Interesting timing

Very interesting, Chris.  I've been doing more research into the area I want to model (Calgary - Revelstoke corridor), and I'm finding that the most interesting time to model is the transition.  I'm sure that's not a surprise to most people, but it was a bit to me, as I really had no interest in transition because I never saw it.  I like steamers and railfannig steam, but not much interest in modeling it.  Until I started doing more research, and listening to my father talk about his memories of the area when he was a kid.  Now, I'm really thinking of going to that era, but I have the same issue as you.

So, without hijacking the thread further, I'm definitely going to stick with N and I'll have to start out with pretty well all diesels anyway, but I have one Kato N Scale steamer, and it runs silky smooth.  However, its a japanese prototype (my wife wanted it when we went to a train show about 15 years ago because it was "cute") so it doesn't fit my area.  I'm curious to hear from others about this as well.  I know steamers are an issue in availability for N, but I would hope the quality is as good now as the diesels. 

Ignorance is Bliss

Fortunately I do not know enough about steam to be able to notice detail problems.. if it has the right number of wheels and the right logo on the side it looks good to me. I am sure that will change..

Chris

N Scale Steam - You Be The Judge

Chris, does this help? Sound equipped and everything.

Spectrum 2-8-0:

P2K NKP Berk:

Model Power 4-4-0 (not quite as smooth as the above although I think some of it's the operator) :

With a little work, you could probably make the Spectrum 2-8-0 look like a B&M K-8. The Model Power 2-6-0 & 4-4-0 use the same boiler and it looks like the 2-6-0 is based on an NYC prototype. However, you can get them with the arch roof cab that would be appropriate for a B&M B-15. The 4-4-0 also resembles one of the later B&M 4-4-0's. All three would be appropriate for a 1926 era B&M layout. IIRC, the B&M P-2 variant 4-6-2's were a bit smaller than the USRA lights, but the MP 4-6-2 could probably make a good stand in.

My wife, who really likes N scale, convinced me to try N after a 25 year absence. I did have an N scale flush door layout in the early 80's but the quality of a lot of the equipment left a lot to be desired (Atlas 4-6-2 had two speeds: stop and high subsonic). That no longer seems to be the case. I bought a Spectrum N scale 2-8-0 earlier this year and am in the process of making it look more Southern Pacific like. It runs superbly (or at least it did before I started working on it). There's not much in the way of steam detail parts available for N, unlike HO, so you either have to make your own or leave it off.  When I get a little farther along (SP style train indicators, blowdown spreaders, etc), I'll post some pictures. Somehow, I lost the whistle since I needed to move it from the steam done, so I had to make something that resembled a whistle.

You may have to register at Trainboard to see the photos linked below, I don't recall. I'm a member so it's not an issue for me.

You also might want to check out Russell Straw's work for some inspiration (including several loco bashes): http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/585 The T&NO GS-1 in this picture: http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/81281 was done using a Con-Cor GN S-2 as a starting point.

There's a fellow that's also scratchbuilt a B&O S-1 in N scale. The photos of that as well as more of his work can be seen here: http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/member.php?uid=4676&protype=1

Hope this helps.

Mike

I'm not saying

I'm not saying go HO, but I have noticed you mention this a fair amount  - and seem to always come back that the summary execution your local group would punish you with as a big reason not to (not the only one, I know).

Chris, IF going HO would make you happier at home, than go HO. I don't see why you can't still run with the N-folks, especially as you already have equipment and experience in the scale. If they are that  closed minded, well, that kind of speaks for itself.

I would hazard to suggest that as you haven't built the big layout yet, now would be the time to take a real objective look at the choice of scale.

As I've said before, I would much rather prefer the size of N from a layout standpoint, but from a modeling standpoint, it just too small (for me).

So I'm not saying switch scales, but if you're the slightest  bit interested, now might be the time to consider a move.

