Batteries

Please clarify for me... What change is needed for this? Can you not simply put batteries in place and use the Ring decoder as is?

RE: Batteries

Yes, yes you can!  What I was referring to was the manufacturer using that as a selling point, providing 'how-tos', and lists of batteries/chargers, etc.  Truly embracing the Dead Rails concept and showing how 'easy' it can be with their product. 

That's all I ment

Charging Circuit

Sure that's all good, but I think if the RP LM included a charging circuit, that would qualify as "embrace."

That's a grand idea Bill.

That's a grand idea Bill.  Charging LiPos requires some specific consideration, and multi-celled LiPos are even more of a PITA, but I do believe you're on to something.

Square waves be gone

One of Rail Pros stated benefits is continuous steady DC on the rails. Certainly I am no electrical engineer but I tend to believe in this. Many people report much less need for clean shiny track issues with DC than DCC. Tends to make one think there is some truth in there somewhere. Battery embrace would further show their support of reducing rail arcing if in fact the signal voltage fluctuation is part of the equation. Now, the jury is still out on whether square waves on rail matters or not with respect to arcing but it is a feature/benefit claim that conventional DCC manufacturers cannot make. 

DC Vs. DCC Rail arcing

In one of my conversations with Tim from RailPro, he stated that using DCC as a power source, they had many more issues with having to clean rails than running on straight DC from their power supplies, so from his testing, straight DC is far more reliable for keeping the track clean, whatever the reason.

Also, let's be clear - the Bus Factor is crucial for sure, but I don't think too much different than any of the DCC manufacturers out there.  If you are heavily invested with Digitrax or NCE, they are still smaller companies that would have their own Bus Factor.  While you are still left with DCC compatible components, your upgrade path is gone there, too.

I think Ring would be wise to develop something that "talks" to DCC that could be used to link and control DCC locomotives in order to pry some DCC users away, but I'd rather they spend their time improving their sound library and increasing functionality, etc., before going down that road.

Alan.  Certainly I am no

Alan.

Not true. With DC and dirty track the locomotive coasts through the dead spots. With DCC the onboard electronics will not allow the loco to coast through. This happening with sound decoders is especially frustrating when the sound drops out and restarts. Keep alive caps can help a great deal. Dead spots and shorts are the same in DCC as they are in DC. One of our club members has stated that the tracks get dirtier on DCC than DC is because we have a whole lot more trains running over them. When we were running DC there were a lot fewer trains during an op session. There is no longer a need to hold an open block between two trains and two trains can be operated in the same block at reduced speeds. We had gone from forty to fifty trains an op session to over seventy and more. Now we can have 2 or more switchers working the yard instead of blocking one then the other.

Pete

Interesting

This is a very interesting statement. It is generally believed running more trains or trains more often keeps the rails cleaner. Your club member's observation is contrary to this. Are plastic wheels in use on your club layout? That might explain it. Otherwise, metal wheels should be cleaning the track of oxidation rather than adding to it.

I am also curious about the "coasting" aspect you mention. I understand sound dropout but I don't understand how DCC changes the coast of a loco during periods of no power. Wouldn't that be determined by the inertia of the drivetrain? Does back EMF in the decoder come into play?

"much less need for clean shiny track issues with DC than DCC"

    No, that is not supported by practice. Just about any loco I've had experience with runs better on DCC than it did on DC. The higher voltage makes clean track less necessary. These guys that tell you DC is more reliable just are nostalgic and forget the bad things about it. They forget all the toggles they had to throw to move a train around the room, they forget the maze of wiring it took. Guys were pushing locos to get them moving in DC days just as much or more than we are in DCC days. Same as old cars they look great in the rear view mirror of memory lane but a '51 chevy needed a valve job before a honda accord gets broken in( and don't even think about how many ford flatheads had cracked valve seats) ......DaveBranum

...

That black oxidation on the rails is part of the reason we use Nickel Silver track, it's conductive.  However, that same black oxidation interferes with Digital signals.

I've already seen the results for myself in person....there's further a layout in Town where the owner has not cleaned his track in fifteen years and he's even running some locomotives with brass wheels [gasp, those things HATE DCC!]

You put the DC track power up at the height where it is for DCC, and the let the decoder do the digital management without having to go through the track to decoder interface, it's really as simple as that...

Great News

A few things

I have installed both LM-1's and LM-2S's in my locos.  The LM-1's are a tough install in smaller hood units because of the length.  It can be done, but takes some thought and little work.  The width of 0.68-0.69" is fine and will fit up inside a hood unit perfectly (Athearn, Atlas, Kato, BLI), however I admit I have not tried to install the new LM-2 into a switcher yet.  The LM-2S is remarkably small especially given what it can do.  It has twice the storage capacity of the first generation module, sound, wireless radio, 6 outputs, and 2 inputs.

The two inputs are an interesting addition and can be used for anything really.  I know that Tim plans on using them to time the steam chuffs as you mentioned Chris.  Other uses are yet to be seen, but I wouldn't rule out a battery meter.  That certainly would be nice, especially if batteries became small and safe enough to put inside small hood units.  I, at the moment at least, am not entirely convinced with battery power.  Although the concept is good, I have a hard time imagining how I will fit batteries into smaller hood units.

The new controller changes are as follows: twice the storage memory, faster processor, reduced battery charge time (3 hours compared to 6.5), and $100 less MSRP.  Places like Yankee Dabbler sell at a discount, the actual price of the controller is less.

