Seems to be leap in the right direction ...

I am not surprised that the Europeans have grabbed this ball and are running with it; a lot of innovation on 'smaller' scales (i.e., amateur and hobby markets) comes from that side of the Atlantic.  One thing about the cab view ... will certainly motivate those who use it to complete their trackside scenery.  Looking like a very bright future is in store for the hobby.  

I,m with you Shoofly

Looks interesting but...

...you're operating your train by burying your nose in your electronic screen instead of watching your prized engine working within your hard-built scenery. The overlay of the control panel on the tablet screen consumed most of the display, blotting out most of the on-board camera feed. I'm not saying it's a bad system - it looks pretty cool. But first-person control certainly doesn't look like my personal bag. I'll probably stick with my analog helicopter view.

Besides, I don't even use a smart phone. And my middle-aged eyesight and fat fingers make just texting my kids an adventure. Can't imagine trying to control a train by swiping my finger across a little area of a little screen.

Sight down the boiler/hood...

Dear Messin,

It's worth noting that running most "boiler-forward" steam locos or hood unit locos long-hood forward severely restricts the forward vision of the engineer and fireman/conductor. When the track curves away from the engineers side, the field of vision looks as if the loco is pointing straight off the rails. At first, the screen overlay was a bit confronting, but as I focussed on trying to look out the "front cab window" ahead to where the train was going, the viewpoint (and restriction of not being able to "follow the track trajectory with my eyes" felt entirely appropriate.

My personal preferences as far as Human User Interface don't entirely match with the touchscreen ethos,
(as Chris notes, Human Interface is an entirely personal and individual ergonomic preference, just as one's personal setup of the driver's seat in one's car), but I can see the appeal of this tech approach....

I have to admit the bit that really grabs me is the implication that this is a PnP answer/equivalent to the "Rasberry Pi + Headless JMRI + JMRI/USB<> DCC system interface + WiFi" rig in a nice pretty "pay your $$$ and it just works" box. (read that again, slowly)

If the actual track signal is DCC, (IE no difference at the track-level, or as seen by the locos), then this represents an option for whom messing with the "Open Source" alternative was a technical bridge-too-far...  

Said another way,
If the homebruise "WiFi + Pi + JMRI + DCC" solution is the "scratchbuilt" version,
could Z21 be the "off the shelf RTR" version...???

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Helicopter vs Cab view

Messinwithtrains you bring up a good point but I think you can have it both ways. No reason you can't look up from your screen. But imagine watching for signals from the cab! Switching operations would be tricky though If you are paired off does your brakeman have a little flag he can wave down by the cars to tell you when you've gone far enough? Some aspects of model railroading really lend themselves to the "analog helicopter view". 

But the cab camera is something I'm really excited about. For a few years nows I've been planning in my head how to make functional a project that involves a warehouse pier that in HO scale is still several feet long. I had imagined a cab camera type of interface. It looks like by the time I figure out how to do the rest of the project and actually build it the technology will have caught up with my vision and be affordable over here.

According to the FAQ section their system can be run simultaneously with a LocoNet bus. So it seems that say for a club/modular layout you could add in your Z21 system to run your locomotive with the cab camera and computerized rendering of the cab on your ipad and not interfere with existing operators. 

I love my ipad and use it extensively but there is one problem. Touch screens need to be looked at! At the least I'd like an accessory dongle with a twist or slide knob for throttle and a button for brakes. You just in case of emergencies. (and yeah I'd like to see that even when using a smartphone or tablet with JMRI to interface with Digitrax. In the event of an emergency I don't want to have to look away from the impending doom to find the button on a touch screen. I want a big read easy stop button. 

Aside from that I'm looking forward to this technology.

Matt

Cab view?

As far as I know, there is no support for a cab view in the Z21.  Roco has sold camera cars in the past, but there are no locomotives equipped with cameras in their line.  I don't know why they showed a simulated cab view at the end there.  I'm sure it could be done, but they seem to imply more functionality than exists. 

Making it work with a steam locomotive would be particularly difficult; who would want a camera lens sticking out of the smoke box of their steam engine?

future feature

I've gone to the Roco website and read the latest on the Z21.  This engineer's view is mentioned as a future development of the system.  Presumably they will introduce appropriate cameras and equipment to make it possible to do this without having to tinker and engineer the hardware.

Dear Jurgen, Pin-hole

Dear Jurgen,

Pin-hole cameras may be do-able, but if we're finding it hard enough stuffing motors + gears + decoders (and possibly speakers) in locos, fitting a camera may be pushing it...
(and I see no mention of how the vision will be piped back to the system and thence to the handspiece. "Thru the Rails" sound and vision has been tried previously, with varying levels of success...)

http://www.choochoocam.com/

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS I see little of the "DCC VS wheel/rail contact issues" in these Euro digital control examples. Interesting...

just the facts

I'm not advocating the system.  I'm just reporting what they say on the Roco website so that people have factual information to base the discussion on.  Personally, I'm not a fan of the tablet or cell phone (or any touchscreen) controls; I want real buttons and tactile response. 

