Answers (Hopefully)

1. If the road locomotives were staying on the train (not being removed for servicing or anything), chances are they would do the switching, just because it reduces the number of moves to be made. At some yards, road power is serviced, and usually ends up on a different train. In those cases, a through train (with or without switching) would arrive and the power would be brought to the service track by either the road crew or yard hoslers. Usually whatever power is available is put on the train, so it does not have to wait for the power it arrived with to be ready. Even when the road power is going for servicing, the amount of switching to be done would probably determine what power gets the job. If it is one or two quick moves, the road power may do it. If it is going to be more involved switching, chances are the road power comes off and the local switch engine does the work. There is no definite number of moves to which the road power is limited, it is largely determined by the switch crew on duty and the yardmaster, if there is one.

2. Extra trains can have a predetermined call time. Even if they do not, chances are they would be called out around the same time every day anyway, because the needs of the customer would determine when industries are to be switched. Most industries would have a specific timeframe that is ideal for switching, usually when they are closed to business and not actively loading or unloading cars. This is why a lot of switching happens at night. Some industries operate on a 24/7 schedule, like the railroad, and have preferred times for switching. Others are only open during regular business hours, and like to have the cars by the time they open in the morning, so that their employees can start loading or unloading right away. Some industries do not care when they are switched, but want the railroad to call 20 minutes (or a predetermined time) before the switch crew gets there.

My experience working locals has always been that the cars tend to be a bit scattered in the yard, and the first order of business is to get them together and assemble the train. They may be on only one or two tracks, but usually those tracks hold a variety of other cars too. Of course, sometimes, they are scattered to all parts of the yard!

Depends

How all this was done varies greatly between roads, depending on union agreements and other factors.  I can describe some typical scenarios from my layout, but these may not apply to what your crews would be doing.

I have several through trains that do block swaps like what you seem to be describing.  For the most part, we have the road crew set out their cut onto a track in the yard as directed by the yardmaster, make the pick up from whichever track it may be on, put the train back together, and then leave.  The yard switcher then goes to work breaking down the new arrivals.  Sometimes we have the switcher do all the work after the road power cuts off.  Things can change based on the state of the yard when a train arrives, where the open tracks are, and/or where the pickup might be.

Some agreements stipulated that the road crew couldn't do much of anything (say pull the pin one time and couple one time) without getting an extra day's pay, others allowed say one pick up and one setout (meaning a block of cars).

This can of course vary too, but even unscheduled trains can run using more or less regular call times, departing with whatever's ready at the designated cutoff time.  Sometimes if the train is short, and the yard is aware of more cars for a local that are awaiting classification, the call time can be pushed back.  On the prototype, locals often run with the same crew every day, and they can get used to reporting for work at the same time.

Local length on my layout is determined mostly by siding capacity (so the local won't be a non-clearing train that other movements can't easily get around).  We can also change things up if a particular customer has a larger than usual volume of cars.

On the WP in Utah, there were relatively few online customers, but they tended to be large.  A train like the Wendover local (Salt Lake City to Wendover on the UT/NV border) could end up with too many cars for all of its customers, in which case a separate local would be built for the run all the way to Wendover, and one or more others would work the industries closer to the yard.  There could be several such locals depending on traffic volume.  Another concern is the hours of service law, and whether the crew could be expected to complete its work before running out of hours.  

Era and location

You'd probably need to know the era and the railroad to know exactly how it was done? Trains were run in different ways over the years. Length of run ,tonnage, etc. all affect the way they do it. Some eras had a lot more local traffic than others thus more way freights compared to todays mostly  long distance runs....DaveB

All of the above, plus...

It does depend on era and railroad practice. I can tell you what we do in todays, or modern era setting. First off, I really like your question, as this is one of the areas that most operators and layout owners get mixed up, or if I may use the word, wrong. ( ducking for cover )

The middle yards, as I call them, are the ones between major terminals. Major terminals build and tear down whole trains and service the power, and remove the caboose or EOT. The yards that are in towns that are not railroad end points, I call middle yards.  This is normally where a road train, or through freight as you call it, will drop off cars from A on its way to Z. Yes, the head end set out works best for this operation. 