The power supplies (both PWR-75 and PWR-56) supply a constant, regulated 14.2V DC current.  The larger power supply (PWR-75) has 75 watts of power, 8.3 amps, and an auto-reverser.  The smaller PWR-56 has 56 watts of power, about 4 amps, does not include an auto-reverser, and needs to be plugged into a power strip (no on/off switch).  Both power supplies are controlled via direct radio from the controller, and both act as direct radio repeaters.

I would not rule out that Ring may eventually create a bridge to DCC, but I'm sure that's not high on their list.  I'm sure they would much rather get their basic line-up of products developed and available, then perhaps branch off into add-on products.  These latest releases show Ring's dedication to continually improve and support their products.  In addition, they are constantly releasing software updates to add features, improve functions, etc.  

-Kevin

Going to start another thread about dirty track.

  Guys.

 Politeness dictates we start another thread about DC vs DCC and dirty track.

       I don't like to hijack threads.

           Pete.

"am not entirely convinced with battery power"

  I'm not either because I don't like to be dependent on a charged battery to operate a device, I want to be able to just walk in and throw a switch on the controller and go, without planning ahead to have it charged. I've found my cordless drills are always losing their power or needing battery replacements while my old corded models are there waiting to serve.. I would be interested in better "keep alive" circuits however, maybe including a small compact battery that would allow locos to run a short distance over switchwork and any complicated to wire areas. That would be the best of both worlds in my opinion, but I don't really see why I'd need Ring to do that? Seems like a DCC system could be engineered with adequate "keep alive" at lower cost using more readily available DCC controllers? .....DaveBranum

worst controller ever operated with

It is hard to handle, dose not fit hand, is heavy, touch or brush screen you have lost control of your engine. No place for safty strap. Try and handel car cars and controller you can't.

Ho did i mention the whole system is very expensive. 

Worst Controller

I have ever operated with was a POS plastic Bachmann with the little flip up crank throttle thingy.

Worst controller

mine was an MRC that was stuck on full throttle, as soon as you switched it on the loco peeled out in forward or reverse depending on where the direction switch was set and didn't stop till it derailed or hit another train..DaveBranum

RailPro video

If you haven't already seen this, here is a good video demonstrating RailPro.

Nice, but

first they must drop the „patent pending” label on their products.

Than I will consider those.

Worst controller

Expensive?

Hmm, let's call a spade a spade.  Here are the comparisons between Digitrax, NCE and Ring on the least expensive Radio systems (you can't compare a Zephyr to Ring, they are apples and oranges):

Digitrax - SEBXD Super Empire Builder Xtra Duplex Radio Equipped - MSRP $575.00

NCE - PH-ProR Radio Equipped - MSRP - $699.95

RailPro - HC-2 Handheld (MSRP - $299.99), PWR-56 Power Supply (MSRP - $119.99), Total $429.98

Sorry, I can buy you don't like the controller, but please don't lead people astray suggesting that it is so expensive, when equivalent DCC starter systems are much more.

Cost and controller

I know Art isn't a fan of how the controller fits in his hands, but as Chris stated, it's all a personal preference.  I have used it enough that I can run, reverse, use the horn etc, without looking at the throttle and can do it one-handed.  I can use the throttle with one hand and simultaneously use an uncoupling tool with no issues.  Touching the screen in the wrong place is the same as if you were to do it on a smart phone or tablet.  If you can't control where your fingers go, then the screen will obviously take you somewhere you weren't intending.  If you can use a cell phone, you can use this.

Cost is comparable to other DCC systems.  For example, the NCE's radio control package, the PH-Pro R, is listed at $700 ( http://www.ncedcc.com/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=13&category_id=3).  This is not including any sound decoders (about another $80-90 a piece for Tsunami).  A starter set of Railpro at full MSRP would be ~$620, for controller, power supply, and two sound locomotive modules.  Both the NCE and Railpro products are obviously available elsewhere at lower prices.  Once the new Railpro products are available at places like Yankee Dabbler, this same setup would cost closer to $450 (this includes two sound modules).  Yes, it's an investment, but it's not as expensive as people make it out to be.

-Kevin

Let's be clear, too, Kevin

I didn't include the cost of the Loco Modules because the sound ones are equivalent to decoder costs, so if you are starting out (the point of a "starter system"), you need to buy decoders for the DCC systems anyway.

Cost Would Only Be an Issue

...for those who already have a sizeable investment in DCC. For anyone just starting out, or for those who have DCC but would like to have the benefits of direct radio, the cost is less than or equal to comparable DCC equipment. I have mentioned previously that I use RP, both at home, with their power supply, and at the club with Digitrax. At home I rarely have to clean the track, even with four trains running simultaneously. Most of my rolling stock has plastic wheels, mainly because I don't want the expense of changing everything over, and partly because I don't like the way a derailment with metal wheels can shut down the entire system. When I bring a locomotive home from the club I have to clean the wheels before running it on my layout. The point is, I find that DCC track at the club requires much more frequent cleaning.

I also have no problem holding the controller with one hand. From time to time you have to glance at the screen when using functions. That is no different than any other controller. I've been using the new HC-2 for about 3 months and absolutely love it. I have several engines awaiting the new LM-2s modules as they become more widely available.

RP is ready now for battery power, but I think battery power is not quite ready for trains. In the future, I can foresee several battery cars being charged on a charging track, and one behind each locomotive. Then we won't have to think about dirty track.

Finally, let me put in another plug for Ring Engineering's customer service, which is quite possibly the best I've experienced.