Hi Jeff I find plastic models

Hi Jeff

I find plastic models are better detailed $ for $, but brass are not lacking far behind. (IMO)

​My New Haven railroad in HO is nearly all brass. For two reason, I like brass models because they don't have cast chassis and PCB filling the shell. BUT be aware the adding lights and DCC is a hard wiring job with no guide or plug and play option. 

The second reason is the drive trains are normally well made with a high end canned motors. Only had one little piggy model, the model was gutted and all the drive parts replaced with Hollywood Foundry in-line Bullants and canned motor from Buhlur. 

I could go on for pages, any questions just ask

Chris

Up into early 2000 brass was

Up into early 2000 brass was the only way to get models of the most modern diesel locomotives.

The price factor of brass and plastic diesels is still almost as large as years ago. Today's plastic diesels are much better detailed than years ago but still a bit behind brass diesels I think. But is this small difference worth the price difference of up to $750 depending on the model?

Steam is another story. With few exceptions you still have to look for brass if you are looking for a special type of locomotive of a certain railroad. Often there is only older brass. Be prepared to exchange an open frame motor with a can motor, to tinker with the drive train to get a smooth running locomotive, and to add additional electrical pick-up if you consider going DCC.

Modern brass, diesel and steam, is usually running well.

Regards, Volker (Germany)

"Exclusive of price and

  If I can get mass produced plastic locos in the desired model I usually go with them as I like to have plenty of spare parts on hand. I'd generally buy 3 plastic locos instead of one brass for instance so I have two extra drives to wear out. A bit of extra detail or prototype fidelity don't mean as much to me as availability and ease of repair. If the specific brass loco has spare parts readily available I'd probably be more inclined to go with it , or if it was cheap enough to strip and re-power with an easy to get drive that would be  another reason it might be a better choice? ......DaveB

Brass costs and there are not

Brass costs and there are not always accurate regarding paint schemes as I have learned the hard way.

The only brass I buy is that of models that are not made in plastic for my era and railroad and probably will never be produced.

The last two steam locos I acquired were made by Boo Rim and are incredible pieces of work; I wish they made more Canadian locos They are the best running locos I have.

I have two Overland models I preordered that came with paint schemes were off and the numbers applied askew, I now only buy locos in brass that I can examine and see run. No more preordering for mewhen it comes to brass.

Cost of brass, Plus Paint

The cost of these, both powered and un-painted was $199.00, plus shipping. I've never seem these in plastic. And the price wasn't that bad.

Hallmark Alco DL109 unpainted from E-bay.

They'll got to the shop to have the motor rebuilt with ball bearings and a neodymium magnet installed. They will have an eddy current flywheel/clutch installed along with ball bearings on the gear shafts and axles. Should be fine runners once all that is done.

Paint scheme will be my New York, Vermont & Northern older style scheme.

The caboose was my first color scheme. Yes it has tinted windows to keep the crew cool in summer. I then flipped the colors and used a Floquil Depot Green on the F unit. The caboose had Depot Olive as the green. Much to dark. Oh, and I stole the lighting stripe idea from the NYC.

Bernd

DL109s are available in plastic!

These have been available in plastic;

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Walthers-Mainline-HO-Alco-DL109-SF-p/910-9100.htm

Well

How about that. I knew I could be proofed wrong. Detail wise they look about the same. Price wise, I think I got a bargain.

Bernd

ALCO DL109 and DL110

As noted the DL109 (DL107) A units are available in HO plastic. Plastic A units are also available in N and O from several vendors. However, as far as I can find the ALCO DL110 (DL107) B units have never been produced in plastic. Brass ALCO DL AB sets costs run from moderately or very expensive in brass, but short of scratch building or bashing the only option:

http://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/053431/HO-Brass-Model-Train-OMI-1988-Overland-SRR-Southern-Railway-DL-107A-DL-108B-Set-Custom

http://www.brasstrains.com/classic/Product/Detail/051260/O-Scale-2-Rail-Brass-Model-Train-OMI-0383---0384-Southern-DL-109---DL-110-A-B-Diesel-Set-Custom

DL109 & DL110 Hallmark brass

There's one set avilable for the next 3 hours on E-bay. Last check $122.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-SCALE-BRASS-JAPAN-HALLMARK-ALCO-DL-109-110-DIESEL-A-ND-B-UNITS-C-8-/351275607221?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51c9a864b5

Bernd

Thanks Bernd

Thanks Bernd. I have a set, but if this one was painted in the two stripe 1940 Southern scheme I might bid on it. I will be interested in seeing what it sells for.