The camera in cab I find interesting, but agree installing them in some locomotives would be interesting or downright impossible.  I'm also not a fan of "gimmick" engines, so having one with a camera while the rest don't have one doesn't appeal to me.  The cost of equipping everything with this stuff would be daunting.

One also has to question what the cab view would look like on many layouts.  Seeing all the lights and crap above the layout, the woodwork in the tunnels and non-railroad stuff beyond the layout edge would detract from the effect.  Designing layouts to minimize these downsides would be a new art which has not yet been explored.

"Onboard" includes "backstage"

Dear Jurgen,

Yes, I've seen a few show layouts that used onboard wireless cameras (in EMD F-units IIRC),
broadcasting to a monitor mounted in the layout fascia for added crowd appeal. It did grab the punter's attention, but was noticably "jarring" visually when the train ducked into a tunnel at the end of the layout, then blasted out into "sunlight" thru what looked-like a massive classification yard with no ballast and plywood-colored earth...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS it'll be interesting to see how many modellers rue the day they said "no-one'll notice if I don't put tunnel linings inside the tunnel-mouth castings", when the onboard loco-cam rolls on thru...

PPS using a similar technology to the "loco position steers offboard sound" detection systems going round,
I wonder if we could get the vision feed to auto-"fade to black" as the loco disappears "into staging", and auto-"fade up to vision" when it emerges back onscene?

As a youth who likes trains...?

I asked a 19 year old rail buff friend of mine. Here was his response: 

"That would be amazing. It's like train simulator and model trains combined into one. How fun is that?"

Looks like it might get the "youth vote".

Matt

Thanks Prof ...

Ha, ha, ha!  Too funny, that really did tickle my funny bone!  

feedback

That's something I'm interested in as well.  Our club layout has tracks literally where no tracks have any business being, and sound from inside a wall or behind a valance above a scene from a train that's supposed to be many miles away could be peculiar.  Using the same stuff to control cameras on hidden track could be useful.

You might also use that to make the computer take over once you approach staging to avoid having to watch the train arrive in your plywood parking lot.

DCC Throttles

  I am always impressed with the new 'tech toys'.  The user interface is something rather personal.  Myself, I am the 'helicopter' type of person - I like the 'railfan' view of my train going through the scenery.  There is nothing 'wrong' with the engineer's view of the track ahead, but it is not my preference.  I think the European push for 'gadget' throttles may be based on the way they run their model trains - A lot of just running them on a schedule and not a lot of switching/helper operation.

  In the US, we tend to go for 'walk-around' operation with setting out/picking up freight cars(more freight train orientation).  To that end, DCC throttles here come in two basic types:

Super Throttles like the NCE Hammerhead or Digitrax DT4xx series throttles that can do everything, but are sort of clumsy to handle when you are switching with a packet of car cards.

Utility Throttles like the Digitrax UT4 or NCE Cab0x series that have a 'knob' on them and are small enough for single hand operation.  I have operated on one layout owner's operating session(Digitrax system) and he does not allow DT400 series throttles in the hands of operators.  He builds the consist on a DT400, then does a 'steal' with a UT4R and hands the UT4R/car packet to the operator.  His reasoning is that if an operator presses the wrong button on a Super Throttle, it may affect another train or the layout operation.  The operator has no need to 'consist' and just requires a throttle with a small easy to handle form factor.

  Some of the early cell phone 'throttles' suffered from the graphical interface/speed control.  The current batch that use a side mounted 'ringer volume' for the actual speed control are much better for use as a throttle.  My Samsung Galaxy 'smart phone' makes a pretty decent throttle.    Running trains with it does eat into the battery charge however!

Jim

Just how are you supposed to touch a touch screen?

Maybe I'm too ham-handed but I have never met a touch screen that likes me much.  I touch, it ignores...  Or, I touch, it goes overboard...  I can't say I'd trust the level of tech in any device I've tried so unless some of the newer devices are much sharper at what they detect (more finesse please) I'd rather stick to buttons and knobs.  Just sayin...

Just goes to show

That the technology is out there to do so much more than what we've got now.  

Using a touch screen requires

Using a touch screen requires a little skill. Some people pick it up quickly, others do not. It's just like soldering. It takes a little practice to become any good at it. I do think it is something that will be embraced by the younger and future model railroaders. Heck, some kids can probably parallel  park their car while texting...

But many of us old folks prefer the good old fashioned throttle with a knob to turn for controlling trains.

Randy

gadgets

Parallel park??  They press a button to do that now.  And they got there by following the GPS, no clue what roads they took.  Of course, that's only if they didn't cell phone their way into the ditch on the way over there...

"never met a touch screen that likes me much"

   some are better than others. My wife's ipad screen works ok but I wouldn't want to run trains with it. About the only thing I use it for is checking email because it is always handy and on...DaveB

What is particularly interesting to me...

