Nothing?

No comments?  I could use the help.  Parts seem very crowded or sharp radius.

Radius?

What is the radius of the curves?

Looking at the panorama photo, everything looks like it flows nicely.

I like the sector plate solution for your loads in mty's out.

I would choose the shortest possible lift out.

Looking forward to progress

Apologies for lack of any constructive feedback, but I am very interested in seeing the progress. I lived in Amherst (and Sunderland) during grad and post-grad school years in the mid to late 90s, so seeing 30-40s era railroading on the Norwottuck pre-railtrail will be quite interesting. 

One question does come to mind- will you be representing the bridge over the Connecticut River?

Regards,

Ethan

@ Doug

I think you need to read through these posts, before you get locked in on the Time Saver.  You have to remember that the Time Saver was a game shown at meets. John Allen did not attach it to his layout.  Read on and read the comments.  There are folks who actually built it in their layout and then hated it.

http://www.housatonicrr.com/timesaver.htm

https://ontarioinhoscale.wordpress.com/2013/04/07/heresy-against-john-allen-and-the-model-train-rubics-cube/

http://themodelrailwayshow.com/LayoutDesign/?p=2833

Lance Mindheim is mentioned in the above link.  Some of the published members here are mentioned too.

It is your layout.  Your decision.  You might want to get access to Lance's three books before you lock yourself into the Time Saver.  I hope you will seriously consider this before you get it all locked down.  Otherwise you just might find yourself tearing out a portion of your layout in the future.

Den

Much as I love the work of John Allen.....

....he never intended the Timesaver to be part of a layout.  I think if he were alive today he would be quite surprised to see it being used as the basis for small layouts.  As switching puzzles go, the much simpler Inglenook is a better choice for layout inclusion and, dare I say, more "prototypical".  Other than that the only other comment I can make is that the Turntable  might be better towards the front than deep in the corner like that although it's hard to tell how deep back there it actually is. Sharp radius curves are usually a thing to be avoided if possible  but are not really a big deal as long as one is willing to limit themselves to short equipment and short trains.

Regards,

Michael

Turntable is near the front

Ethan said: "will you be representing the bridge over the Connecticut River?"

Yes, definitely! It is a nice truss bridge and it is skewed, an interesting visual feature.  THAT is one of my problems.  The bridge will be at the lower-right, from Northampton to "Future".  There is a steel support post in the way.  If the bridge is on the lower side (as you look at the plan), then it is very long and pretty much has to be a vulnerable duck-under.  If the bridge is on the upper side, then it is right-angles to the aisle and can be a short lift-up.  But it does not mate with the "Future" shelve around the room.

Anyone who has lived in the area will recognize the layout is a mash-up of all the towns.  Quite by accident, I accurately represented a long backing move from Amherst to Palmer in order to reach Springfield.

It does look like the turntable is buried in a corner.  Actually, the turntable is on the aisle, next to the door into the room and can be moved with your finger. It *is* a problem that an operator would usually stand inside the G-shape, and the turntable would be out of reach unless they walked all the way around.

The minimum curve radius is 28 inches.  The exception is the lead to the rock crusher at 24 to 20 inch radius for short 2-bay hoppers, and the curved loading dock in the upper-left corner will probably be 18 inch radius.

I will give some thought to taking out the Timesaver.  It is nice for messing around for an hour but it is actually source industries for other places, mostly "Springfield", not just swapping cars.  The disadvantage is, the main flow is counter-clockwise and the spur on the aisle pointing left is used often, requiring a run-around every time. Maybe if I reversed the switch on the run-around.

Bill said: "I would choose the shortest possible lift out."

I am not sure what you are referring to, the sector plate or the cassette. Or something else?  The sector plate is one track wide and swivels, no lift out is needed. The cassette - well, hopefully it will copy the successful design of a club member - heavy-duty ball bearing drawer slides mounted vertically on the wall supporting a stack of cassettes. 

One little feature: In the photo there is a disconnected abandoned spur all by its lonesome near the aisle, in the corner.  That is the programming track for DCC.

The operations?

 How does it work? Looks like trains come on scene at the cassette, then run to springfield where there's a turn table and a junction to Amherst. I see no way for an incoming train to be re-arranged at the junction? No passing track or yard. Looks like all they could do is back up to Amherst or run their locos onto the turntable leads? How are they going to get their incoming cars to the rock plant without a run around? and what's with the empties in loads out at the same location? They'd just haul the rock next door with a conveyor or truck instead of loading it into train cars. I think it would make more sense to make that peninsula connect to the Amherst area and put the receiver or there so the rock could be hauled a ways? Maybe I'm not seeing this sketch as you have actually designed it? .....DaveB

Operations - first draft

The original post describes operations, a first draft. There are no long trains.  Unfortunately the photograph is not large enough to show all the identification of the industries. 