Thanks Guys

Sorry for not getting back sooner.  Been fighting an eye infection for a few days so sitting in front of a computer screen was a no go.  Thanks for sharing.  Those were the kind of answers I was looking for.  Much appreciated.

All the Best,

Sold

Sold for $154.00. Not bad.

Bernd

At one point in my hobby

At one point in my hobby life, I went through a intense brass phase.  I spent a TON of cash on a handful of beautiful brass locos and cars.  My experience with that equipment has taught me a very clear lesson.  Unless the ONLY option is brass, I don't buy brass.  Cost for power ranges from comparable to 4X as much, rolling stock is 3X-5X in price, having to frequently repower and add pickups, changing details is far more difficult, either paint myself or pay someone $300 to do it, the extra work to install DCC over modern plastic... I could go on, but I've problem made enough enemies with that list already.  My small brass collection is absolutely gorgeous and I would never get rid of it, but my layout is built for operations and the brass that I own falls short.

In short, modern plastic rolling stock is just as detailed, cheaper, and easier to work with than brass.

At one point in my hobby ...

Hobbez,

I agree with you to 100%, but not that I would miss one of my brass models. Only - I do longer invest so many bucks in new brass!

That what you have written may be correctly if you will have alternatives in plastic. I'm a steam loco fan and there is such a quantity of different engine types that never can be produced by manufacturers with the mass produced models. So I not would like to miss one of my brass models and each model will come mor and more to "my" model by their needed repairs, modifications and with each very specific and different digitalizing. However I must say also that I'm not the typical model railroader - my favored hobby is to build models, freight cars preferred and to modify them. And there is the one or other Loco on my worktable, brass of course!

Brass History

There was a time, right after WWII, when Model trains were really "Toy Trains".  HO was a new thing.  Plastic models had piping cast into the boiler and frame.  Hand rails and grabs were big and clunky.  Some servicemen in occupied Japan found that labor was plentiful and cheep, and Brass was also plentiful.  These factors led to creation of models that had higher detail than was normal at the time. 

These brass models were like jewelry compared to the clunky plastic models that were available.   Plumbing was made with wire.  Individual appliances on locomotives were made using lost wax castings.  Since details were being added, the quest for detail kept increasing.  Those who wished to change the details for a particular prototype could re-detail a brass model using soldering techniques. 

These factors continued till the '80s or '90s when Japan had built it's economy back and was no longer the cheep place for labor.  The manufacturing moved to Korea, India and Indonesia.  By then plastic technology had also improved with space age plastics becoming available to industry.  At the same time adhesive technology improved creating lots of strong adhesives and ways to control them.  So they started building plastic trains with individual appliances, wire piping, wire hand grabs, etc.  All the detail that used to be exclusive to Brass is now on being put on plastic models.  It is usually easier to re-detail a plastic model using modern adhesives as well. 

While people still consider brass to be the ultimate in model trains, there is really no reason for it anymore.  The real goal is high levels of detail and high fidelity in that detail.  We've see brass prices holding back with the influx of highly detailed plastic models.  Thus you can find many models on ebay at very reasonable prices.  So do you really care what material a model is made from? 

Small adjustment

Brass models were not produced with lost wax castings directly after WWII. PFM sent the first lost wax castings to Japan around 1957. Turned detail parts were used in the beginning.

The running qualities of the models were not good until the 1950s. The Japanese makers thought at that time their models would be shown in static displays. Their homes were too small for more than a short test track and they were surprised when they realized on a visit to the USA that their models were run on layouts.
Source: Pacific Fast Mail..... 25 Years of Fine Models 

As long as you are talking about quality of details I agree that the small plus brass still has is perhaps not worth the price difference. If we are talking about sturdiness of the train model and specially its details there are still worlds between brass and plastic.

For my formerly all brass diesel locomotive collection I change nowadays to plastic if a high quality model is available. Steam locomotives for the layout are still brass. Finding the locomotives for my road and era in plastic is almost impossible.

So material really doesn't matter as long as the quality is ok. But beware, when you buy older brass locomotives be prepared that you have to tinker to get them running smoothly. A master mechanic from Fulgurex, a Swiss importer, once told me, that I should calculate the price a second time for all the tinkering if I were not able to do it myself.

Regards, Volker
 

Thanks for the history lesson.

