Ken

I'm having similar ideas, but in a different line of thought.  That model of the room I built happens to be very strong.  It is built of foam core that I glued together.  I know there are lots of reasons to build layouts the traditional way, but I'm curious what I could build out of foam core and the 1" and 2" layers of blue foam I have on hand.  This could be supported by metal shelf brackets attached to the walls.  I think I can use shish-kabob skewers as pegs.  I have also considered metal brads as a source of pegs. Anyway I want to experiment with some foam core to see what happens.  I have some ten pound weights that will be fine for testing.  I wonder if I can build test modules that can stand up to ten pound weights?

Den

I have used fibre ceiling

I have used fibre ceiling tiles with just light wood support every foot or so. That section is over 10 years old and contains my main yard. Never had problem with the support. The room is climate controlled. My very first section is 2" foam insulation with light wood support. I laid track right on top of the foam. Although it has been stable for years, I don't like the sound, and difficulty of it as a scenery base. But it is definitely strong enough for sub terrain. 

Wonder why the term "benchwork" was originally used anyway. It is not a bench in any sense, it is not a table, nor a shelf. It is a platform to display and play with trains, and contain and support the scenery. Other than visiting gorillas that tend to lean on the layout like a bar in a port city, it needs very little support.

Steve        

Beadboard

DK:

i am building a railroad using lots of blue expanded polystyrene foam, it works great.  I would recommend against beadboard, which is much weaker, very crumbly, hard to carve and generally, in my opinion unsuitable.

I also have a bias against ceiling tiles, they tend to shed fibres over their lifetimes unless heavily encapsulated in paint.

Jeff Fry

Will Tennessee Pass fit in my basement?

Foamboard Modules

Ken,

I have some FreeMo-esk modules (2x4 and 2x5.5) that weigh so little that I have to be careful while carrying them in the wind. The are quite strong, but will dent. I have not tried to break one (I'm too cheep), but I have glued some scraps together then tried to break the joint. The foam broke, after much effort, before the joint. I can detect NO longitudinal or lateral flexing. They will twist from opposite corners with enough effort. Some of these modules use plywood ends and others have only "bite-plates" on the insides of the ends because they get clamped together with C-clamps at shows. They all have 4" tall sides with a 2" thick top and no internal bracing. Gorilla glue is all I use to hold them together.

If you're interested I'll take some construction pictures in the morning.

Dick

How about using strapping tape

My thought here is to adhere strips to the top and bottom of the under layer and to the under side of the top layer.  I'm not sure the tape adhesive will stick to the subject materials sufficiently.   Strapping tape has some excellent tensile properties unto itself.  The trick will be getting a good bond to the two materials.  The stress has to be transferred to the tape.  If successful, any sag would be neutralized.  You can still easily poke a hole accidently in a non taped area.  Maybe a star tape pattern would be enough to minimize those occurrences.

Just off the top of my head at midnight,

Larry

"My thought here is to adhere

"My thought here is to adhere strips to the top and bottom of the under layer and to the under side of the top layer.  I'm not sure the tape adhesive will stick to the subject materials sufficiently.   Strapping tape has some excellent tensile properties unto itself.  The trick will be getting a good bond to the two materials.  The stress has to be transferred to the tape.  If successful, any sag would be neutralized.  You can still easily poke a hole accidently in a non taped area.  Maybe a star tape pattern would be enough to minimize those occurrences.'

  You could staple strapping tape to the side members in a criss- cross pattern like they use under chair seats but it still wouldn't be as stiff as a few wooden cross members. The stiffness of a beam is related to the depth so the taller the side and cross members the stiffer a module will be. It doesn't require much weight to make it stiff, the thickness of the members doesn't matter much so a 1/4 inch thick cross member 4 inches tall would be stiffer than  a 1 inch thick cross member that's only  1 inch tall( assuming they are both the same strength material).  I view a wooden frame under a layout section as an advantage as it gives some depth to hide wiring, switch motors, etc. It's pretty hard to make a typical size module or layout section too heavy to carry around easily so I never worry too much about making them lighter. DaveB

Foamcore, and what our trains actually weigh (over distance)

Dear Den,

Firstly, please check the following threads:

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/18011

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/18802?page=2

Now, onto the questions In order of appearance:

Whether you are looking at building "dominos" or "Full Proscenium" modules, either pure-foamcore or Foamcore+Extruded-Foam is certainly a do-able combination. Engineered correctly, either solution is imminently suitable for home-use, or "Light Touring" missions.

