"Any feedback I could get on

Given your student situation with limited time and money after studies and tuition I'd minimize any layout for now and concentrate on school and the virtual railroading. For a place to show off and run a few models I think the 2nd idea would be plenty adequate. I'd move the runaround/passing track a bit to the left so it goes around the curve a bit( equalize the tails on each end and the runaround so each is about 1/3 of the layout length)then put one spur on the left wall and two on the right wall. That would give three industries and a place to switch and run around cars. I'd also move the main closer to the wall so the shelves could be 12 inches and not stick out into the room so much. 12 inches by 10 feet or so of N scale shelf is plenty to work on for a year or two. If you can't screw shelf brackets to the wall I'd go look for 12 inch deep book cases at thrift stores or maybe Ikea....DaveB

Runaround/Passing track

DaveB - thanks for the feedback! Is something like this what you had in mind?

The flex track on the passing siding doesn't look great, but I couldn't figure out how to get it to connect to both ends in Railmodeller without making it look like it does in the plan. Also, I really like the idea of the bookshelves! I have a lot of books, so that could be a good solution. I'll take a look around. I know that Walmart sells some cheap ones, but they're kind of rickety and won't stand a move well (voice of experience). 

 "thanks for the feedback! Is

Yeah, pretty much it. I'd probably put all the spurs on the far side of the mainline so I could build the industries up against the wall. Three big industries would cover quite a bit of the backdrop and simplify painting and detailing the remaining skyline and horizon. For operations I'd just stage a train on the mainline then bring it to the passing siding and sort out the incoming cars then switch the industries and make up a train of outgoing cars then call it a day. If you had the room for enhancement a  temporary staging track could be hooked on one or both ends so the trains could actively arrive and leave the scene......DaveB

Thanks

Thanks! A cassette would be good. I'm hoping to eventually put some permanent staging at one end or the other. 

Thoughts

Guitarist,

and the other is an L-shaped N scale switching layout inspired by a local switching company, which has 5' and 6' long sections. I have had trouble settling on a plan

I've experimented with both roundy roundy and switching under similar limitations as you describe, and I found the switching much, much more rewarding. Your switching layout still has a curve so you still get to see the nice effect of lots of stock going round a bend.  

I also have an Atlas GP35 that my parents got me for Christmas (undecorated so that I can put it in my own paint scheme - probably my "Big Country Rail Link" paint scheme from my Trainz railroad of the same name), so my motive power is taken care of (although it isn't all that prototypical. Still, what's a guy on a budget to do?).

Your railroad your rules and they sound like good parents. In future, would something like an SW1200 let you fit more wagons into the mix? Being about a half the length of the GP or smaller. 

Before painting the loco or weathering anything, consider getting cheapo plastic toys from a thrift store and trying out techniques on them first. 

As far as benchwork goes, I'm thinking about getting a couple of folding plastic tables from Walmart and gluing a layer of foam on top of that. Has anyone ever tried this? I'm not sure if that's advisable or not. My (future) landlord is kind of strict on power tools, so I'm trying to figure out how to create benchwork that is both portable (as I only have one more year in college and will have to be able to move the layout) and will require as little power tool usage as possible (so that I don't get in trouble!).

You can get surprisingly sturdy foam, but these folding plastic tables worry me because the joints might be loose or get loose over time, then the loco might shake the tables causing derailments, or even worse, something you love dropping on the floor. I use IKEA kallax shelving units (no power tools needed, fairly bulletproof, you can use the shelf part as a shelf, lightweight, fit in a car) but can you get these where you are?  

a team track, and probably some kind of liquid-based dealer (I also like tank cars, and they are EVERYWHERE on the SSC). I may also include a scrapyard (the SSC serves two),

Team track is a good shout because you can offload lots of different cargoes there and you can make it with a simple ramp or boxcar minus trucks plus matchstick timbers with open door and little man standing in it. 
If you want to do a scrapyard look on ebay for pocketwatch parts. Millions of little wheels and bits of metal that fit right in. Also dip roughly scale toy cars in paint stripper for scrap cars perhaps. 

I don't yet have a power pack/DCC system, but I am planning on purchasing a DCC system once I have the money (I'll probably go with Digitrax or NCE).

