"Dead rail" is not DCC...

Well, first of all, "dead rail" is NOT DCC, by definition. DCC is a term trademarked by the NMRA, and has a very specific meaning.

From the Digital Command Control page on Wikipedia:

If you want dead rail, then just build it that way from the beginning. It will be far less expensive and take a lot less work than doing things over 2-3 times. 

It's flexible

BARR

DCC is a method of control.  It does not care about where the power comes from or how it receives the commands as long as they follow the format the decoder expects.  A marriage with dead rail and direct radio reception is definitely doable.  The standards do not require that it absolutely and solely be tied to the rails.  NMRA supports any ideas that can enhance our enjoyment of the hobby.  

Perhaps...

The title of the post should have been;

Is this a reasonable path to Radio Control?

I don't know enough about radio control and battery operation to comment further but it does seem like taking a step back to implement wired DCC at all if your goal is dead rail radio control.

Regards,

One step at a time

"...but it does seem like taking a step back to implement wired DCC at all if your goal is dead rail radio control."  

It is pretty much for the same reason people usually do not start with a 40x30 ft layout and all brass equipment - it is a little too much at first.  Rail-supplied DCC is well known and support is more available. Each step is more sophisticated and less common.  The radio is not replacing the DCC protocols, it just another way to get the signal there.

One step at a time

I wondered about the protocols and if the radio supported that.  What about decoders installed in rolling stock.  If they are live rail to begin with, will you have to replace them with radio control decoders or can the radio control just be added on?

It's easier to make a DCC

It's easier to make a DCC layout if you build it that way from the start, rather than converting a DC layout.  Similarly, I would expect it to be easier to build a layout for dead rail radio from the start, rather than converting a regular DCC layout.  Battery power and radio control are going to have a very different set of problems than regular DCC.  For example, you probably don't want to use screen wire in scenery forms that go over track (might block radio signal), and you'll need to put some thought into how recharging is done.

To out it differently, if you get a layout operating nicely with regular DCC, why would you want to change everything to something relatively unproven?

I don't think it will work...

To make the rails dead you have to put the DCC commands in the air with a radio and take them off the rails.  Your system does not do that.  What you have is cool stuff but it does not take DCC commands off the rails.  You take the power off the rails with the batteries but not the DCC commands. 

Who makes this stuff - I don't know.  

Charging the batteries without taking the locos apart is another problem.

Mike Lee 

It will work

Doug,

What you outlined will certainly work.  The Sprog will be a great way to provide the DCC signal for the Tam Valley DRS-1 transmitter.  If you have a loco with a conventional decoder already installed the TV DRS-1 receiver would be the way to go, if a new installation the NCE D13RJ is an all-in-one solution.

You could leave the rails dead, OR the rails can be used to recharge the battery if you should so desire (Dr Geoff B discussed this in the Nov MRH) and using a Sprog III would provide enough power for that and give more options.  Your locos could be run on other layouts if you take your DRS-1 transmitter, and other operators could bring their conventional DCC decoded locos to your layout.

The distinct advantage you gain is a clean signal sent directly to the decoder.  Only you could say whether it is all worth the cost.

Good luck with your project.

Dave

Locked into DCC?

Another option that would take you straight to dead rail operation is Rail Pro. No, it won't give you a JMRI interface nor will you be able to use cell phones as throttles. But it is literally plug-n-play for dead rail. You might want to make sure RP modules will fit in the 44 tonners before committing.

Why 2 DCC stages (or 3 in total)?

Seems to me if the intent is "dead rail" with wireless control, why not just install the NCE D13DRJ wireless decoder/receivers in the first place and save the effort and money of installing, and then replacing, conventional decoders?

As to the DC first, seems that running multiple locomotives will require a lot of blocking (wiring and power switches) that will not be needed in either a DCC setup or dead rail setup.

track ready for DCC

Agreed it is easier to start with track prepped for DCC. I am starting with DC simply because I have it and want to get on with fastening the track down permanently and testing track. The most troublesome parts are the turnouts and they are all DCC ready.     The only real difference are "Blocks" for DC and "Power Districts" for DCC.

