Bright boy?

...

... might need to clean it off of the loco wheels as well.  Not sure where you picked up that 'tip' ... but I can't help but think that perhaps you've found yourself on the wrong side of a joke.

PECO track rubber, clean all wheels too

Dear Scott,

Not that it's ever cut traction enough to be a problem on my layouts, but a PECO track rubber has removed any graphite coating very effectively for me. NB that cleaning the rails is not enough, if you really can't abide the traction issue, then make sure you simultaneously clean all loco and car wheels which may have run over the graphited rails. Just as you don't run equipment with dirty wheels over freshly-cleaned track, removing graphite requires a similar dilligence... (albeit with far less risk, force, or abrasive force required...)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

No joke, 20+ years successfull deployment and counting...

Dear Dave,

No joke on my part, graphite has kept my layouts running smooth and slow under extreme show conditions
(IE you can see the dust in the air), which have seen Rail-Zip and other "wet-treatment" layouts falling around me.

It's understood (and I've gone on record on this forum and elsewhere as noting) that if a loco is only just pulling the desired trains on clean/dry rail, adding graphite will make them slip. However,
- with a single HOn30 Class A Climax regularly pulling an actual 1/2 kilo (one pound) of loaded logging disconnects up 2% grades and round 12" radii curves on graphite,
- a single stock MDC HO 3-truck shay hauling 24-car-long MDC metal-framed plastic-wheeled "3-in-1" log trains on 22" radii 2% graded curves,
- and single B'mann Gas-Mech locos hauling 6x B'mann wood-sidetip "western scrapper" cars on a 6" radii "christmas tree"/"pizza" layout with similar treatment,

I just can't say that I've seen the kind of performance reduction noted by the OP.

Just my $0.05c, YMMV

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Well if *you* say so ...

... then I gotta believe you Prof!  Really I do!  

But, my experience with graphite has always been as a 'friction fighter'; i.e., wheels and axles on a Pinewood Derby car.  I don't think I'd ever convince myself to spread it on my rails as I could just imagine the loss of traction that would result.  Basically, the OP's experience would be the one I would expect from this application.

Perhaps OP's locos need more weight?

This post did get me to wondering ... could a person stop a real train on a steep grade by making the tracks slippery?  I suppose the sand would be more than enough compensation for any loss of traction.  

Rode a train in the 'high country' in Sri Lanka.  Rains make the rails very slippery and the train had to apply a lot of sand to keep moving ... was a very strange feeling as the car (we were the first car behind the locomotive) would jitter about as the wheels would slip and grab and we slowly made progress ...  

If graphite is lube...

Dear Dave,

Agreed, graphite dust is commonly used as dry lock/clock/safe-mech lube,
graphite + grease is used on 12"/1' scale trains to lube buffers and sliding draftgear surfaces,
and Kadee Greas'em is essentially graphite dust.

As such, we're in complete agreement that it's not only a conductive aid, but a known slippery material.

However, it should be noted that for track-treatment applications, I only apply it in a light "run down the rails" motion with a "woodless pencil" solid stick of 2B graphite.

I have heard some modellers advocate mixing graphite dust and a volatile liquid, such as metholated spirits, to form a paste, slathering said paste onto the rails, and then running trains over it to spread the mix around the layout. Having tried that some decades ago, it became rapidly obvious that this was overkill, with excessive slippage being one key symtom. Another was overheating and potential minor deformation of plastic frogs, as the caked-up low-resistance graphite allowed tracking electricity between the relatively-close frog rails.
(Not a "short circuit" per se, but a low-resistance "joint" that actually glowed if a high-throttle-setting voltage was drawn accross it).

After noting these issues (circa 25 years ago) I did actually scrub all of my PECO NS rails clear of graphite using a PECO track rubber, and pondered whether the obvious overapplication of graphite had an easy solution.

Despite appearing to resurrect and make-reliable 
- a fully-stock gold-side motored Ath sintered-iron-wheeled SW9,
- a pancake-motored Lima FP45,
(3 axles dummy on the front truck, A-1-A powered on the rear,
with only 2-points-of-pickup on either side of the loco! )
- and a B'mann 44 tonner with the NS plating worn off the brass wheels,
(Once the NS plating is gone, the underlying brass rapidly becomes virtually useless as a contact surface,
esp under the featherweight contact force of a 44 tonner )

the cost-benefit analysis at the time appeared dubious, as the OP seems to be experiencing.