I know of quite a few large layouts in Southern California that weren't designed for walk around control. The layout are controlled with distributed outposts where the operators would crawl to the location and pop out like a mole. This made DCC installation not much more then a system to control lights and sound as the operator had to hand off train control to the next outpost to run. The result, not many of these clubs elected to move forward with any digital control remaining analog, or isolating digital control to a branchline.

A system such as this would give much value to the digital system being able to have the stationary operator follow their train while sitting in the cab. The outpost locations would then become like "control towers" affecting signals and handling switches for train movement. Clubs like the Sierra Pacific Lines which have stationary operators and DC cabs could actually implement now a Digital System. http://www.pmrrc.org/

I think it gives a viable and exciting method of digital train control for the clubs and individuals that do not have a walk around layout.

BTW, I'm still interested in Ring and will be trying it out on a modular layout. Modular layouts tend to push control systems to their limits

Chris Palomarez

Prof, seems to be exactly as you stated...

It does indeed to be an all in one system that cuts down on the Frankenstein approach of adding bits and pieces then cursing them that they don't work without a lot of fussing.

I have noticed that control systems over the decades have had a direct relationship to the design and operation of the layout. Layouts that were the norm in the 50s-70s tended to have stationary operator locations either distributed or confined to one location overlooking the entire layout. As carrier control came about layouts started to become Walk Around, as DCC came around almost all new layout construction seems to be walk around with multiple decks. I wonder what a control system like this would have on future layout design?

Me personally I could do without the superimposed cab on the live camera view. From what I gather that is an option. The straight camera cab ride view has great appeal to me personally. I think that view and a RailDriver control console http://www.raildriver.com/would be just a completely new way to enjoy running trains. Of course switch to helicopter view whenever the feeling comes over as the system allows for both

Chris

For those who missed the National Rrain Show

Fleischmann - Roco had the Z21 systems setup and running at the show. The z21 for beginners is a basic WiFi DCC system without additional interfaces such as LocoNet. The Z21 version for experts includes the DCC controller with all of the interfaces and the WiFi router. The onboard camera system was being demonstrated and is supported by the current revisions of the system software and smartphone / tablet apps. The video was generally of adequate quality, but there were dropouts from interference / collisions with other WiFi devices in the hall. 

I spent quite some time playing with the system and watching others operating the system. I was impressed enough to commit the $$$ to purchase a Z21, BUT:

The hardware is well engineered and built, but there is little to no current support in the US. Luckily I do not have a problem dealing directly with Austria.

As I have mentioned before there are still substantial human interface problems presented by the use of a touch interface especially the lack of tactile sense and feedback.

When this product was announced I was hoping that Roco would adapt the NMRANet / OpenLCB communications standards, but they did not. Their implementation is similar, but in line with the Open spirit they have released the specification for the protocol. Now if they would release the software source for the stack, it would be fantastic.

Z21 LAN Protokoll Spezifikation

Prof Klyzlr

My "Rasberry Pi + Headless JMRI + JMRI/USB<> DCC system interface + WiFi" rig is functional, and the system with Linux, JVM and JMRI Has been installed on a SD card. The only issue is the lack of Access Point drivers for any of the little USB WiFi dongles for the RaspBerry PI. This leaves us with purchasing an Access Point for> $100 or connecting through a local WiFi network. There are several developers in the Model Railroad community working on developing the necessary drivers, but they also have real jobs. If we can get this going the total cost for the system will be about $60 minus the USB to DCC interface.

On the Widows side where the necessary drivers are available, a new headless system built on one of the mini or micro systems can be assembled for under $250 which is still half the price of the Z21.

new idea

I looked at my I phone 5 and it has 2 cameras in a very small package with a phone and a whole lot more. The lens looks like it is about the size of an HO scale headlight.The electronics could likely be added to a sound decoder with out adding a bunch more bulk and we could have sound and video from our locos. I started in the time of dc and then saw dcc and other systems come into play. The camera feature would be nice just to make videos of your layout. An I pad should provide a very nice control venue and it could also be added to a docking device complete with dedicated knobs for those of you that don't like touch screens. An other possibility would be the advent of a throttle with a view screen and dedicated button and knob controls for those of us that are old school.

Ideas like this often evolve into something we like after we try them. I was that way with DCC. Prior to trying it, it just seemed like to much trouble for what it was worth. I have since changed my mind.

Rob

Implications for Future Layout Designs?

Since the Z21 is a DCC system this system is evolutionary not revolutionary (Their words), and its introduction will have little impact on layout designs. (Though I am painting the inside of my tunnels gray for the camera.) If you want to control accessories (eg. turnouts, signals) you will still have to wire them. The video is sent from the camera by WiFi, but all other feedback from engines is via RailCom© or Transponding in Digitrax terms [See NMRA S-9.3.2 DCC Basic Decoder Transmission (S-9.3.2 pdf)]. The decoder transmissions are sent over the rails and received by circuits in boosters / command stations or other power distribution wiring.