Are you sure you need a DCC system for a fairly simple switch layout with usually just one loco moving around? Think of the money you could save and spend on rolling stock (plus stocks of paint, styrene, plasticard, etc, etc). Caveat emptor, I have never gone anywhere near DCC; if I could make lights come on and whistles sound I might revise my opinion, but having never been able to do this I don't feel the lack of it. 
 

Best of luck and whatever happens please tell us about it. 

Thanks

Trent,

Thanks for your feedback! 

That's definitely something I'll look into. The SSC uses 2 NW2s and a SW1200 (I think - the last one is new and I haven't seen much of it yet). Also, thanks for the painting/weathering tips - I don't want to ruin my engine!

Ok. that's the biggest thing I was wondering about - I know that they're portable, but they can get to be pretty rickety. I guess I need to get into more of a "permanent layout" mindset. The nearest Ikea is in Austin, unfortunately, but perhaps I can find the shelves on their website? If not, I know that Costco sells some industrial shelving that I might be able to use. 

I wonder if I might also be able to adapt some metal paper clips/tacks/etc for this purpose? As it happens, I do have a couple of watchband links lying around, but I will definitely look on ebay for the rest of the parts - I know I can also get scale cars on ebay for about $20 or so for 100 of them from a Chinese manufacturer.  

Maybe I'm jumping the gun just a bit on that - I'll look into DC power packs. I figured that, in the long run, DCC might be cheaper and easier to wire, but maybe it's a misconception on my part.

 I definitely will! I'm just waiting until I get out of the dorm in three weeks - I don't have room to start something and, if I do start something, I don't want to move it right away.

Thanks so much for your help! 

DC VERSES DCC

I don't know, I would start with DCC, that way you start fresh with an up to date system. Eventually you will upgrade to DCC so you might as well do it from the get go. I have a small shelf layout that runs two engines but most of the time just one with a DCC system (NCE). Can't beat it !!  The other advantage, having DCC engines if you want to run your engine in another layout which have DCC you are good to go. Most modelers have DCC on their layouts.

It's Been A Long Time Since College

But I understand doing things on the cheap. A straight DC powerpack can be had cheap. DCC will continue to evolve and he's thinking he can't afford another turnout let alone $300 for a basic DCC system. Enjoy now, get some building and operating experience, upgrade later when $$ is available.

As for the GP-35, what era are you modeling. If it was 1970's when these were still relatively new, they would most likely be on the mainline. By the 2K's they are in local service, if they are still around at all.

I remember way back when when $$ were tight. I was happy with any arrangement that allowed me to run a train and have some fun. Imagination can fill in a lot of loose ends. Have fun !

Espee over Donner

Folding tables

The main objection to folding tables is most modelers like their layouts higher, usually at 48" to 60". The good ones are solid enough for a railroad (at least when they are new), but surprisingly expensive. The cheapest solution is to build your own bench out of wood. The choice of plywood or dimensional lumber is really a matter of the tools at your disposal.

pqe

No problem

The nearest Ikea is in Austin, unfortunately, but perhaps I can find the shelves on their website?

I've always ordered online and over here in the continent of small boring trains ikea's delivery service is fine

I wonder if I might also be able to adapt some metal paper clips/tacks/etc for this purpose?

Tin foil also 

Maybe I'm jumping the gun just a bit on that - I'll look into DC power packs. I figured that, in the long run, DCC might be cheaper and easier to wire, but maybe it's a misconception on my part.

That will depend on whether you want more than one loco on stage at any one time.

With DC, 

- 'One loco is moving and the other is idle somewhere' = the idle loco will need to be sitting on a bit of track that can be electrically isolated. Some turnouts do this anyway, you can also wire in a simple switch to switch off power to this or that section

- 'Both locos are moving at the same time' = one DC controller for each loco and also they need to be on isolated bits of track 

For example on the layout I'm currently messing about with, I've got some track where freight switching happens, and totally unconnected track going along the back where a second train passes through the scene. This is doable on DC in that these two regions of track are not joined together. Within the switching area, Loco 1 can come in and do some work, then it gets parked down siding that is isolated by my kato turnouts while Loco 2 comes in and does its bit. But Locos 1 and 2 can't occupy the same siding.  