Very do-able, esp if the brackets are topped with some form of continous spanning member.

Pegs? Unsure if I understand?

A quick MRH Search or Google Search will provide you with prior-art examples, but suffice to say:
- a single thickness of 3/16" foamcore over a 16' span will support a typical N train

- dual laminated thicknesses of 3/16" over 16" span will handle most HO and many On30 locos

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2013-09-sep/layout-chicago-fork

http://www.carendt.com/articles/build-peeks-pike/

http://www.carendt.com/small-layout-scrapbook/page-87-july-2009/

​
- dual laminated thickness + roadbed (total 3 thicknesses laminated) of 3/16" will support a 2 kilo (4 1/2 pound) O 2R CLW Brass GP35 with ease, and will support a 4 kilo (9 pound) Sunset brass 2-6-6-2 Challenger with zero deflection if properly mated to the (also foamcore) module base.

http://www.carendt.com/small-layout-scrapbook/page-97a-may-2010/#chicago

Multiple-10s-of-pounds static-load honesty sounds like overkill,
unless you genuinely intend to build a layout with the express purpose of being able to walk on it...

Said all-foamcore modules have also survived layout trailer rollovers, being thrown in and out of passenger vehicles, and travelled a few 1000 kilometres between shows with no signs of stress, damage, or warpage.

A proscenium module such as shown here

http://www.krmodels.com.au/module.html

could easily be adapted to host a sheet of extruded foam within the base "domino"...
(kinda like what Mario R does here...http://www.modvid.com.au/html/body_aluminium_modules.html )

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Foam(core) Benchwork ...

The Professor knows his stuff in this arena.  Properly engineered (i.e., following the guidance of the proven examples provided) will produce a very light weight base that is very strong.  The key is the "egg crate" design using the vertical members to provide stiffness without adding much weight.  Construction is simple and only simple tools are required, just a sharp knife and glue ... no noise, no dust.

No, you will not be able to walk on it, or even crawl on it; however, it will easily support the trains.  The only significant disadvantage that I've come across is that you can't screw things into it like you can with wood.  I had considered using a sheet of 6 mm ply wood as the first layer of my baseboard, just to have something to mount things using screws ... but, in the interest of saving weight, I've decided to simply glue a small plywood mounting plate to the foamcore sheet in any areas where I may want to mount something under the baseboard.  I think that if you try it, you will like it.

For our Christmas layout, we

For our Christmas layout, we built (HO scale) a layout on a 3" thick 4'-0" x 14'-0" foam-aluminum composite roof panel.  It is supported on each end by a saw horse and is strong enough to walk on, although we don't.  This is the same material Sunroom walls and roofs are made from.  Everything sticks to the aluminum skin very well with glue and when it is time to put it away, we remove the buildings, automobiles and any other loose items and the two of us can pick it up and move it to our storage unit, it's that light.  Track, scenery and wiring all stay in place.  It has lasted 3 years now with no problems or damage.

look at RR in a box

Hard to explain but they use all foamcore shapes cut to interlock like box stiffeners. Using this type of structure with minimal wood support you could build an entire layout out of foamcore. check them out at rrinabox.com

All your stuff above

Sounds good, but here is the elephant in the room.  Contrary to popular opinion, in heat (i.e. non conditioned rooms like a garage) Blue foam *DOES* shrink slightly.

That's one of the reasons I tore up my previous layout when I was going to move anyway.  I stripped the track and as much as I could off the modules and tossed them.  The one remaining module using blue foam I am going to go over the top of with 1/4 inch plywood and cut the top of the lake out of the plywood to seal the edges of the module.