Steam is why I went back to HO scale

I really enjoy the steam era.  I was planning to build a N scale railroad based on a small Milwaukee Road yard, circa 1948.  What killed my enthusiasm for the project was my realization that I would not be able to get a decent 0-6-0 in N scale, plus the expense in time and money to build a large enough fleet of steam era freight cars.   Now I'm back to HO.

When I still had them, I was very happy with my Kato 2-8-2s.  My MP 4-6-2s were pretty decent too, though they started a little fast for my taste.  As I mentioned though, I think the real challenge for N scale steam operation is finding a decent switcher.  If your prototype used 2-8-0s, 0-8-0s or even went to diesel early for switching, I think an operations oriented N scale layout is more viable.

HO

Putting aside the peer pressure issue..

HO offers:

An interesting range of track and coupler products I would like to try

• I would really like to use sergent couplers. I love the idea of how they work and the appearance is great.
• I really want to be able to spike rail to wood tie to keep cost down and provide an enjoyable track laying pass time. I would also like to try out the range of track products CVT offers.
• I would like to be able to lay scale sized rail.. code 70 and code 55.. for an older theme layout.

Sound

• Sound possible in far more diesel applications
• Steam chuff synched up
• Factory installed sound on more models

Better quality turn of the century Steam

• Road specific details
• More reliable mechanisms
• Size allows enjoyment of mechanism action
• Models exist for earlier time periods

HO problems (for me)

Lack of run in my space

• Even reducing the number of scenes the scale distance between locations will be very small creating that "never really going anywhere" feeling.
• Train lengths must be smaller and start to look less and less realistic, even in an earlier time periiod.

excessive compression in my space

• Buildingings and scenic feature have to be made smaller which can often lead to tiny industries that couldnt load a boxcar in a year being spotted on a regular basis
• Small buildings tend to give whimsical look which, while I admire artistically, I have no interest in myself..
• Yards tend to lose distinctive character of their prototype when compressed into smaller space. For instance, the distinctive spacing and long curves of St Johnsbury, Vermont or the interesting ladder arrangements in Burnswick, Maine.

Radius turnback size an issue in my space

• N scale has a key "feature" which I feel makes using larger scale plans foolish.. that you can turn around with a broad radius curve within reach in distance. That is.. a peninsula that has 2' on either side allows a turn-back radius of 21" with easements, massive in N scale. HO and larger scales require blobs and/or turnbacks that are under-sized.
• Turnback radius has a direct impact on aisle arrangement for which the smallest width of the room becomes critical. In my case, the 13 foot width of the room would cause some pinching to occur in HO without going to a less desirable (for my space) around the walls option.

One of the things I really have to grapple with is what kind of operating session is a given for me. In my space I can make an enjoyable layout for a couple of people in HO. If I try to do something that can involve, say, 5-6 people then I am going to have some comprimises. While I enjoy them, I do not want the heavily compressed layouts that I have operated on where there is no real mainline run and most of the operating time is spent because the switching is so damned hard. 

There is also an economic issue. I have a lot of N scale stuff and can share resources with friends. HO I have to start from scratch.

Really, what I want, is a 25x40 space to build HO.. I already told my wife thats what I want for the next house.

Chris

I figured

I figured you had run the numbers.

If the latter point is an achievable goal, isn't continuing N scale now actually less economic?  Wouldn't it be cheaper to begin accruing the large scale equipment now?

An ongoing argument in my brain

Scarpia, I have this conversation with myself regularly, but Chris' Do's and Don'ts are pretty accurate for me.  Its a space issue matched with what I would like and unless I come into some unforeseen large sum of money, we are here to stay.   In the space I have, I just can't make enough work in HO to satisfy me.  The biggest compromise in N is the availability of equipment for my era.  Lots of locos available for modern era, but not so much for the earlier time.  I think, though, that I will get enough equipment to run the layout, I just have to be patient and jump when something is made available.  Ultimately, if I switched to HO, I would buy all kinds of equipment, but I believe I would not be satisfied with the layout I would build and it would all collect dust in due time.  That is why I stay in N.  But I guess this is about Chris, not me.  

