Re: Alone on a big layout?

You MAY be able to pull it off, but ultimately maintenance will kill the fun.

An Observation

As I mentioned in another thread I have available to me 2300 square feet of basement. Of course not all is space for a layout. I "had" dreamed of a large layout filling the basement. I'm a loner when it comes to things like a layout. I'm also very fussy when it comes to others working on something I own.

I started to plan a complete line based on two railroads I would follow and started to draw up some plans. I started to realize that it would take large amounts of recourses (wood, wire, track, switches,etc.) to build myself. Next once built it would need to be maintained by me. Another time consumer. Also I would need to gather quite a large number of rolling stock and maintain that. Then I realized that I couldn't model all of what I really wanted. So I trimmed the line down to a major junction and branch line and a couple of narrow gauge line thrown in. I think I now have my idea of what I want for a manageable layout down.

Unlike you Ken I've been retired for 12 years already and my major time is spent finishing off a house I started 12 years ago, plus I have some other irons in the fire as you know. So in order to build my dream layout I've restored to building modules. My first modules will be the limestone quarry in HOn30. Next will come the coal mining module of a coal mine in HOn3 and the standard gauge will be intertwined as I go. Eventually I'm hoping it will be a complete model empire hopefuly before I take that last express ride to the big station in the sky.

Bernd

Edited: Found some pictures of what a 2300 square foot basement looks like. This is for the people who can't imagine what a space this size looks like

The basement walls.

The cap on the basement wall. That's my wife and sister sitting on the floor.

Approximately 5/8 of the basement with the wood working tools.

Not trying to brag here. Just showing how big 2300sqft is to the spatially challenged.

automation?

As a member of the WRMRC, I have a idea of what's involved in a big layout.  We never try to operate without the full crew, and we only run once a month normally.  This does not seem like we don't run often enough to me.  The layout is also taking an enormous amount of time to build, though we are hindered in that most of us live a good distance away and only make it out for a few hours a week for construction.

I am contemplating a 500 sqft layout in my basement, which is roughly half the downstairs area.  This is not a huge space compared to the 2000 sqft at the club.  However, I am planning a German double track mainline operation there, and question how many people in the area will be into that sort of thing.  A German mainline makes the typical US mainline look like a laid back branchline; if you wait trackside more than 5 minutes for a train, there must have been a derailment someplace.

Trying to create that kind of traffic would be difficult even with a full crew of operators, so I'm looking into automating a lot of the through traffic.  Using Railroad and Co., or some JMRI software of some sort, I could create background traffic for trains that myself and a smaller crew are running.  The Railroad and Co. software is pretty sophisticated, and would allow you to switch trains back and forth from automatic to manual operation at will.  There would need to be extensive detection and signalling to make it work, of course, but that would be a given with what I am modeling anyway.

Maintenance

If you're going to build and maintain a large layout by yourself consider a scale larger than HO. 

I have found that S scale has fewer maintenance problems than HO.  Probably because of the larger wheel contact and extra weight.

3 Rail O scale is another possibility.  With those oversized flanges and much heavier weight, you'll have less problems.  Atlas makes some nice looking track and has #5 and #7.5 turnouts in addition to the radius turnouts. If you switch the couplers to KD's it doesn't look bad.  Plus a lot of the 3 rail equipment is scale as opposed to toy.  Personally, I can't get by the third rail, but if you can this could work well for you.

Good luck

Paul

Computer control

I plan on running my layout with some automation. Have the computer run a train while I run mine. I suppose I will have the guys from the club over sometimes but I want to be able to operate the layout at any time. Usually late in the evenings.

I have a 2000sq ft basement but have elected to only use a 16x17 section at this time. I want something that is manageable for one person.

Hope so

I'll let you know. In the present it sure is fun to build. Have been alone 99% of the way so far.

Nothing says you have to operate the whole layout every time. Within the overall track plan you could say there are 2 switching layouts. Set staging for run-through and it becomes a big roundy roundy. There is always working the mine or working the yard. Point is you don't have to run the whole layout every time.