Spackling the edges between the foam and the wood doesn't work either as the whole thing just cracks around the edges.

As for support, as long as the foam can rest on something on the bottom side, support is not the issue.  (I had wood strips around the edges supporting the foam, but the nails had to go into the side rails and the blue foam would not hold them.)

And finally, if you want to nail down track - forget it.  There is nothing to hold the nails down!.  I used white glue to put cork roadbed down, then nailed the track thru the roadbed.  Only the roadbed held the track down.

@ Prof Klyzlr

I thought I recognized the YouTube video.  So, Prof, whatever happened to that layout?  Was it just an experimental thing we now call a chainsaw layout?  I'm curious to see how you did the scenery.

Den

Other than visiting gorillas

Reading that makes the back of my hands sore. I find your analogy very humorous as one of the guys in our club refers to the members with out internet connections as knuckle draggers. This has been going on for a while and the guys repeatedly complain about their hands being sore. One of the guys is Mr. hands on who has to touch everything. He is the guy that would be walking through a mine field and grab the first one he found and hold it up for you to see, if he survived he would do the same with the second one. 

Foamboard Modules

Rich,

I would really like to see some construction pictures of what you did. I have been toying with the same idea because I would like to make a FreeMo type layout so when I can pass it on to my grandkids or donate to another organization it wouldn't take much to do so. I'm relatively new at railroading (3-4 years) but leaning lots all the time so your pictures and input would be a real help.

Thanks,

Harry kuarek  Superior, WI.

Extruded Foam Expansion/contraction

Dear MRHers,

Um, a little unclear about extruded foam thermal expansion, when

- DOW StyroFoam ("Blue Foam") measured against US standards,
rates at 0.000035" per inch of sheet length, per degree F increase

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0884/0901b803808848d4.pdf?filepath=styrofoam/pdfs/noreg/179-04435.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc
(check table on page 2 " Coefficient of Linear Thermal Expansion, ASTM D696, in/in•°F ")

- As does Owens Corning Foamular ("Pink Foam")

http://insulation.owenscorning.com/assets/0/428/429/431/0538f0de-3893-4e8a-a0c0-5de11b913061.pdf
(Check Page 2 " Linear Coeffi cient of Thermal Expansion, in/in/ºF (m/m/°C) ASTM E228 ")

IE any such levels of dimensional flexing are unlikely to be a source of mechanical issue to track and alignment, assuming all is installed with due care and appropriate techniques.

As far as cracks in surface landform appearing, this only suggests to me that the landform material is comparably rigid, and potentially fragile. Some modellers have moved away from solid plaster-cast rocks, esp on mobile and show layouts, for similar reasons. For those using Selleys NoMoreGaps and similar acrylic caulking materials as the primary landform surface, any such issue is neatly avoided.

RE Pinning track, no such issues when using foamcore or other roadbed on top of the foam-proper, or gluing handlaid wood sleepers direct to the foam itself, and using PECO SL-14 spikes...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Narrowgauge Downunder

Once featured an OO9 layout built entirely of foamcore. It functioned correctly.

Also, one of the British magazines had a letter from a reader saying that they had more shorts than if one emptied ones washbasket on their layout when using track nails; some brands of foamcore, and the suppliers probably don't even know, have layers of metal foil, so just glue the track on.

I wouldn't use the blue foam sheet.

Australian equivalent

Can anyone (esp the Prof) tell me the Australian equivalent for foamcore or the 2 inch insulation foam sheets. All the stuff I can find is made up of little beads which are horrible little creatures when cut or carved.  By the sounds of it would prefer the pink insulation sheet but...Have tried building supplies with no luck. Suggestions please?

thanks 

Darrin

Hi Darrin. I was visting 

Hi Darrin.

I was visting  Bunnings  in Sydney last week, for work. I notice down  by the trade desk they had 50mm thick and 25mm  thick sheets of  insulation foam sheets.in a yellow   type colour.Same stuff  as what the US lads get.

Regards Phil

DKRickman...