25x40

That 25x40 space is at least 10 years out.. if we move.. its a chicken whose egg has not been layed never mind hatched..

There is a chance that when we build a garage we will also expand the basement under it for another 16x20 space onto what I have, but I am not counting that chicken now either.

Chris

I guess this is about Chris,

Its about anyone struggling with the same kind of N vs HO scale choices...

I know I can keep a number of people busy in my space with HO.. but it would have to be some kind of switching layout and I want some open scenery..

Chris

Comprimise

It seems that no matter what we do, we have to make significant comprises in this hobby. The decision on scale is clearly a major one.

I could easily do exactly what I want, with few compromises, in N scale for my proposed space. I thought about it long and hard when I first got into the hobby, especially as a local friend was tinkering with a N scale layout at the same time . Trying to fit in what I want in HO, as you may know, is making the design a lot more challenging and frustrating.

I take long looks at the N scale modules at train shows, and envy what's possible with those smaller trains.

But do I regret choosing HO? Nope. Not for one moment. I know I'll have to make significant compromises on my layout, but I'm pretty confident in the end I can come up with something that will work well and make my hobby time enjoyable. And in the meantime, even with what is nothing more than a small switching layout, I'm having a blast.

If you are still having the scale question, one has to wonder if it that was actually the right choice? I don't think anyone can make that decision for you  - other than a very large inheritance!

Scale choice

Here are some other thoughts...

Many N scale trains just don't start smoothly.  Maintenance can be devastatingly critical when it comes to clean track.

Couplers in N scale make the accordian/inchworm effect noticeable, especially if the loco is at all hesitant.  I see both of these all the time at shows. 

N scale still has that slotcar racer feel about it.  It's hard to find a smooth and slow running loco, at least at the shows.  I walked alongside one train on a modular setup and could BARELY keep up with it.  Figure a marching walk is 3mph which is slower than I was moving, x160 for scale and this thing was putting the TGV to shame.  This was larger steamer too.  Looked nice pulling all those cars, but silly.  It's not really a point against the scale itself since it's your layout and you can obviously deal with that, but it does point to the way the locos are designed and built.  Sane scale speeds may not be readily possible for what you want to run.

Eyesight and such begins to factor in.  What may be fine now may not be so great in a few years when you struggle to see what your doing or require a small sun over your shoulder to see the details.  It's already a factor with my wife who just wants to WATCH the trains, but not necessarily be involved.  N scale would be pointless for her.  As it is, HO may be pointless for her in a few years, but she can at least see the some of the details now.

Sound may or may not be a factor.  Given what can be put in N scale you may automatically get scale sound simply because you can't get the volume you would in a larger scale.  This is probably a plus for a room full of N engines since you won't be able to blast yourself out of the room even if you wanted to.  All bets are off if you install speakers under the layout though.

Kids/grandkids are often less than gentle, but with the general lack of details in N scale this might actually be a point in favor of N vs. HO.  OTOH, it's probably less likely that the HO locomotive will end up on the floor with the other toy cars playing smashemup, at least not without you noticing. 

Effects.  Lighting is getting better all the time.  I've got a nice B23-7 for Conrail that has independant lighting of front/rear red markers, and # boards.  This isn't to say you couldn't do this in N scale.  I'm sure you could, but it would be much harder to do.  I like having all the extra lighting options and I'd be struggling to do what I have done in the past in N scale.  OTOH, I've heard of someone who used a plc and managed to do a rotary beacon in N scale using 6 SMT LEDs.  Kudos to him, but it's just not something I'd have the ability to do. 