Now, that is usually where the crew will get off the train, yes, get off, and go to hotel. A new crew, the outbound, will show up and do the pick up, and if the pick up has already been air tested ( your yard engine maybe?) , then they will add the pick up to the headend, make a class 3 air test ( set and release) and make the appropriate calls to leave town. ( yardmaster, dispatcher, get a track warrant, ask for a signal, etc) 

If I may suggest, make the position of the outbound crew, the same person who runs your staging yard. That person can run a train in from staging, ( Z ), do the set out, and hand the train ( throttle) off to the crew taking it over the modeled layout. When a train arrives from A, the inbound would make the set out, then hand the throttle to the staging yard crew, and they make a pickup and run the train into the appropriate stage track. This gives another job to someone and they also know which train runs next, and which stage tracks are open. 

As for your locals, see above great answers, they are all extras. In our yards, all locals are run at specific times, on specific days. They are tied into customer demands. Some customers do not unload tank cars on weekends, who knew? Also, set one track in the yard aside for the local cars, but no need to block or switch them out. The lead jobs are too busy for that, and it gives the local more switching, and a chance to set the train up the way they want to run it. ( I.e. Gondolas up front, loaded tanks on the rear, depending on order of customers serviced.) 

Our locals go to work on the second or third shift, so customers get the cars pulled after they are done with their day, and deliver new ones before the start of their day.  If a local has a light customer load for the day, the yardmaster may assign them different tasks, such as air testing tracks for road trains to double, or dog catching or hostling. 

I hope this helps you design a great layout. Looking forward to your progress.

Thomas Gasior

Fantastic!

Guys, this is all fantastic information! I've learned tons from all of your replies. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions. 

Didn't think about including the era I'm seeking to model in my initial post, but I'm focusing on the mid-60s era so I can run 1st and 2nd generation diesels. How specifically might that change the info you've already provided?

Thomas - You mentioned the new crew (after the old crew goes to the hotel) would make the pick up and tack that on to the head end of the train? I guess I always thought the newly picked up cars would go to the end of the train, so cars destined for other "middle" yards further down the line would always be behind the engines.

Prototype Running

Everything said makes sense; however, no one brought up a factor that is important. Our club recently had an operating "open house" and enough scheduled trains on the dispatcher's sheet for at least 10 operators. PROBLEM - only 6 people showed up. 

Given "call offs" and other factors, you should be prepared to modify your operations. Perhaps a block set off and pick up works best due to lack of crews. Delayed "locals" may better suit the situation. Hopefully, due to weather or flu or whatever, you don't end up being the only crew member there. 

As for me, my personal point-to-point 2.5 x 27 ft. switching layout can be operated either by the five crew slots available or by the owner. In any case - enjoy!

Additional Points

Some of this has been covered, but a few thoughts to flesh things out.

This is all pretty common.

Never say never, but this is not typical. There are certain specific (large) terminals where yard crews will make the switching moves at the rear of the train while the road units are serviced, etc., but in these cases both the setout and lift are done in the same location, and the train would be blocked accordingly from its origin with the setouts on the rear for the switch crew to take off. This is the exception, not the rule. (That is, it would be consistently done that way for that particular train at that terminal, but this is not common in most locations, and likely not in any terminal that's actually of a realistic modelable size.)

Generally the road crew and engines will do their thing here. Uncouple, shove the cars to a designated track, pick up their lifts, couple back onto the train.

Yes, this might put the lifts in front of setoffs for another yard down the line, or they might make an additional move or three to block the lifts in behind that.

One thing I haven't clearly seen referenced is that sending out a train isn't exactly as simple as once the cars are ready it can go. These times aren't that fluid.

Engines must be available, assigned and serviced.

Crews must be available, called and scheduled.

This means a minimum lead time of several hours just to prepare things even if all of the power and crew resources are readily available; it's not like at a model operating session where you can just grab the next guy standing around. I think that unscheduled extras pretty much need to be planned out 12-24 hours in advance. Particularly if engines or crews need to be dead-headed around because of an unusual build up of traffic requiring a true "extra" train or additional sections of scheduled trains.

A local assignment that isn't a "regular" timetabled schedule, but none the less does run on a daily or regular basis may run always operationally as an extra with no printed schedule in the timetable, but would have a consistent duty time for the yard to have it prepared, the hostler to have engines ready and crews to be called and arrive on duty.

If the road crew has to do a certain amount of their own switching to assemble the train and get it ready to go, it's actual departure time might vary based on the amount of work, but the local crew would expect to report for duty at a consistent time each day.

Things might be a little different for road crews called off the spare board for crewing long distance through trains, but they still would need to be called a few hours in advance of the planned time for the crew change.