The migration to the "woodless pencil" format/application evolved over a few years-worth of exhibitions, and was prompted in no-small-part by the ease of transport and ability to "carry in a shirt pocket for rapid spot-deployment while operating" over an 8-10 hour general-public op session. (Much tidier and user-friendly than loose graphite dust, and a sight easier to apply on-the-fly). While operation of a dual-gauge HO/HOn3 logging show layout more than put the technique thru it's paces, it was the ability to bring reliable smooth slow running to scratchbuild and HOn30 logging equipment on the same layout that really road-proved the validity of the technique for myself and fellow modellers hereabouts...

20 years and many layouts later, graphite is still a winning technique for my situations...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

So ...

... it is all in the technique of the application (a case where a 'little' is good; but a 'lot' is not).  Good to know and thanks for the insight.  Cheers.    Dave O

From what I am reading, it is

From what I am reading, it is obvious I went far to the over-application side.  I used a stick of 6H artists' graphite to REALLY coat the rails.  

I'll see if I can find a PECO track cleaner.  

I did try a Bright Boy and an alcohol-soaked piece of Masonite with no results.  

As part of this cleanup process, I have started cleaning loco wheels (five locos).  I haven't cleaned car wheels yet but I only have four cars on the layout now.  Small layout in On30 dictates short trains and fewer cars in the inventory. Thanks to all who responded.

Scott Groff

Graphite

Our club managed to start a 1:87 scale tie fire by applying powdered graphite around switch points to make the points throw smoothly.  The powder migrated into a gap, caused a short circuit, and set a wood tie to smoking. Interesting but not desirable.  Graphite sticks shouldn't cause that problem.

Acetone or brake cleaner

Why add graphite instead of just cleaning the rails?

If they are dirty and you add graphite what happens when the graphite gets more dirt on top of it? Sounds like a cure that's worse than the disease? ...DaveB

Graphite and other such

Graphite, clipper oil, NoOx, and countless other concoctions are modelers searching for the solution to stopping what mother nature will not allow them to stop - oxidation. So long as oxygen is in the air you breathe metal will oxidize. The #1 way industry protects metal is through passivation (the way NoOx works) however trains, both proto and model, have rolling wheels scrubbing along which does not bode well for passivation treatments. Add to that the need for excellent electrical conductivity for model trains and now passivation is even less of the ideal answer although admittedly the best shot so far.

The ultimate solution seems like it should be a super hard crystalline passivation treatment that conducts electricity well. Two years ago I spoke with a formulator at Henkel Corp. on this very subject. My thought was to do a little business adventure (again like NoOx) within the model train crowd. Solve their track oxidation problems while making a few bucks for myself. The show stopper was the answer from the formulator - ain't gonna happen. It seems passivation layers and electrical conductivity are diametrically opposed characteristics. One offsets the other = net result nothing. After all, metal corrosion is an electrochemical process.

The formulator said what modelers already know - use the metal rolling wheels to your advantage. Run trains more often so the wheels will wear off the oxide layer before it becomes problematic.

Dirt, on the other hand, is just dirt. Filth is not good for any mechanism.

A product that might help

Here at the plant I use spray Dry graphite alot...it will get on everything at times or after awhile...What we use to clean it up is a electrical spray contact cleaner....we use LPS No-Flash electro contact cleaner....not to mention  it makes motors run better   I use it in my electric R/C motors for cleaning brushes windings armatures...I use it when I clean up and tune up peoples Lionel engines...and I use it on my own HO and N scale engines...cleans gunk off wheels decently too...just dont spray it directly on it can have an effect ?  affect ?  ( sorry i get those confused still ) on some plastics also after using  you should relube your motors and gears and bearings...it works wonders on removing grease and oil too     hope it helps

Kevin 

Graphite Works

I have done some extended experimenting with Graphite and I can support the Prof's view. A thin layer applied using an artist graphite stick is effective at preventing the build up of gunk on the rails. I did one section of track on the mainline and it lasted about 1 year without any further cleaning of that section of track. The rest of the layout has had the track cleaned about 6 times over the same time period. It finally failed this week and I am in the process of cleaning all the track again.

