the train "went that way".  You will find yourself actually sitting or standing near where the work is taking place.  View block will enhance the feeling you are here, not there.

Team track.  If you could widen the depth a little in this area, you open up some interesting operations for a team track.  It will also take away from the "shelf" look of the layout.

You will be quite satisfied with this layout.  Happy railroading, Dave

One large industry vs.

One large industry vs. several small ones. With a smallish footprint you are working with, one industry could be modeled quite prototyipicaly.  A Chemical plant would recieve covered hoppers of raw materials along with tank cars. It would ship in the same type of cars plus box cars. You could include clean out tracks for loading product, specific doors for box cars, and on and on.  And the industry would LOOK very large and credible, placed along a siding off the mainline. Think of the detail that could be modelled. Imagine a local dropping off a string of cars, while picking up yesterdays workload, (you don't even model the local, it just happens!) and you could spend a couple of hours doing a shift at the plant. You could paint your locos in company colours, leased units, or whatever, it would all look good. Do some reasearch on industries (fascinating part of the hobby) that use the type of cars you like and you could have a fantastic railroad.   Good luck. 

I almost wish I was downsizing!!

Steve

Track in a street?

You could consider one street crossing the tracks at other than a right angle at about the 4.5 ft point, and an intersecting street that includes the long track that is closer to the front of the layout.