DCC, Benchwork, and a few other things

Thanks all! 

Jarhead - I do eventually want to expand, and that's why I was initially looking into DCC. My impression is that starter DCC systems start for about $50-$60 more than a decent DC power pack, so I'm considering just biting the bullet and going straight to DCC. The Geep isn't decoder-equipped though, so I'll have to (most likely) put one in, which will cost a little more - but I could be wrong. I have a couple of Bachmann power packs, but I don't know if I can use those or not - they're of the train set variety. 

Patrick Stanley - I did notice (if the Bachmann power packs aren't sufficient) that Walmart (of all places!) is selling the Railpower 1300 for around $40. Not sure if that's a good DC pack or not, but prices seem to climb pretty quickly after that.

The railroad will probably be set about 2-5 years behind the present (so 2010 or so). My Big Country Rail Link route on Trainz Simulator is set about that far back in the past, and I'm hoping to correlate the physical layout with the Trainz route eventually. And thanks for the help! I appreciate it. Once I get started I will post updates on a blog on here as often as I can!

Pelsea - That is what I would prefer to do, but my landlord is very strict about the usage of power tools and other "construction" equipment in the apartments. I might be able to get some benchwork done this summer while I'm at home, though. I have a 4x8 piece of plywood sitting out in the shed that's been waiting on a layout for about 5 years now! The other option I'm looking into is some sort of industrial shelving. I may be an "odd one out," so to speak, but I actually prefer to be able to look down at my trains while I'm running them. I'm considering trying to find something that will allow me to sit down and run them at eye level so that I can run them from a "helicopter view" while standing. Thanks for the feedback!

One loco operation

Trent, 

Thanks! I figured Ikea would have most of their stuff on their website. And tinfoil is cheap and plentiful - with a bit of weathering it should look like scrap sheet metal from several of the scrapyards around here. 

Currently, I only have one loco (the Geep), so I'm only planning on running that for the time being. I'd eventually like to expand this layout to more of an industrial shortline, though, so maybe I should isolate one or two tracks. 

Where do you think the best place(s) in the plan would be to put an isolated track? One of the spurs or the passing track maybe?

Also, with one-loco operation, do you think a train set power pack will work or do I need more power than that?

Thanks! 

Where to isolate

That's a good question - you could isolate the passing siding but then if one of the tracks is blocked, it can't be used as a run-around. You could make the industry sidings isolatable and stow the idle loco down there. 

Also, with one-loco operation, do you think a train set power pack will work or do I need more power than that?

I use one Kato powerpack with a threeway splitter feeding power into three places (at turnouts just before the split).(NB if doing this make sure each input is sending power the same direction or you'll get a short.) 

I can tell you that this supplies plenty of power, but different powerpacks might vary in output.

Another way to do isolated sections if you don't have isolating turnouts is to use insulated rail joiners. Kato do these and I believe other companies as well. So you get two joined pieces of track; each with a power feeder into it; but the power is not flowing through that insulated joint between the two pieces of track. To isolate one of those joined pieces of track, just cancel the power that's feeding into it.  

Crude diagram:

===p=====X=====p=====

The '=' is live track. 'X' there is the insulated joint, the 'p' is the power input. So you can then do:

===p=====X-----------------  

Where the - is dead track. 

Bear in mind that as with much of the hobby, all this fiddling around with isolated sections and so on is something I enjoy doing, it may not be fun for anyone else. As another member said, one reason to go with DCC is it would let you take your locos to a local club that uses DCC  

Isolation

Ok. If that's the case, since the original plan only uses 4 turnouts, I might try and spring for another one and make a switch engine pocket somewhere, and just isolate that.  

My turnouts are Atlas Snap Track, so I doubt they'll isolate the track. 

So I'm guessing to provide power I would use something like a 3 position switch (like on a guitar - where up is neck pickup, middle is both, and down is bridge)?

Thanks for all your help! I'm going to revamp the plan a little bit and then post the result on here - I feel like 12" shelves (off my revised plan) may not quite be wide enough for scenic experimentation (and for one of the sidings to cross a road at an angle, which is something I really, really, really want to model. 