I run short trains and my layout is flat, I haven't had any problems with loss of traction. Most of us have way too many and too big of locomotives for the length of trains that we run so having enough power at the head end is usually not a problem!

Brent

Calgary

Graphite application, show layout deployment...

Dear Dave B,

Who said the rails were dirty to start with? I'm actually in the final throes of getting a brand new show layout built and ready for it's debut, so the procedure is very clear in mind at this time:

- Complete all scenery and associated "wet water" + glue work around the trackage
(IE the processes inherrent in layout building which provoke and promote oxidisation and contact-surface degradation of NS rails)

- Thorough clean with PECO track rubber

- Vac up all rubber and associated shedded materials from the PECO cleaning

- Immediately apply 2B graphite to all rail contact surfaces
(I suspect, although have not performed the same level of investigation LK has, that this initial right-after-scrupulously-cleaning coverage of graphite forms at least a partial oxidisation-excluding barrier)

- Clean all wheels of all equipment intended for the layout in question.
This can be part of a general pre-show maintainence/tuneup of couplers/wheelsets/gauging etc.
(For show work, I have specific equipment rosters for each layout. Layout<> Layout crossover of equipment is almost unheard of)

- The resulting "qualified equipment" is then run on the layout in question, and the layout in question only.
(My equipment does not "visit other layouts". Nor is foreign and visitor equipment permitted to run on my show layouts. Guest equipment supplied by my regular operating crewmembers are accepted, as I know they are also running graphite, and are following a common procedure)

At this point, after quite a few "test runs",
(hey, I just spent X months building the layout and trains, I wanna get to "run some trains" for myself, before being thrown into the "gotta keep the trains moving" pressure of a general-public show environment!)

the layout and trains are known-proven running smooth and slow.
(Sidenote: for anyone who is contemplating "going live without a net" with their trains, modules, sections, or layout at a public show, the old sawby holds oh-so-true.
"Fail to prepare? Then prepare to fail")

From there, throughout the show, any sign of hesitation
(whether a "stumble" or "hitch in it's git-along" whilst in motion,
or hesitation to smoothly start from a complete stop)

is quickly dealt with via a quick swipe over the offending section of track with the in-the-pocket 2B graphite stick.

During the kind of "keep the trains running" ops common to a public show, I'd suspect that there is actually more train-movements per hour than on most home layouts. As such, the "trains running = airbourne dust held at bay" theory makes sense to me.

However, one critical difference in rail treatments is that graphite is dry, and thus does not present as an adhesive, attractant, or "sticky surface" to which airborne dust can bond and form a spark-inducing paste. This is particularly critical during a multi-day show,
(setup and associated airborne dust on Fri PM,
10 hours of ops Sat,
10 hours of ops Sun,
8 hours of ops on the Monday for "long weekend" shows)

where the dust from the polished-wood (basketball court?) or concrete floored hall is kicked up all day by the crowd, and can literally be seen hanging in the air after "doors close". 

It could be argued that, as I prefer fully-enclosed proscenium-type modules, I maybe have a natural covering for the layout trackage overnight. (I have used polyethelene dropsheets to cover "open top" layouts overnight previously).

However, virtually all of the "open top" and "plywood prarie-flat" layouts in the hall roster crew to be onsite up-to 2-hours ahead of "doors open" to re-clean (PECO track rubber style) and re-RailZip every skeric of rail to combat this "overnight rail contact killer".

Sidenote: Given that most such layouts are club layouts, and have to play host to allcomer's equipment which may or may-not have their wheels and cleanliness held to a common high standard, it's no wonder that such "wet, grot-softening and re-distributing" treated layouts quickly go from "slow and smooth" to "stuttering and DCC-dropouts" within the space of 30 mins?

In contrast, while I don't like cutting it this fine,
I can confidently walk into the show with as little as 5-mins before "doors open",
power up the layout (Lance M's "1 switch power-up" ahoy! ),
and know that everything will "just work" at the desired sub 10smph, first time, every time.