Passing track in Springfield - Yes, there is. The first post mentions the turntable has a dual purpose as a run-around for locos.  The turntable, the sector plate, and the cassette ideas were taken from various micro-layouts.  I could put in two switches instead of the turntable, but it is something to try.

Goods mostly shuttle between Amherst and Springfield, which have complementary industries.  A creamery at Springfield receives the milk from Amherst and Northampton. Food processing at both locations may need more preparation on the product. A small icing platform and cold storage in Springfield will be busy.  People use the stations frequently.   Occasionally  machined parts, chemicals, and people come in, paper and food are shipped out.

Dave, you probably missed the the mention of a view block between the crusher and receiver in one of the photos.  Imagine 1/4 inch Masonite (or something) from table to ceiling. Now they are separate.

Nope, no marshalling yards. Few engine service facilities.  As in real life, engines could go a long ways to be turned around.  

Ops

I second the operations question.  It looks like multiple switchbacks to get around the layout.  I don't see a natural way to connect it to the future portion. Maybe there is an operational concept, but it's not one that is intuitive.  I don't understand  how the "loads in, empties out" industry works with the sector plate and industries that are physically next to each other.  Maybe if there were two tracks on the sector plate (one loads, one empties) at least the switcher could spot loads and then pull empties ( or vice versa).  The concept and era sound really interesting.  The track plan needs to be rationalized with the operating plan to make sure they support each other.

Suggestions are welcome

Hi Dave-

I don't see a natural way to connect it to the future portion. 
Yeah darn it, neither do I. I was looking for help. The best I could come up with is a reeealy long bridge. Got any ideas?

The concept and era sound really interesting.  The track plan needs to be rationalized with the operating plan to make sure they support each other.
What do you suggest?  That's why I posted, to get suggestions

It looks like multiple switchbacks to get around the layout. 
Yes, there are. That makes the run effectively longer in a tiny room.  I mean,  each leg is only 9 ft long!

Maybe there is an operational concept, but it's not one that is intuitive. 
That's OK.

 I don't understand  how the "loads in, empties out" industry works with the sector plate and industries that are physically next to each other.  
 I have explained how a wall can physically separate areas. Cars can go into a building on one side of the wall, pivot, and come out of a different building on the other side.

Maybe if there were two tracks on the sector plate (one loads, one empties) at least the switcher could spot loads and then pull empties ( or vice versa).  
Don't really need it. My error, I did not sketch in two short spurs, one on each side.  Imagine a "W" with a big vertical line cutting it in two.  That line is a wall. The outside legs are spurs.  The inside legs are the sector plate. The spur can spot 3 cars temporarily while the switcher fetches 3 from the plate. Pretty busy for a tiny space.

Can you extend the very tip

Can you extend the very tip of the "G" to the right to bring it closer to the future expansion?  Not only will that shorten your lift out, swing gate, or duck under, but will also give you a bit more layout real estate.

"Can you extend the very tip

"Can you extend the very tip of the "G" "

Thank you, that is interesting. Thinking about it now, especially near the support post.

There is another physical impediment to the room.  There was a woodstove in the area marked "future" and there is a 4x4 foot platform of bricks cemented to the floor. It is literally a stumbling block and forms a natural aisle along the "G". 

 I could build a false floor 4" high at brick level so we don't stub our toes. Then the benchwork could be extended from "Northampton" to "future"

My Plan

What i would do is put two cassette docks at the top. one at an elevation of 52" and the other at an elevation of 48".  Both lines would wrap around the G counter clockwise and put the major town on the inside of the G along both legs away from the post.  The turntable would be near where LI-EO sector plate was.  The town would be at an elevation of 50".

The operation would be either a junction between two roads or the junction between two branches of the same road.  The two road option would have a train start at the cassette  on each level and then both would run to the town where they would interchange cars, turn the power and trains then work back to each cassette.  The two branch option would have a train start on one cassette, run to the town, rearrange the train to work the other branch, work the other branch, then turn the power, and run back to the cassette.

To expand the layout to the future area I would have a two level drop leaf on the top, replacing the cassettes and a single level bridge across the aisle near the pole.  One of the levels would connect on the future area and the other would stub  the through route would have a couple double ended staging tracks and most of the switching would be on the stub branch.  I would run trains from staging out to the town, set out and pick up, then run a train up the stub branch switching it then returning back to the junction town.

I would suggest a separate

I would suggest a separate drawing of just your space and include doors that can not be blocked as well as any other obstacles in the room. I would also suggest that you include vertical dimensions as well. The future space seems to be noted in more than one area as well and if you wish to plan for it include it as well. Then the folks on here can look at what you have and what you want and try to give you a hand. Right now you are tossing things out like there is a door over there and a post over here. If they are marked everyone will know how big they are and where they are and can assist you with the plan accordingly.