"I'm seeking to model in my

  Along with the era you need to consider the location. What part of what railroad are you modeling? Real railroads can be studied while a freelanced line needs a constructed outline of the modeled scene's position in the local and national rail network so you can realistically portray the traffic that would be coming and going. They don't just run real trains for the fun.Once you have the scenario then you can develop the schedule and the operating procedures to suit the needs of the scene.The 60's was a time of transition, railroads were winding down the old local traffic revenue model and starting to develop the more modern long distance hauler model so you'll need to decide how far along your line is in that change over ...DaveB 

​

Paul

There have been some posts on here to indicate some of this. But there are some things to consider. Since the train is traveling through this location on your layout the whole train will not get classified. The folks that build the train will likely set it up for the least amount of work in route possible. For example the cars are likely to get blocked for each destination. A typical through train will have drops at different destinations as well as pick ups. Pick ups will likely be done in a yard on a through train as will drops. It would then make sense for a train to have one or two intermediate stops before reaching the next point where the train was classified.

If the train pulls into the yard the paper work is in the caboose that gets handed off for the cars that stay behind. It may also already exist at the yard as well. If the drops are at the end where the caboose is the cut can be removed and the cut added at the same end with less connections to the train, the new cars connect where the old ones were. The main power stays coupled and eliminates one set of movements in the yard. The train then completes it's brake test and goes on its way.

As to the cars being all over the yard the switch crew sure should know a train is inbound when it leaves the last yard it was in and what cars are ready to go and should have a string ready for when the train arrives. Asmart crew will begin grouping cars by destination and type of train when they arrive in the yard not after a train arrives and says I need your east bounds.

The key to finding out how it works is to look at what is there and trying to find the easiest way to accomplish the goals, doing that will be realistic. You can be the guys running around in the heat and cold and rain are thinking about it.

Depends, again

Another thing to consider is that in your era (mid to late 60's) the ground crew would not have portable radios so that all the work would be done using hand/lantern signs. This means that for the road crew to do work off the rear of the train someone (or more than one)  will have to be in position to relay the signs between head and rear ends. This is why you have 5 man crews. It's not impossible, and it wasn't necessarily unusual, but you may decide to avoid rear end set outs and pickups for that reason. Remember that your operators (or you if you operate solo) have 5 people available to do the work in route.

Just Keeps Getting Better

This post just keeps getting better and better for me! My prototype knowledge is growing by leaps and bounds! I hope other MRH readers are benefiting from these replies as much as I am. 

Dave - To answer your question about locale, my layout is a freelanced design situated somewhere in the N&W Pokey region of the West Virginia/Kentucky Boarder. 

Chris - Very informative reply. Really helped build on and clarify the thoughts that previous responders got going in my mind. I have a much better idea of the responsibilities for the yard crew and the road crew, and how they work together.  Your thread also helped me with proper terminology. Thanks!

With each new reply I've gone back to the drawing board to run virtual trains on my track plan and try out the new ideas. One thing I've come to realize is just how busy a yard crew can really get. I'm having to readjust my thinking on what the yard crew will do. Initially I thought the yard crew would switch cars for a specific local freight onto a designated yard track, and also block the cars according to the industry they will be delivered at. My guess is that in an operating session with multiple crews, they may not have time to do that, so it will be up to the local freight's crew to rearrange the cars to suit their switching preferences. Chris' reply seemed to indicate that as well. Which leads to another question that came to mind. I assume the local freight crew would typically do that switching within the yard limits before leaving for their intended destination, correct? Perhaps at the less busy end of the yard so as not to get in the way of the yard crew. Or might they also do that when they reach theit intended destination? 

Given what I've already learned I'm going to venture a guess in an effort to answer my own question - it depends! It probably happens both ways depending on what track space is available, and how busy things are in the yard. That gives me various operational situations for the local freight crew, hopefully increasing operational satisfaction for all!

Again, thanks for the great replies!

"It depends"

Paul, I think that's the answer to a LOT of questions about prototype railroading.   In my mind, just as important as learning what the prototype does, is learning why, because standard practices only get you so far before Plan A gets discarded.

One thing I'd mention regarding the blocking of your pulls from the yard:  At least on my prototype, those won't be inserted at the front or rear specifically, but according to how the train is blocked.  If the next three intermediate yards are in towns A, B, and C and you're pulling a cut destined for town B, it'd be placed adjacent to the other cars for town B.  This is called picking up "in block".  However, if the crew is short on time (that whole "it depends" thing again), they might be told to place the pull on the head end to save time.