I'm not saying it's the one-fix solution for every modeller everywhere, but I never prep a show layout without it...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS the layout mentioned above will be making it's debut at the Aus7mm "ExpO" O scale show, March 1st.
http://aus7modellersgroup.org/Publication%2010th%20Anniversary.pdf

If anyone happens to be in or around Casula, NSW, Australia, you're more-than-welcome to see graphite in action...  

Graphite hardness

Dear Scott,

Interesting, the graphite hardness scale has "H" and "B" ranges,

with "H" being "hard",

and "B" being "soft"(?)

AFAIK, the larger the number, the "more" of tghe range characteristic the particular graphite is.

IE
- a 6H is harder than a 3H
- a 6B is softer than a 3B

http://pencils.com/hb-graphite-grading-scale/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencil#Grading_and_classification

Given this info, I would have expected that my go-to "2B" is softer in grade than your "6H", 
and being softer is prone to drop more graphite per "swipe" along the rail surface.

However, I tend to do "one or 2 long-runs" along the railhead, and that's-it.
If you forcibly "scrubed the rail" with a graphite stick,
I can see how it's very likely that the graphite layer would buildup, with predictable friction-reducing results.
(Of course, it would take a lot of "scrubbing" to achieve the caked-up application typical of dust+metho "paste application" technique!)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS Graphite is also used with on-loco flange friction-reducing systems on the prototype...

http://www.schunkgraphite.com/en/sgt/Wheel-flange-lubrication-systems/schunk01.c.53400.en

So as always it's a trade off

Relevance in context...

Dear Larry,

Honestly not sure I follow, (Maybe a terminology typo in that first sentence?),
but specifically for your performance testing plan/mission,
I would eliminate graphite or any other wheel/track treatment from the testing rigs/routes/layouts,

simply because you are seeking to test the locomotive, not the environmental variables.

As has been mentioned on the "Loco Performance Testing" thread, it's the raw "straight out of box, on the track, and go" performance capabilities which will be most-useful to the widest range of modellers. IIWY, I'd avoid skewing the results with environmental issues.

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

For the in home layout, is this still a good trade?

Unless your layout is in an exposed or dusty space or the loco has bad wheels or the equipment is over lubed and transferring crap to the track I see no need to put anything on rails. I wipe them down if I spill something or do dust causing construction but even then the trains don't have a problem running so it's just preventive maintenance. I haven't had a track conductivity problem attributable to oxidization since nickel silver track supplanted brass track decades ago. Keep it clean and running clean wheels over it as many scale miles as possible  is easier than putting stuff on it over and over again. Sorta like the SP snow fighting regime over Donner :> ) Graphite pencil lines on polished metal are likely not air tight so oxidization is  probably still gonna form under it if there is an oxidization problem?  so it's likely just adding another  layer to the problem. Clean track and clean wheels seem to be  the simplest most direct connection to strive for?  ....DaveB

Graphite just as effective at home...

Environment

Wet Leaves

Shoot, I rode a train in Western MD with a 2-8-0 on the point and a GP-30 helper...we got about halfway up the grade to Frostburg and the wet leaves were giving them fits. Every time the locomotives lost and regained traction we either slid back or got lurched forward in that battle. Some folks didn't enjoy it but for us whistledicks it was heaven...

Jeff

any connection between oxidation rates and air quality?

That's an interesting thought.  My train room gets dusty from working on models in there but it's a dry dust that wipes off leaving the rails free of oxidation( at least any visible oxidation) and the little N trains keep chugging away. When I had O scale in there the only time I had stalling problems was with locos equipped with sintered iron wheels that pit under load and build up wheel resistance. The O scale track did show more dirt due to the tendency of old O scale locos to throw off lube from their cruder drives. When I put new old stuff (bought used but new to the layout) on the layout it often left it's marks so I cleaned the track because of the grease not because of oxidation......DaveB

PS, in the old days of brass rail I had terrible oxidation problems on my childhood layouts.We lived right by the ocean and my rails looked like old boat hardware, the brass got dull with a green patina. Wish I'd know the draw on it with a pencil trick back then, I probably would have enjoyed the layouts a lot more if they had run more reliably. 

Oxidation is driven by moist air