Scale drawing, best I could

Here is a scale drawing done with Right Track to he best of my ability. At this point I do not have the software or the time to make it more detailed or larger, nor do I want to learn yet another package.

The benchwork is 2 ft deep.  The room is 13x13.  There are two doors, an electrical panel, a structural post, and a 4 inch high brick platform These are immovable.  The future expansion may depend on a 3-way switch, thus the questions marks surrounding it. The sector plate and switches are not connected. Allow some flexibility as the flex track can be curved in real life more easily than the software allows.

The "Future expansion" and the long line between "Northampton" and "Future" do not yet exist.  I don't like a bridge or duck-under that long, suggestions are needed.  The line from "Amherst" to "future" does not yet exist.  i would like to close the loop there, it has to be a gate or lift to access the electrical panel.  i'm thinking of a swing gate like a dutch door.

Something like this slightly

Something like this slightly modified would make better use of your space. It would eliminate several removable bridges that in reality do not actually gain very much additional layout space. You need to keep the layout from blocking the doors, and the electrical panel. This will do that and allow you to stretch it in a few dimensions. It appears that 3 feet or less will keep your layout from fouling the doors or support post on your drawing at the top. A 3 foot space from the wall on the electrical panel side ill allow access and give you a space approximately 10 x 10 and then adjoin your 23 foot long narrow shelf in the next room. If the plan is rotated clockwise 90 degrees and instead of 1 foot of depth you go to 18 inches it will fit your space nicely and allow for an easy connection to your future expansion. You will be spared the aggravation of lift outs to access other things in the house and have nearly the same amount of run.

If your track base level is about 56 inches high it would be easy for you to sit in a desk chair and roll under the layout with no need for a lift out at all. Just keeping the area simple and adding an industrial branch to the operation in your long narrow space will make for an interesting layout. If you make the layout 2 feet wide on the side of your electrical cabinet you could easily add three staging tracks behind a backdrop to represent off layout destinations.

You would then have a nice switching layout and the option to do some continuous running if you desired, sometimes it is just nice to watch them run through the scenery and relax. Hope this helps. It would mean redoing a lot of what you have tried so far but since you have indicated it has not been secured and that you are a bit unsatisfied with the route of the present plan it might be time to consider a redo before you are too far down the path you are presently on.

You might also wish to go through the excellent blogs from this gentlemen who is building in a similar space and with out the big extension. Rick has a great many things you might find of interest from gates to his track plan and the excellent modeling that can be done in a small space.

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/14545

I hope this helps you as given your space and options I would use the idea above.

Some good ideas to consider

I fell ino the trap of trying to use all the space.

 If I pull the "Future" away from the wall 2 feet (the wall with the door swinging away), and just leave that empty, then it lines up with "Northampton". A short bridge will work. Short lift bridges are more durable..  That makes a 10x13 layout. Later  I can extend something along that wall, if it seems useful.

I can test a few modules at 56" high and see if I like them, which is 16" higher than the current 40". It may eliminate the need for a lift bridge and non-moving parts are always more desirable. It is early days, I can unscrew and refasten stuff to the wall. (I built the walls but we like them where they are to divide living spaces.)

The passing track around corners gives more passing track than the 2-car run-around in the Timesaver. I was sentimentally stuck on that item, having transferred it from another layout.  Looking at it another way, the area "Coredele" is similar to  a very stretched Timesaver - passing track with spurs off in either direction but more useful. Ego soothed.

Not absolutely certain how to manage the electrical panel access, but again, a 56" high platform (52" high to the bottom of the benchwork) is a reasonable duck-under. Or use the equivalent of a half-door to swing out. My drawing shows the benchwork ends at least 3 ft from the panel in both directions, I chose 3x3 as the minimum open area to safely work on the panel.

Re-thinking many things now.  Back in a week.

bridge location

is there a reason you cannot do the bridge in this location?

Thanks, the bridge might work

The is a fairly short bridge, could be swing, lift, or if at 56 inch high, a duck-under.  Lots of options now.

Currently

• Stretching the Timesaver run-around to around the corner, more like Heart of Georgia. Saver goes away. Operations are much easier with larger run around.
• Thinking the cassette by the electrical panel is unworkable because it would be behind a bridge or duck-under. Eliminate cassette for now.
• Making step-wise changes instead of throwing everything out.  I still like the switchback to "Springfield" (opinions do not have to make sense) I will draw it with and without.  Perhaps it will go away.

I know the area well...

Since I live in Leverett, I have paid visits to this line and I think that among things, you ought to pay a visit to the Amherst Farmer's supply for ideas on how to arrange tracks, if your mind isn't entirely made up. It could prove to be interesting. There are still some clear signs as to where the track went, and there are some ties still in place on the railroad side of the station buildings. According to my friend, there's also some buried rails in the parking lot. Just in case you're curious...      I recommend having a look 'round, even just for fun!