I did not know of Rail Pro and checked it out. I will decide against it for the reasons below.

• Control signals are set over the air so the signal is cleaner.
• The power is through rails so the power can still be intermittent.
• A handheld controller is $300.  (A generic handheld smartphone used as a controller is $40.)
•  It seems Rail Pro uses a proprietary protocol, it is not DCC compatible.  Of maybe it just does not respond to track signals.

The LM-2S is electrically compatible with the DCC plug found in many locomotives to promote easy installation. However, the LM-2 responds to RailPro Direct Radio commands only and DOES NOT respond to DCC commands and can not be controlled or setup with any DCC system.

http://www.ringengineering.com/LM-2S.htm

RailPro

Control signals are set over the air so the signal is cleaner.
This is a good thing, right?

The power is through rails so the power can still be intermittent.
Not necessarily through the rails. Can be onboard battery. Dead rail is where you want to go, right?

A handheld controller is $300.  (A generic handheld smartphone used as a controller is $40.)
Absolutely true (street prices lower). But RailPro is also a once-and-done solution to get you to dead rail requiring no other hardware/software. Smartphones alone won't run trains. Computer, wi-fi, router, JMRI, DCC interface, etc.

 It seems Rail Pro uses a proprietary protocol, it is not DCC compatible.  Of maybe it just does not respond to track signals.
True, RailPro is not DCC. However, it becomes a moot point. Dead rail locomotives don't care how the electricity at the motor and light components was managed en route, only that the proper voltages are present to get the desired action. 

I am not selling you on RailPro. It is a niche product that is not right for everybody. But in this case it makes good sense. Gets you immediately to where you want to eventually end up with none of the intermediate step cost in time and materials.

Start with the SPROG

Start with the SPROG, the latest version should be able to run multiple trains. I suspect that you might find that this runs satisfactorily and you may never have a reason to ever change from there!

Anything is possible

Hi Delowing,

It sounds like a fascinating project. 

If you're in O or G scale, it shouldn't be an issue to go radio control.  In HO, you'll be limited by the battery size/life. 

I just finished building four channel infrared throttle system for my N scale layout using Picaxe microprocessor and two H-Bridge modules.

Picaxe or Arduino + RF receiver + H-Bridge + Rechargeable Battery would get your project rolling quickly.

Absolutely Doable

I am currently running Tam Valley Depot transmitters and receivers in HO and Large Scale locomotives. I have been experimenting with track, battery and track/battery Uninterpretable Power Supply (UPS) power to determine which power supply system will meet my needs. Since the Stanton S-Cab, Tam Valley DRS and NCE D13DRJ receive NMRA DCC signals, these products can provide a very clean and compatible transition from track powered DCC to wireless control.

Dead Rail

You need to go on the Dead Rail Society web site and ask some questions. Dead Rail RC/battery power is alive and well in scales from N to G. CVP is what I use and I will not go back. Transmitter is about $150.00 convertr (the receiver) (spelling is from CVP, EasyDCC) is $100.00. If your loco is DCC already all you have to do is connect the decoder to the convertr, disconnect the rail pickups connect a battery, and play train. CVP transmitter will operate Stanton S-CAB and the NCE D13DRJ  well as the CVP convertr (receivers). (I don't know if sound is available with NCC)

If sound is not important to you check out the Deltang system. It is the cheapest way to get into Dead Rail.

I was an engineer on the UP for 37 years, and I didn't care to run model trains until I tried out Dead Rail at the NNGC in Pasadena in 2013.

I model in On30 and my largest engine (2-8-0) will pull 30 cars (all I have) with sound with a small 280 milliampere battery for 55 minutes, before I have to change the battery. That takes about 15 seconds and you put the spare battery on the charger, and in about 49 to 50 minutes it is charged and ready to go.

If your layout is wired leave it. Turn it on or leave it unplugged. Makes no difference to battery powered R/C Dead Rail. 

New products are coming out all the time. Bachmann is bringing out a blue tooth based system that will work off your smart phone. 

don g