@ Joe

Hey Joe!

Glad to hear you agree with my answer. Just goes to show...I can be taught!  

I agree with your blocking instructions. Right now my car forwarding doesn't go that far. Shipments from industries on my layout, or empty cars being routed back to the home road simply have eastbound or westbound designations so I know the direction of the through freight which should make the lift. I'll definitely keep your suggestion in mind though for future operational possibilities. A lot will depend on what kind of use I can make of the 5 available yard tracks I have. I have a 6th track but that is the arrival track/siding which I'd like to keep clear as much as possible. So I guess the next thing I need to learn about the prototype is how a yard crew would make use of the available tracks in the most efficient way possible. The link given in one of the earlier replies was a good intro to that, but I'd like to learn more.

On more of a modeling note, I will also need to determine how I will decide what portion of the through freight will be dropped off at my local yard. I've thought about throwing a dice and if it lands on 1 or 2, then the cut comes off the head end of the train, 3/4 would be the middle, and 5/6 would be the tail end of the train. That seems a little hokey to me, but maybe that would go well with the locale I'm modeling on the N&W - because then I'd be doing the Hokey Pokey!  (Can't believe I actually said that!)

P.S. Great write up on the fast clock in this months issue. The company that sells that clock might have to put you on commission, because after reading the article I immediately thought - "I got to get me one of those!"

Question to Joe

What kind of scenario would have a yard crew switch a car into a train not in the same block of cars for a town?  I ask because (at least for the 1950s) though there were exceptions, often there was not a rush to deliver cars.  What I mean is, there was a certain time that cars for a particular train would have to be in the yard for it to go out on the current train being assembled, Cars arriving after that time, would get put on the next days' train, no big deal.  I'm not saying it did not happen, I am just attempting to understand what kind of scenario would have a yard crew add a car to a train that was "out of sequence".  Unless I have misunderstood you completely.

Ken L>

"my layout is a freelanced

   Ok, Now I think the next step would be to figure out what volume and type of traffic came thru this location. What local industries need to be served, How many industries are served from the modeled yards? How many thru trains are needed and how many of them made set outs and pickups along they way and specifically in your modeled yards? Coal trains are gonna be operated differently than manifests for example so you need an overall plan then the small parts will fall into place ......DaveB

Paul and Ken

Blocking isn't so much a matter of car forwarding as it is just knowing the order in which the subsequent towns in each direction fall.  The block for the closest town will be on the head end, and each subsequent block will be for a town further away, with the most distant location at the rear.  

You also don't need a separate track for each block.  You might be able to fit blocks for towns A-F all on one track, or A-D on one track and E-F on a second.  If the latter, the pickup just has to double over to the second track.

Your car forwarding will determine that for you.  Whether you're using car cards or something like my Railquik program, cars generated for your through trains will likely be a combination of local spots that'll be set out at your yard, and through cars that'll simply move over the railroad and back to staging.

Thanks!  I think you'll really be pleased with the ISE fast clocks.

On the IAIS, while it's not the norm, if a crew is short on hours and they have a choice between missing a pull completely or making it out of block, it seems like they more often do the latter.  I'm guessing that's perhaps a combination of there being a rush for those particular cars at times (even on "low priority" bulk commodities, e.g. to keep grain moving to feed a hungry ethanol plant) as well as preventing a backlog from developing, under-utilizing the power allocated to today's train and requiring additional units for the next day's iteration. 

By the way Paul, since you mentioned terminology, I think the use of the term "lift" is more of a Canadian thing.  In the US, my experience has been that it's commonly called a "pull" (typically for customers) or a "pickup".

Yard Ops

Let's shift a bit and talk about the yard switchers' operation now.

We'll pick up where the road crew has left off.

When the through train arrived, it set off a set of cars. Those cars were blocked together at the through train's origin to be set off as a unit at this yard. But that's all that the origin yard needed to do - put them together as a set to be dropped off at this yard. There could be half a dozen different destinations or blocks *out* of this yard that they need to be sorted (classified) to by the yard switcher.

So, at the moment, after the cars are set out, that track would be labeled as "Unsorted". At some point, the yardmaster (or whichever person is performing those duties) will go over the list of cars and determine their destinations and how to sort them to other tracks in the yard.

When the switcher goes to switch that track, they'll pull the entire track at once and sort out the whole thing, putting cars from that track into sorted blocks on other tracks.