The biggest one I'm struggling with is eyesight and dexterity.  I was at the nationals this year and at the NCE booth I watched some of the late teens help try and deal with an N scale loco.  It took forever for them to get it on the tracks and then we all discovered the wheelset was damaged and whatnot.  Just figuring all that out too forever since no one could actually see what was going on.  That pretty much staked any consideration of smaller scales right then and there, not that those thoughts were common but still.  I don't want to think about whether or not I can do this when I hit my 40s, let alone a couple decades past that.  My wife already has a hand tremor so many times she can't help me put anything on the track or move stuff around easily.  It's also another reason I've canned the idea of putting in ground throws.  Stuff like that will be fascia mounted.  I'm still going with Sergent couplers though.  For me N scale would just be a waste of time/effort/money.  YMMV.

-

S

Interesting points

Shoggoth, your point about eyesight and failing dexterity is certainly one I've considered, but I know a number of people much older than me that still do amazing work in N.  I knew one guy in his late 70s who still did amazing stuff in Z!!  Since I haven't had trouble with my eyesight up until now, I'm going to hope that continues for many more years.  One day I may switch to HO (or O or G) if it becomes a problem, but for now, I'm happy in N.

As for the loco issues, I think this is a legacy problem more than anything.  I've got 3 Atlas locos - 1 about 20-25 years old, the other two about 3, and 2 Kato locos - 1 newer, 1 pushing 20 years old.  The three new locos run as well as anything I've had in HO, and the older Kato does as well.  The older Atlas is terrible, but I got it for $20 as a toy for my kids, basically.

As for treatment by kids/grandkids, well, my kids have always treated my stuff well.  I gave them the rules for the train room and they have followed and I know they'd make sure their friends followed them, too.  Grandkids are a long ways off, so I can't say about that, but I will be more than willing to take them in there and let them know the rules, too.  Part of the fun is involving the kids (and wife if possible) in the hobby.

As Scarpia said, there are compromises in every scale, and I've been satisfied with my decision to go to N scale.  I've still got HO equipment and will probably run it on a club layout one day, but N is my home layout for the foreseeable future.

It's amazing that we N scalers manage at all!

It's always puzzling to me to see the HO scale folks line up to tell us how misguided was our choice of N scale. Chris seems content with his choice of N scale and willing to deal with the trade-offs. He's actually building something and has first-hand experience with the pluses and minuses of the scale.

Despite the urban legends, N scale engines run smoothly and the MT couplers work well for hand or magnetic uncoupling.  I'm not building a layout for my Grandkids, but if I were, I personally wouldn't choose HO or N scale.

For an interesting comparison, one can go back to early model magazines and see how the O scalers disparaged HO in its early days. Many of the arguments are the same.

Since I work in a variety of scales for clients, i have a pretty good feel for the strengths and weakness of each. But I don't find it necessary to criticize anyone else's choice of scales.

I don't recall

Bryon,

I don't recall (and it wasn't my intent) on calling Chris misguided for going with N scale

To reiterate, Chris has mentioned in other posts how there are some things in HO that he prefers; with his layout plan not working in his space, my suggestion was that were he to make a change, perhaps now would be a good time.

I'll have to go back and make sure my posts were clear. 

N scale issues

All the N scale diesel locos I have operated with recently have been very smooth.  I don't have much experience with steam. Hence this post.

I actually prefer N scale couplers, they work great. The slack action in couplers I consider a desirable quality in any scale. It creates operating interest. Poor locomotives will obviously create the undesirable inchworm effect in any scale.

Recent releases of N scale locos have great lights. The only thing that I miss is ditch lighting. Of course, modeling the 70s or earlier, thats not an issue.

Sound is problematic. I don't buy into the "scale sound" argument at all.. but thats a discussion for another thread.

An individuals ability to work with "small" is, obviously, up to the individual. I am not a detail guy. More of a broad sweep of the brush guy. Obviously if your first love is super detailed locmotives and rolling stock, or super detailed structures, then perhaps N is not for you regardless of your space.