Thanks!

Redesign

So I have redesigned my layout a little bit (again). I decided to combine some elements from the original and the redesigned plan posted earlier in the thread. Here's what I have at the moment:

New track plan

I've widened the shelves to 18 inches so that I can have some industries that are freestanding and not just plastered against the backdrop. The red track is an optional track that would be isolated and used for engine storage and a small industry (probably either a team track or a small warehouse of some sort. A grain elevator would be at the far end. I'm not a huge fan of switchbacks, but since its primary function is for loco storage (apart from the rest of the layout), I think I can get away with it. I'm thinking a one-car industry there. The siding on the left (that curves off from the main) I envision as a scrapyard, while the one along the top I envision as a grain elevator. I'm thinking about placing a team track "location" around the runaround (and possibly moving my liquid customer up to the engine pocket area. The end track along the right (and the passing siding, to some extent) could serve as an interchange as well. 

Here's how I'm looking at operations:

Distribution:

1. Train "arrives" (i.e. is set up at the interchange location by me) at the interchange. I would arrange it in the following order: 1) hoppers for the grain elevator, 2) gondolas for the scrapyard at the left, 3) (optional) a boxcar for the "team track" on the passing siding, and 4) one or two tank cars for the industry in the switch pocket. 

2. Switch engine (or Geep) leaves the switch pocket at the upper left. First location switched would be the grain elevator, followed by the scrapyard, the "team track," and the switch pocket.

Train assembly:

Basically the above, but in reverse. Eventually, once I get a second engine, I can run these sections back to back for a longer session (hopefully).

Thoughts? 

Block control

Just for giggles and grins look up "Block Control".  If you are going to acquire a second power pack then a little more wire, some insulated joiners and a few switches can get you full two train operation without having to use DCC. Then later it is simple to change over if you want/need the additional features.

DCC is more flexible, easier to wire and gives more options but you can do block control for a lot less once you count even a beginning command station and decoders.

kevin

Block control

Kevin,

Thanks! I certainly will do that. Maybe my confusion on DC has been due to the fact that I've just been looking up "model railroad wiring"?  

Wiring

This page has some diagrams on how it works.  

http://www.modeltrainbuilder.com/track-wiring.html

Basically you isolate sections of the track and attach your throttles through a toggle switch.  When the toggle is thrown one way, power pack A is applying power.  When it is thrown the other, power pack B.  This allows separate controls in different areas of the track.  Prior to DCC everything was done this way if you wanted to run more than one train at a time.

kevin

Wiring

Kevin,

I gotcha! For some reason, I was under the impression that cab control required a single controller and some very complicated wiring and timing to turn parts of the layout on and off. Not sure where that came from. Thanks! I'm guessing that, if I go the DC route, I can make the layout as I have it planned now one "block" and then add on to it, with each addition being a new block. 

Arrange block boundaries by train operations

You may wish to arrange your blocks based on how your trains will operate. For instance, the track (and turnouts) on either side of a siding would be own blocks, the siding itself is a block, and the main alongside the siding is a block.

This way two trains can pass or overtake at the siding while never losing control of the individual trains.

                                      D
WEST --------------/===========\--------------- EAST
                  A                  B                   C

1. Train 1 approaches from west - block A set to train 1
2. Train 2 approaches from east - block C set to train 2
3. Train 1 takes siding - block D set to train 1
4. Train 2 passes on main - blocks A, B, C set to train 2
5. Train 1 proceeds east - blocks D, C set to train 1

If you arrange blocks by train operation all way round your layout then you can run trains independently of each other however it doesn't take long before you have a mass of toggle switches and interconnecting wiring. Then you have to build panels to mount all those toggle switches so you can use them efficiently. As the layout grows the investment in switches, panels, and wire gets out of hand and results in significant cost.

For this reason I personally would bite the bullet and start out with DCC (or other digital system like Rail Pro). The up front cost is a little higher but in the long run you get a much simpler and easier to operate layout. With digital there are no limits as to how many trains, where the trains are, or how and when they move. A block controlled DC layout will impose restrictions on train movements especially if you do not use a large number of blocks. I think you will find yourself tiring of constantly flipping toggle switches just to run trains.