Honestly, that was fascinating.  It made me wonder if, maybe, I considered the wrong premise.  Rather than looking at it as the newer generation of plastic locos getting more expensive, I should have focused more on the disparity in the level of detail shrinking between the two.  It's true that todays locos are a lot more detailed than they were, even just a few years ago.  As it is with the diesels, I don't notice much difference between brass and plastic anyhow.  Steam power is where I really see a difference, but with some of the newer steam that's coming out, maybe that will change too.  Since I'm basing my railroad on a rather obscure, unheard of by most, prototype, I made the commitment early on that I'll need to do all of the paint/detailing myself, anyway.  So the tinkering aspect wasn't too much of a factor for me.  Though admittedly, the idea of bashing and customizing plastic is a lot more palatable than doing it with brass.  Even at that, it's interesting that when we detail plastic we use brass in many instances, so I won't escape from it entirely.  

One of the things I find most valuable about conversations on this forum is that I'm forced to continually re-evaluate my thought processes and priorities as I move further along the path.  Thanks again to everyone for sharing. 

Best to All,

Bill Schopp

This thread reminds me of reading RMC in the 1950's, with articles by Bill Schopp on converting factory brass models to models of other locomotives. I thought it was blasphemy - the man had no respect for the pricey models as they were built, but whacked them up and rearranged and added stuff to get the model he wanted. I now have a greater appreciation for what he did - if you don't want to scratchbuild, then find something close and change it. Well before Art Curren and others were kitbashing plastic, Bill was brassbashing.

Link to one page that discusses this; scan partway down to find it.

http://sbiii.com/mrr6.html#blschopp

​DrJolS

Brass steam still necessary

Hello Jeff,

the plastic steam locomotive are already very well detailed and running qualities are usually ok. Only the selection is quite limited. While the diesel locomotive manufacturers were able to convince the railroads of standardization with the exception of some extras, each railroad had its own steam locomotive standards. So there existed a lot more steam locomotive types than diesels.

So it is much easier for model manufacturers to sell diesel models in sufficient numbers. With steam they have to make choices and produce USRA types, other well known locomotives, or more generic types. If you are looking for a SP C-10 2-8-0 you'll end up with brass.
Regards, Volker

Brass vs. plastic diesels

Jeff:

I did repairs & upgrades for a large hobby shop for 15 years & have seen quite a few brass diesels come in for repairs. I can say that virtually all the brass diesels I got for repairs were crudely engineered and ran like doodoo, especially ALCO & Hallmark units. The drives & gearing were very noisy, they had huge motors which made installing DCC almost impossible, & I have yet to see a brass E- or F-unit that had the front end contours right; the detailing was often either missing or pretty crude. By contrast, virtually all the plastic diesels I worked on ran beautifully, especially Athearn, Kato, Stewart & Intermountain. Granted, plastic diesels are much more delicate than a brass one but if given gentle treatment, will run for years with very little maintenance. Be very careful when buying a brass diesel-- I think their day has come and gone.

Bob Battles

Brass diesels still have their place

Bob: I agree with your opinion of Alco and Hallmark diesels but you shouldn't generalize it. I checked a 15 years old OMI diesel a few month ago before selling it. It had never been run before. It ran perfectly without tuning and crept along. There are good drive trains in brass diesels as there are not so good ones in plastic diesels.

Brass diesels are over their zenith now with good detailed plastic models available. But there are some prototypes which are only available in the low cost series of plastic manufacturers or not at all. There brass diesels will still have their customers.
Regards, Volker

...

Brass is and always will be an Art Form.  That makes it a significantly different object than any plastic model will ever be.

Brass as art form

IMHO the art form is at least debatable. If you call handicraft an art form I agree. Otherwise to be art for me it lacks the own idea and imagination.

Brass as art form was promoted by dealers and importers since about 10 years to explain the high prices and to keep them high. But this is just my personnel opinion.
Regards, Volker

Plastic vs Brass

What I have in brass is only because NH electrics(except for the Bachmann EF-4s) and most NH steam, are not avail in plastic.

My feeling is that with what they're making in plastic or diecast today is fabulous. A friend of mine just bought an MTH HO 2-6-6-6 for around $500.00; Precision Scale has one for $3000.00! The MTH model is superb. I have 2 IRC SP AC-12s, they too are on a par with a $2000.00 brass model. I paid $250.00 ea. for them.

I bought a Genesis SD70ACe for $149.95, the OMI model is $980.00. The detail on plastic is on a par with brass. If you look at the hood door latches on a brass hood unit, there is no depth to them. Check out the same latches on a plastic hood unit; far superior.

In most cases, plastic engines can pull the chrome off a bumper; I have some brass steam that can barely pull the

tender.

I guess it basically comes down to what the modeler prefers. . .and can afford.

I have found most brass either sits in their boxes or in a display case. I buy models to pull trains.