When I did not have the

When I did not have the resources to build a layout I built some dioramas instead.  It was fun and helped fine tune my modeling skills! There has been some recent postings here at MRH that showed what can be accomplished with dioramas. In the meantime you can work at developing a plan for your future railroad and perhaps even get started on it. After all this is a hobby not a job so there is no hurry.  I would keep it manageable and within your realm of expertise.  In time through your job or the area you live you may find people who are interested in the hobby that will assist you!  You may be surprised, sometimes the least likely people are model railroaders! Good Luck!

One Man Layout

You just have to pick your focus clearly. 

If you will be operating mostly by yourself, then model a branch that was served by one local.  There are lots of examples of branch lines that only had one local on them. 20-30 miles of single track with one lone job.

Don't make the train huge. 15-20 cars max.  Long runs between stations.  Lots of narrow benchwork to conserve time doing scenery.  Simple trackwork.  Prototypical.  Put in a few passing sidings just in case another person comes over.

Extra people can be absorbed as 2 man crews.  You normally run 1 person, but if 5 people come over you can run 3 2 man crews, the local and two extras.

If its just you , you don't need 20 trains moving.

Ken, build it and they will come.

Remember that old line? There are probably a lot of people around you that you haven't met that would, if given the chance, would operate with you. Until word gets out that you need a crew you just won't know.

There was another comment made about letting people work on your layout because one is fussy. When reading some of the layout articles it seems the owner will mention he likes one part of building the layout over wiring, backdrop painting, track laying than say structure building. So, we read that his friend Smitty did all the wiring and it is flawless. Or Peppy hand laid all the track so perfectly. Which gives the owner more time to build master craftsman structures. Let your friends use their skills to enhance your layout and  you might learn something new.

Den

Oh Glory, Oh Glory

If you like display running, you can build a 'super-Lionel' layout with a half-dozen trains running around.

If you like switching, I'd think one man alone would be glorious.  You pick up the throttle where you left off, look at your paperwork, sign-in as if you were real crew, and then go on out and do the job.

You could have random and programmed SOUNDS occurring elsewhere on the layout, or even a semi-automated (computer controlled) priority train pass through your zone of attention so that you had to clear the main  But otherwise the rest of the layout is just the world.

A team of two [conductor-engineer or engineer-fireman depending on era and type of train] would be better than a single operator but either way, all that real estate makes your layout hyper-sincere.  You don't pass through that scenery, that town, that aisle, for several operating days.  (That assumes that your 'job' is not a one-shift out-and-back 'turn'.)

I'm ignoring maintenance because I take the question to be hypothetical.  A Gedanken experiment, if you will.

##

is it worth building a big layout alone?

   It depends on your tolerance for looking at large unfinished spaces and not getting discouraged and deciding to take up golf instead I guess. Do you like to build stuff, lots of stuff, stuff that might not be really interesting in it's self but that is needed to fill up all the space? Can you stick to a long term plan and not get bored and decide to tear it all out and switch era or scale after five years?  Do you enjoy cleaning and dusting and cheerfully repairing the stuff you break while doing the chores? Do you enjoy keeping a large fleet of rolling stock in somewhat rolling condition even after much of it is ten year past state of the art?  Are you young? When I was 40 I built a larger train building, when I was 50 I divided it in half , when I became 60 I started to think about modeling the Harlem Transfer.

Alone is not that much fun

My biggest layout was 15' x 22' room. Being alone and running a layout that big on my one is was not that fun. The funny thing about it is, that is the only layout that completely done. I did all the work with the help of my daughter. I finally took it down because everytime I was going to use it it took me about 45 minutes to clean and get it ready to run. Once it was running it was bored because I had no one to share my fun with.

Now I am working on a N scale switching layout the size of a door. Eight feet by 32 inches wide. I get to sit on front of it and switch/operate my time away.