Then, when another through train arrives to pick up cars, or a local is prepared for departure, they simply need to be given the track on which their assigned cars are on, couple onto those cars and pull them. The road train doesn't go hunting through the yard for their cars; they just take what is prepared for them, anything that missed their connection simply goes out on the next train (probably the next day) after they've been sorted.

There will usually be a planned cut-off time for preparing cars for departure for a train. When the train arrives, you don't want it to be waiting because the switcher is still moving a couple of cars from its current switchlist into that track. Also, there's a few other things going on that usually don't get modeled, as these steps aren't required on the model, but are part of the prototype preparation, and done by local carmen. Things like a basic inspection for defects, connecting air hoses and opening brake valves, etc. This requires an hour or two and blocking off access to the track with blue flag protection so the poor carman doesn't get killed when another car is slammed into that cut while he's connecting an air hose between two cars.

"In Block"

Thanks Joe, this is an example of the kind of thing I was thinking of in my earlier reply.

And also, if they've already had one pickup before this at another intermediate yard, if they just lifted that at the head end, their set outs block for this yard could end up being further back in the train now.

@ Chris - Yard Ops

Chris,

Thanks for picking up where the road crew left off and describing the yard crews work in such detail.

There is one thing I'm a little confused on now though. In your last reply you said...

That makes it sound to me like the local yard crew will block the outgoing local freight cars so they are in station order when the crew takes this train to drop off cars at the local industries. Which makes perfect sense. They're doing the same thing on a smaller scale as the larger sub-division yard did in blocking the cars for the initial through freight that dropped a block of cars off at this yard.

However in an earlier reply to this post where you were talking about the local way freight you also mentioned...

When I first read that it made it sound like the yard crew didn't put the cars in station order, and that the way freight crew would have to do that themselves before heading out on the mainline to deliver the cars to the local industries.

Am I missing something here, or getting something confused? 

Local Work

Paul,

OK, I see how that was a little confusing, and maybe I confused myself a little there too while writing.

I should clarify in my response that I'm not a professional railroader, just a big fan of watching and studying ops, and running detailed operations on our club layout.

Some things can vary from yard to yard, but if there is an assigned yard switcher(s), it would generally be as the first point - the yard prepares the outbound block, and the road train lifts (or pulls) it.

If the yard tracks are short and there's a lot of traffic, it's possible that it might be doubled into multiple tracks, which means when the road crew comes on duty they might have to lift track 2, 5 and 6 and combine them all into their train. With a conductor or brakeman on the ground connecting the air hoses and walking back to the engine(s), this could take an hour or more to do those simple moves.

And of course if there's other trains or engines causing congestion, there's all sorts of other opportunities for delays.

If it's a smaller more remote yard that *doesn't* have its own switcher, then the local freight would have to do all their own switching, but we've kind of mainly been assuming a location with a dedicated switcher in most of this discussion so far.

Reply

Chris - Got it now. Kind of thought that's what you meant but wasn't quite sure. Thanks for the clarification. 

Now it's back to the track plan to play with more trains and put all my new found knowledge to good use.

Thanks everyone!

Shutdown cars and backhauling

Ken, in thinking about this further, I was reminded of another factor that can play into the decision to make a pickup out of block.  I don't think it would have been a factor in your 1950s era, but in more recent times, with the move toward just-in-time supply in order to avoid tying up money in inventory by warehousing inbound commodities, the importance of the steady arrival of inbound product has increased.  If a car is delayed, the customer can be forced to shut down production temporarily until it arrives, leading the railroads (or at least the one I model) to refer to these as "shutdown cars".  

The commodity a shutdown car carries may be very mundane, but due to the consequences of a late arrival, such cars are considered high-priority and treated accordingly.  The implications of missing delivery of a shutdown car are so serious that the IAIS will go so far as calling an extra crew - an expensive proposition - just to get that one car spotted on time.  So if a shutdown car is involved and a crew is short on time, they would definitely make a pickup out of block vs. leaving it for the next day's train.

For lower-priority shipments, another option is for a train in the opposite direction of the car's destination to pull it, backhaul to the next primary yard, and set it out there for forwarding.  For example, a westbound car might be pulled by an eastbound train, taken to the next major yard to the east, and then placed on the next westbound train or pickup that's built there.  Doing so saves that westbound from having to make an additional stop for the pickup, and could be the difference between them completing their work in their hours of service or having a dogcatch crew called to finish it.