Chris

slack

I did refer to watching the local modular N scalers.  I see jerky operation and a lot of slack action in the couplers leading to a very accordian or inchworm effect.  Slow speed operation is intermittent at best or nonexistant in the settings I have been exposed to N scale.  If your experience with N scale is the exact opposite of that, great!  I'm not going to claim that perfectly smooth operation in N scale is an urban legend based on my personal experiences though since I've seen youtube videos showing that slow/smooth operation of N scale locos is actually possible.  I just haven't seen it in person.

At no point did I say it was a misguided choice, simply trying to point out my reasons for not going with N since a possible change in scale was mentioned and people were mentioning reasons for / against N or HO.  Mainly it's the eyesight and dexterity issues I deal with.  The other major one is that I simply have not seen a smoothly operating loco, at reasonable speeds without slack action that destroys any illusion of scale, in the settings I'm exposed to in N scale.  Well, the 450+ scale mile per hour teakettle certainly was smooth and impressive, but probably not a fair exhibition of fine running.  An excellent showing on the smooth trackwork required to pull it off though. 

If he is able to work with or to the strengths of his chosen scale, good for him and he's clearly made a choice that suits him.  I don't feel that it would be a good choice of scale for ME.  My apologies if that was not clear or you somehow felt it was an attack on your chosen scale.  I stand by my reasons for not choosing N scale based on my experience with it thus far.  FWIW, the eyesight and dexterity issues have kept me from going completely over to Proto87 as well.

-

S

Smooth

Shoggoth , you really need to get out more.....you are speaking of the N scale we had to deal with 30 years ago.

I'll start with the smooth control comments.. Anything made in the last 10 years by mainstream companies is super smooth, flywheel motion and most will crawl a tie at a time. Diesels are easy, even Bachmann's new 44 tonner qualifies in this category and most people write off Bachmann as a serious contender. With steam you have to look at the better loco's but realistically right now, there aren't too many cheapy steam loco's out there in N. Bachmann Spectrum steam is excellent, Kato steam is excellent, Walthers steam with recent releases is now excellent, MP steam is good but can be made better, even Bachmann's standard line loco's are acceptable.

Here is an out of the box Walthers Y-3 with sound....

A bachman 0-6-0 from the 1980's...the new ones are better.

My B&O S-1 commented about earlier...based on a Kato Mikado. (the jerky youtube video doesn't do it justice)

These examples are all DC. The Y-3 has a sound decoder obviously but is being run on DC in the video. Eventually as the layout gets built, they will be converted to DCC and with that should run even smoother. A decoder with BEMF does wonders for locomotives with a tight spot.

As far as detailing goes, the parts are out there, you just need to know where to find them. Detail Associates, Precision Scale, Minatures by Eric, JNJ, BLMA, Gold Medal Models are just a few of the N scale detail manufactures that come to mind. N scale steam is not an RTR hobby if you want to have really accurate loco's but they are attainable.

Some stills of a recently finished project.. a B&O D-30 USRA 0-6-0 switcher.

Tony Hines

Slowly recreating the B&O steam era in N, one loco at a time.

Another idea to consider

If you are considering going to HO for steam, then another option could be live steam in OO. this fits the HO track and adds a new dimension to the operation.

GWR

Nuts!

LOL thats nuts! I thought you were pulling my leg but a quick google search finds a number of live steam OO stuff. Everything looks very british.. not my thing.. but a very cool idea.

Chris

Hey Chris, we covered a lot

Hey Chris, we covered a lot of the reliability issues over on the Railwire, and you can't swing a dead cat on any of these forums without hitting an HO Gauger who will never "get it" when it comes to N...  So we won't even go there.

The biggest obstacle you'll have with N scale steam is modifying what's available to make it look like what you want.  That may be as simple as selecting a commercial model that's lettered for your favorite road, or getting a set of decals, or like Tony, it could be a from the ground-up rebuild.