I happen to use this technique.  I built three modules using 2" Lowes foam insulation with cabinet-grade plywood as the frame.  They are ~23" wide and 46" long on two of them, and the last is 23" x 72".  I have now started on the ends of the layout to match the modules.  This part is built using standard benchwork (recycled from the last layout).  I'll provide some pictures when I get the chance.  This is my third layout - the last one was made with 11/2" Dow pink foam.  I never had issues with shrinkage.  For both modules, the cork roadbed is secured to the foam using regular caulking first, and then the track is attached using the same.  I'm using ME weathered code 83 flex and Peco turnouts.

Xmas Layout

rbryce. What did you use for snow on the structures and the land?

Foam and Foamcore in Aust

Dear Darrin,

Whereabouts are you located? Blue (DOW) and Pink (Owens-Corning) foam is available in the Western Suburbs of Sydney, and within metro Melbourne, reasonably readily.

Alternatively, as Hobbes notes, Bunnings is now stocking the KNAUF brand 300kpa compressive-strength "ClimaFoam" extruded foam sheets in 30 and 50mm thicknesses. You may have to ask at the Trade desk to find it. (Balgowlah has it on the elevated Tradie storage area where the dimensional timber is held,
Belrose has it stashed waaaaaaay up in the pallet racking near the Carpet section...)

http://www.knaufinsulation.com.au/en-au/insulation/climafoam-xps-board.aspx

NB that Knauf are based in QLD, so if you're in that state, you have a better chance of sourcing it than those of us in other states...

Foamcore is readily available, head to your local Art Supply store for 40x30 and sometimes single-sheet quantities of 60x40 inch 5mm sheets. (Realistically, if you have any interest in model railroading beyond "track on plank" operations, it's a wise move to always know where your nearest Art Supply Store is! ).

If you're looking at taking on a reasonable-sized project, a quick ring around your local Picture Framing stores will likely result in a source of 10-sheet carton foamcore which comes in at around half (or less!) of what you'll pay-per-sheet thru the Art stores. For myself, a local wholesaler has 25-sheet cartons for under $10/sheet. For the ammount of Foamcore I use, this is a good deal, and means I always have stocks on-hand...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Foam and foamcore in Australia

Thanks for the information. Located Young (near Wagga) NSW. Local hardware never heard of any of it but heading to Sydney next week so will chase up then. Once again, many thanks. This MRH forum is absolute font of knowledge.

Bunnings Wagga : Quote these numbers...

Dear Darrin,

- Head to Bunnings Wagga

http://www.bunnings.com.au/stores/nsw/wagga-wagga 

- Head directly to the Trade desk

- Quote the following "FineLines" numbers
("FineLines" is the Bunnings Aust-wide Internal Stock Database)

1200 x 600 x 50 XPS sheet : FineLines FL 0811028   $20/sheet

1200 x 600 x 30 XPS sheet : FineLines FL 0811027   $12/sheet

Any Bunnings staffer who has a Staffer Log-in, given a valid FL-number,
should be able to tell you:
- If the store has any of the item in-stock
- which aisle it's in
- If they do not have any, where the nearest Bunnings is that does have stock
- how much that store has in stock
- and be able to order it in for you...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

​PS Use this knowledge wisely, some Bunnings staffers don't take well having a "civilian" seemingly know how their internal systems and Inventory Database works...
(Get more flies with honey... ).

Foamcore Wagga

Dear Darrin,

Alternatively, if you're after Foamcore, try contacting these guys

http://www.wagga-pictureframes.websyte.com.au/site.cfm?/wagga-pictureframes/

or these

Riverina Framing

Foamcore is commonly used by Picture Framers as the base for the images. 60x40 inch 5mm thick foamcore should be available by the carton (10 - 25 sheets, depending on the carton/source the framer uses).

Alternatively, consider ordering online from Eckersleys

Eckersleys Foamcore Page

(While you're cruising the Eckersley's site, check their range of Winsor-Newton "water mixable oil" paints. These come highly regarded by many leading-lights in weathering... ).

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr