As one of those "critics"

As one of those "critics" that pointed out all the changes you can make to the layout, let me say this much. You worry too much. I've seen the plans for other layouts that my fellow instigators have come up with, and have liked them all. Have we made any bad suggestions yet? (The engine yard, car cards, etc?) IF ya don't like part of the design, or want to make changes, nobody is gonna jump on you!

Relax and enjoy the process. You worry too much. No wonder your hair is so white!!!

Horace Fithers told me the

Horace Fithers told me the way to a duck free layout is to sprinkle poultry seasoning in strategic locations. When the ducks smell that they leave in a big hurry...

Charlie

I can take it, once

I can endure a single duckunder, or more desriptively a hands-and-kness crawlunder, if it is only to gain entrance and exit to the entire operating area, but not if continuous ducking/crawling is needed to operate.

Not 'worrying', just a realistic concern about the unknown

kbkchooch quote: Relax and enjoy the process. You worry too much. ...

Yeah Karl I know, my wifes always telling me that.  I'm just remembering it took me five years to build this current layout due to Murphys Law surprises, so naturally I'm a tad reluctant to tear it down.  But I'm gonna go ahead and do it anyway.  I know you guys aren't pointing a gun at my head - I've hated those duckunders since I started and I definitely want to get rid of them.  [BTW the white hair is just a sign of my Nordic genes, it would've happened either way..!]

Charlie - there aren't any more of those kind of ducks in my area, the Canada Geese chase chased them all away!

Mark - your reply confirms exactly why I'm going this route

Hey Ken, call me when you are

Hey Ken, call me when you are ready for teardown.

I've got a new Poulan 20" chain saw that I'm just dying to use!!!

Maybe we should plan on ordering Chinese for lunch. It only seems right that we should dine on something with duck sauce!

Ducking

When I operate.. I find that duck unders are tolerable when the ducking is easy.. that is.. you can duck under rather then crawl under.. and when you only occasionally have to do so. In example, a duck into a yard pit where you spend the next hour or two or a duck to get to an industry you switch once during a job. When ducking occurs along the mainline as a regular part of operation during a session it gets old fast. Very fast.

Personally, I have no duck unders as a firm given, but as an N scaler its easier for me to achieve that in my plans.

Chris

Bottom line on duck-unders

If you can duck-under, and you're only building a chainsaw layout that will be gone soon, well, OK.

If this is a permanent layout, please know that what you can duck under now, you eventually will not be able to duck under.  I've found over the last 10 years that the hinge joint that I call my waist, is no longer a hinge joint.  It's more like a slightly flexing tree limb.  My current (and maybe final) layout has a lift section at the door, and all of the rest of it is accessible by standing.

That was Then, This is Now

Chris - that's certainly a selling point for N scale, if I was into that there never would've been any duckunders on my pike either. 

When I first started this thing, the "landlady" (you-know-who) said she had to have all these semi-permanent shelf racks that lined the walls of our garage.  That pretty much forced me to build an island layout, and with 36" radius curves and 3 peninsulas, duckunders were a necessary compromise.  Recently, however, I've been given the green light to get rid of these shelf racks, after I find alternative storage for the stuff she has stored on them.  That will provide another 5 ft of width against two of the walls - so I'll have enough room to build two 6ft-diameter blobs.  Just barely, mind you - but they will fit!

Don - this is definitely NOT a chainsaw pike, it's probably my last opportunity to build a decent permanent layout while I'm still in good physical shape.

alternative storage for the stuff she has stored on them

Perhaps cabinets built under the layout...

I am going to have the same

I am going to have the same problem with my layout.... The "landlord" has already requested shelving but I have been reluctant to put anything "permanent" in place before getting the floorspace sorted out for the layout.  Likely going with a mushroom approach and with that will have lots of cabinet space on the "upper" level outside edge, unless the mushroom grows another appendage

Lift bridge

 Our club layout ended up with an unavoidable location where the mainline had to cross the main entry into the layout area.  We have made three attempts to solve this problem without a duck under.

The first was a relatively straight swinging bridge which went straight into our temporary staging yard.  This worked OK, but sagged and needed guides to align it properly.  It had to go when we started building the permanent trackage on the Romford side of the bridge.  It was replaced with a large and solid gate which allowed the track to cross it on a curve to align with the new helix entrance.  This one did not do well; it was so heavy and off balance that it twisted and warped and we ended up with permanent slow orders getting trains across it, and often had derailments because the rails wouldn't stay lined up.

We decided to get rid of that one and build a new lifting bridge:

The photo shows it when it was first put into service about 6 months ago.  Since then we added a second alignment adjustment to the free end, and now it's perfectly aligned every time and can be adjusted in case something moves, a real possibility in our building.