As noted elsewhere, the mechanisms that are out today are all very good.  Some need more tweaking than others, but all are passable, smooth, and quiet.  There's also a good variety available now.  From the Bachmann 0-6-0 that Tony worked on up to the Athearn Big Boy with sound.  There's still a few wheel arrangements that we haven't gotten yet, but with the 2-8-0, 0-8-0, 4-6-2, and 2-8-2's that are out there, you can still have a pretty diverse fleet.

I dare say the best bet would be to start with something economical and reliable like a Spectrum Consolidation, and try it out for awhile.  Nothing answers your questions like a little experience!

Lee

Funny you should mention that..

The railwire is proving to be my favorite place for n-scale specific posting.. hence the cross post in this case. Doesn't hurt that guys in my regular N-scale group are there a lot..

I do have a Bachman 2-8-0 which started all this. I am doing two things right now. I am looking for a prototype I can use to do a 1915 era "small" layout to try out doing some steam more intensely then my little layout would allow. I am taping together sanborn maps and looking through photos for just the right subject..

The other thing I am doing is looking to see if I can make a HO plan in my space that might satisfy my desires. I found I can get a decent sized yard into my space. What I can't get around is the compression of the structures or the lack of running room between scenes.

I appreciate all the insight Lee, both here and at Railwire! Thanks!

Chris

Dead Cat impact I guess...

Well, considering I saw all of this most recently at the NMRA nationals this year, I guess I'm not getting out nearly enough.

I'll defer to your experiences and just chalk it up to bad timing on my part in that maybe when I walk by they just need to clean the track or I'm just running into the same groups of people on the modular setups in the area who like to run older less than stellar equipment.  *Shrug*  As I said before, I can only go from what I've seen repeatedly at multiple shows with my own eyes so I doubt it's a case of yet another HO scaler who doesn't "get it".  It's good to know at least SOMEONE, in N scale is getting some of the performance I've seen only in videos.

I suppose this same discussion is going on now with some Z scalers disparaging the N scalers not "getting it" either and their urban legends about Z scale equipment from days gone by.  I suppose I could also get out a cane and wave it at the N scalers and tell them to get off my lawn while I'm at it. 

If it works for you, have at it.  As I really have nothing left to add at this point I'll duck out and apologize for ever bothering to offer some unsolicited insights into why I chose a certain scale when someone suggested considering a change of scale and ensure to stay out of any such discussions in the future.

-

S

"Shoggoth , you really need to get out more.....you are speaking of the N scale we had to deal with 30 years ago.

I'll start with the smooth control comments.. Anything made in the last 10 years by mainstream companies is super smooth, flywheel motion and most will crawl a tie at a time. Diesels are easy, even Bachmann's new 44 tonner qualifies in this category and most people write off Bachmann as a serious contender. With steam you have to look at the better loco's but realistically right now, there aren't too many cheapy steam loco's out there in N. Bachmann Spectrum steam is excellent, Kato steam is excellent, Walthers steam with recent releases is now excellent, MP steam is good but can be made better, even Bachmann's standard line loco's are acceptable."

Modular Ain't the be all and N'd All

Shoggoth, I won't dispute what you've witnessed, as I've witnessed the same thing at the shows I attend.  Modular N trak layouts are the classic double edged sword.  While there's no better vehicle for giving the scale (and the hobby in general) a lot of exposure, it's very much a matter of the chain being only as strong as the weakest link.

You have hundreds, if not thousands of people with varying degrees of skills building individual units, and any one of those modules could be the source of 90% of the problems you saw.  Likewise with equipment.  Many modular guys don't have home layouts where they can regularly run their equipment, so it's not until "show time" that they realize the wheels are cruddy or there's a bind in the worm gear.

For those of us with club layouts or home layouts, there's a lot more "quality control" when it comes to trackwork and equipment maintenance.  Granted, there's a much smaller audience, but that's where we can achieve the highest level of performance that we're discussing here.

To put into context, think of the difference in performance between your Kato HO engines and say an old Tyco with a pancake motor running on brass track...  Some guys are going to be perfectly content with the latter, and in N scale, there's no law against them building a module!

Lee