Can be complicated

The larger the layout and the more trains you want to run the more complicated it gets!  The layout you posted running two engines would need around 7 toggle switches and ~1/3 more wire than a single engine.  Increase that to 3 or more trains and you have to have more expensive rotary switches and wind up with spaghetti for wiring  Plus by the time you get 4 DC controllers you are up at the cost of a lower end DCC system.

I agree with everyone else that DCC is really the way to go, but if you are strapped for funds then block control can at least get two trains running.  I wouldn't go more than 2 trains though, after that DCC is the way to go.  if two is fine then you are golden, otherwise block control is a stop-gap for later expansion.

Don't forget to troll FleaBay for controllers, especially if you plan on going to DCC later on.  For a layout like you are talking "stock" throttles from olders set should do what you need and keep costs down, plus no one wants them so they are normally cheap.  Don't spend much for them though, if you can't get them for under $10 then buy better ones that are new.

kevin

Wiring and a couple of other things

Thanks all! 

Alan: Thanks for the diagram - it helps a lot. I am leaning towards an NCE starter DCC set (Amazon has them for around $160), and it's what the hobby shop back home carries. My biggest fear with block control is that I would wind up running the layout and not the trains. Also, if my memory serves me correctly, block control doesn't allow for multiple unit consisting (not much of a concern at this point, but it would be nice in the future). Currently, as I only have one loco, I can probably get away with DC for now. 

 Kevin: That's my biggest fear. I'm a big believer in keeping things simple (mostly because I'm lazy ), and I'd rather be able to easily expand my layout than have to do some extremely complicated wiring in order to run it.

2-train ops aren't a given or a druther at this point (I only have the one GP35, and it's not DCC equipped), so DC should work fine for now. I used to have a couple of Bachmann train set controllers around here somewhere, but I'm not sure where they're at. I also have a Model Power HO controller from a ways back (when I thought that HO was the way to go, until I realized I didn't have space). I'm assuming these would work?

Thanks for all the help, y'all! I'm so excited to get started on this. Another question: where should I place feeders? I read (I think in the March issue of MRH) that feeders should be placed every three feet, but does that rule change when there are multiple spurs/sidings/etc?

Thanks!

Hang on

Battle stations. Raise the shields Mr. Chekov.

Brace yourself, you are likely to get widely varied opinions on this question. At the root of the question is Ohm's Law. There are fact based answers if all the necessary input variables are known. Problem is it is not practical to quantify all the variables. So we are left with experience derived opinion. Check out this month's magazine article DCC Wiring 101 by Joe Fugate. Good solid general information.

A generally accepted rule of thumb is "everything is soldered to something." Meaning feeder wires or rail joiners. In other words, no mechanical joint (slip fit joiner) is relied upon for electrical purposes. In theory the more soldered on feeders you have the less voltage drop will be present at the locomotive(s). Eventually you reach a point of diminishing return. Where that point resides is where the confusion comes in. Those pesky unknown variables.

While it is simple to say put a feeder every so many feet, you will find this oversimplified recommendation falls apart quickly when you apply it to your layout. Turnouts, crossings, signal districts, and other assorted things will force you to place feeders at specific locations even though the positions may be well short of the "recommended spacing". If you must have a number then six feet separation is a good number on plain flextrack sections. Closer is better. I tend to lean overkill so I use 3 feet and I solder a feeder to every rail in turnouts. Most call me nuts.    

Feeders

Alan,

First off, let me say that, as a huge Star Trek fan, I got a good chuckle out of your line about Chekov.  

I'll go through and re-read it more carefully. I just skimmed over it, but I have the current issue saved on my laptop, so I'll give it another read. 

That's gonna be a lot of soldering with sectional track. I think I begin to see some of why experienced modellers prefer flextrack (besides better turning radii and stuff like that). 

 Better safe than sorry, right? So, based on what you said, I'm leaning towards putting feeders on both tracks at each end of the end of the passing siding, and then another set about halfway down the siding on each track. I figure about two sets each for the spurs, and one set for the switch pocket, and then two each for the main on either side of the passing siding. Does that sound about right or is that way overkill?