It uses two heavy duty hinges and long dovetail slot to receive the free end, which can be adjusted left and right and widened and narrowed to suit changes in the structure.  It also has height adjustments where it rests and an electromagnet to hold it down; the push button releases it if you want to go through.  Now that everything is adjusted, trains can roll right across at track speed, and it's very easy to get through, just push the button and lift, and after you're through, let it down, and it's back to perfect alignment again.

It gets constant use, and no one ducks under the bridge.

Light at the End of the Tunnel

Well, my friend came over and showed me an arrangement that just might work!  At least it will certainly be an improvement over what I currently have.  Now I just need to take his rough sketch and re-draw the curves accurately, and figure out where to relocate my lineside industries.  And see how quickly I can re-learn XtrkCAD so I can verify that everything will fit.

It's going to take a few months' worth of evenings and weekends, but as long as I stay focused on the 'prize' I don't think I'll burn out. 

I'll post a diagram on here after I've had a chance to work something up...

Mine would need more than a single bridge

Jurgen,

I can see where the heavy-duty bridge works fine with your layout: it's the only one, and [from what I can see] an operator dosen't need to go in-and-out of it continuously to run a train.  I would need 3 of those on my existing layout, and in the end I'd still have the problem of narrow aisles - maybe OK for a lone wolf, but not for a half-dozen operators.

bridge

I have a "bridge" I need only for mainline operation. Once it's in place you can duck under.

During the op sessions you don't have to pass it. Only if you want to go outside.

Not perfect - but it satisfies ALL my Givens & Druthers!

I told you all the other day that I would post a diagram on here of how I envision redoing my layout without duckunders.  Well, here it is; I'm sure a few of you will say something about the "reach" issue with my staging yard (blue trackage).  It's ~32 inches back.  This was one of the compromises i had to accept if I wanted the new layout to have all of my 'druthers' within the confines of my 'givens'.  The other was aisle width - the blob at the left end of my bottom peninsula wasn't in the original plan my friend sketched up for me, he had the main line looping around in the lower right corner.  He thought having a 4ft wide aisleway by the door would be a great thing.  My response is, #1 - I'll rarely host more than 3 or 4 guest operators at any one session, and #2 - I am NOT about to sacrifice an additional 28 linear feet of main line just to avoid pinch points.  A 2-foot opening is sufficient for one hefty-sized adult male pass thru comfortably; a 3-foot aisle is not exactly ideal, but at least it provides just enough space for two adult men to slip past each other.

One more thing: That bottom peninsula provides one of my most important druthers: a single-track main line that is visually isolated from the steel mill and other crowded urban trackwork. 

The center peninsula is my existing steel mill - saved intact, but flipped 180 degrees to accommodate the new arrangement.

I squeezed my division point yard into the bottom half of the top peninsula, with engine servicing facilities directly above it.  The blue tracks at the very top are operationally-separate, but still visible, staging for off-layout locomotives.  I'll figure out some type of minor visual block to put in front of them, but to uninformed visitors they just look like they're part of the regular visible engine terminal.  BTW - the turntable is only there for flipping single locomotives on point-2-point trains, I do not have plans (or enough real estate) to include a 3-stall roundhouse.

I'll have several small footstools available just in case anybody has trouble reaching the staging yard on the 'backbone' benchwork.  Most of the area in front of it is free of structures, other than the rolling mill building.

...and that's about it for now!

Access

You're right Ken about the access issues.

Might I suggest an alternative? Perhaps it might even be workable for you...

put a couple of 2 or 3 turn helixes (yeah, I used the 'H' word) in the lower right and upper left corner and drop those staging tracks down enough to tuck under the main benchwork. This would let you push the main benchwork to the 'right' taking a foot or so off the girth... er, width! or the benchwork against the right side. This could also increase mainline run by a foot or two. And make it a bit easier to access those buried staging tracks.

Access to buried staging isn't exactly great (unless you make those helixes with more than a couple of turns) but it wouldn't seem to be much worse than what's present now.

I'd also suggest that the right wall staging should be double ended. Or maybe combine the two staging areas into one large L shaped yard with a few more tracks (since they staging area and the visible areas no longer would need to share benchwork width).

Having the end of the lower peninsula so close to the stairs leading down looks like a safety issue. Someone paying more attention to their train than their surroundings might quite easily take what could become a fatal misstep there. You'll need to put up some kind of fence and gate around those to keep guests from becoming plaintiffs against you in a civil lawsuit for everything you own...

Best regards,

Charlie

8-foot trains don't appeal to me

Thanks for your input Charlie!

I originally had trurnouts on both ends of the staging yard like you suggested, but I discovered that it made my tracks too short.  I need a minimum of 15 feet for my coal drags, and 12 feet for my shorter 'jet' trains.  Those extra turnouts ate up 5 feet: If I shaped the yard like a parallelogram, my tracks were all 12 feet long - IOW, too short to accomodate my coal drags.  Flipping the turnouts to make a funnel-shaped yard, resulted in my bottom 3 tracks being way too short (8ft, 9ft and 10ft respectively).  My purpose for having double-ended staging was so I could include the locos on the trains (and thereby not need separate staging for the locomotives).   But an 8ft track won't allow me to park a train of any worthwhile length. 

LATER EDIT:  I just reworked the numbers and found I may not even need those loco staging tracks, as long as I can fit a minimum of 2 6-axle locos on each train parked in staging.  The staging yard on my existing layout doesn't have that capability.

As for helixes and dropping down the staging tracks: One of the avantages of the current design is that the maximum grade is 0.5%; this makes it possible for me to run live coal loads, an important operational attraction on my pike.  Right now I can pull 18 loaded 100-ton Bethgons with two 6-axle locos.  If I had to go up a 3% grade, I'd need at least 3x that number of engines.

Somehow I didn't notice what you originally mentioned about the downward stairs - good point.  I'm sure I can rig some type of safety rail/gate combination to protect that opening during op sessions.

32" reach?

When I came back to model railroading in May of 2008 and looked at my since scrapped model railroad I found that the 30 inch reach I had originally included was unacceptable. I couldn't reach that far even if I stood on my toes. The benchwork also wasn't sturdy enough to climb on either. So the decision had to be made to scrap it. I didn't really throw anything out at first but some things retrieved from that layout weren't worth saving because those things had been crushed or broken into tiny pieces by all of the debris that had been piled on them. So out went my motorized turntable and a few other things.

In any case, don't expect to get to anything 30 or more inches away from the edge of the layout unless you can both walk or crawl on it. In fact I would say 24" is much easier reach though if your armes are long you might get to 27" without to much of a strain. Get on your knees next your kitchen or dinning room table and see how far your arms will reach. I doubt you'll get more than halfway. Of course if your layout will be at waist height you can reach further but most layouts are built higher than that.

Irv

Where there's a will...

Irv, one thing I can truly say about my existing layout is, it's definitely capable of supporting the weight of a 300lb man (and no I don't weigh 300 lbs myself, LOL!)  Since it's an island layout, I used 2x6's for the legs and topped them with 3/4" thick plywood for extra stability.  But hopefully nobody will ever have to even crawl on the layout, much less walk on it.

I mentioned earlier about the step stools - maybe instead of that, I could put in a 10" high floor bench topped with non-slip tape, that would have the same effect as lowering the tabletop like you mentioned.  I'll do some experimentation tonight.  I don't think climbing up on something the height of a single stair step is terribly inconvenient for any healthy adult.  At least nowhere near as bad as crouching under a 50" high duckunder...

If you could put some strong handles on the ceiling,

then get a one or 2 step folding kitchen stool that would allow you to hang on to the handles as you stood on the stool to lean out over the layout.  You could then have the layout at an enjoyable viewing height, but be able to access the back in case of a derailment that is just out of reach.

A Pared-Down Alternative

Here's a refinement of the same benchwork footprint my local friend drew up for me - except for the additional 12"-wide shelf that snakes in front of the chimney and behind the standup freezer, to support 5 staging tracks.  With the shelf at 50" off the floor, it still leaves enough clearance for a 6'4" tall man to fit under it on the bottom stairs without ducking (and I'll put some foam rubber padding along the facing edge 'just in case' ).  In this version, the blobs are confined to diagonally opposite corners; this results in a much more wide-open aisle space around the door and the stairwell.  With the staging yard relocated to the west wall, I can bring the " class="bbc_img" rel="lightbox[1330957460]">

On the down side: I'd have to sacrifice my 'rural' single track main line.  All of my lineside industries (other than the steel mill) are scrunched into the bottom peninsula; the entire layout has a congested, urban atmosphere about it.  I'm still not sure what to use for hiding the return main line (blue track), perhaps a retainiing wall?

Due to the placement of the small industries and the sprawl of service trackage, I can't really erect a view blocker on the bottom leg.  This renders the all parts of the layout visible from any location you're standing in.

Height?

Ken, how high are you planning your track to be?

Charlie

Charlie:

...it's 50 inches off the floor.

I once mentioned during an op session, that I was thinking of raising it another foot so the duckunders would become "nod-unders".  They all said "NOOOO don't do that, this height is perfect!"  So much for that idea, LOL

If you have the vertical clearance,

could raise the layout height to 6 feet, put a 12 inch subfloor riser with a step down for the "nod under."