First, I'd say don't do the

First, I'd say don't do the big layout but plan for it.  Build something smaller that can handle you and one or two others until numbers start to build then extend the smaller layout into your larger layout.

I don't have many operators in my area but... my layout can only handle two or three comfortably, which is what I planned for; however my good friend in N scale who was going to operate with me died from a stroke and my son left for the Canadian Forces.  So I plan to grow my own.

What I plan to do is search locally and create operators from guys I invite over within blocks of my home and the ones that respond favourably I will encourage to keep coming and teach them the layout.

Another good reason to go slowly with something smaller is you might find with experience your priorities might change.  I thought I'd be really into operations and I "sort of" am, but not as avidly as others.  I find that personalities can get in the way of a good ops session and I've had a few occasions when I would have cheerfully strangled some  as alpha male dominance came to the fore in ops.  Not all operators are "fun."

Also your plans may literally change, you might have planned a great switching layout only to discover you really liked to see them run on the mainline - kind of a Tony Koester change in plans; or it may be vice versa.  With more experience its easier to change up a smaller layout into a larger layout, rather than take down the larger layout for another one.

Its the old lemons into lemonade deal; you have a chance to get experience, grow your own operators, and experiment on a smaller scale, take advantage of it while you can.  Once that large layout starts growing, you are committed.

That's exactly what I'm doing

That's exactly what I'm doing right now. I had them build me a 2,000 sf building for my railroad, office and workshop, 1,400 sf are used for the layout room. I'm building a German layout so what Jurgen said applies to me. I have a double track main that will need a lot of traffic to look realistic so it will probably be automated. I also have a single track branch line that I will probably use to run trains manually if I'm in the mood. This way I get the best of all worlds as far as my interests go.

Arggghhhhh....

The BC&SJ is a moderately large layout with a footprint of not quite 1100 sqft. Mostly it's single deck but there are 3 lower deck staging areas and a lower deck branchline (Redland).

Mainline length as planned will be about 5 HO scale miles (300+ feet), the Deschutes branch (Redland) is about 1 scale mile, the Siskiyou branchine will be about 2/3 scale mile, and the Toledo branch will be about 1/2 scale mile. Non of these distances include staging yards or leads/helix to staging yards.

I started work on the current BC&SJ in Jan 2004 by mounting the Mill City area salvaged from the previous version of the BC&SJ. This area is L shaped with a 12' leg and a 14' leg and gave me the ability to run trains right away.

Benchwork is relatively easy to build (if you have the right tools) and will make you feel as though you're making great progress. Don't be deceived. The vast bulk of the work is in track, wiring, scenery, structures, electronics (control panels), lighting (if the area wasn't lit before you started building benchwork), etc. Progress can start to feel glacial, even when you put lots of time into working on it (after I got laid off in Oct 2008 I sulked and fumed for about 5 months before I became an almost full time scenery builder.

The layout you saw in my "Up the Creek" column in the March 2013 issue of MRH (current issue as of creating this post) is the result of 9 years of working on the layout. I've in sort of working hard mode to get it ready for the 2015 National Convention which is coming to Portland. I don't know how much I'll get done by then but I'd bet it won't be "done".

Right now I'm able to run op sessions again (after a 1.5 year hiatus) which is cool. But it does mean construction tends to focus on that. I built on the layout in a sequence that allowed me to run sessions long before the golden spike was (will be) driven.

Because it's a partially completed layout the mainline is point to point. Point to point sucks for lone wolf operation unless you delight in switching. I used to delight in switching. However the thrill has largely worn off unless the rest of the layout is running. For me, the drive to operate comes from the interactions of multiple trains with mutiple crew (I've had crews of up to 19 people in the train dungeon). A computer program running other trains seems to me to be a poor substitute for a group of like-minded (OK half of us don;t have actively used minds) train nuts scribbling track warrants and trying to deliver freight and passengers to where they ought to be going.

The other thing is, it's way too easy to walk into an 1100 sqft train room and start thinking "Oh Lord, what am I doing here?" instead "Oh wow this is great!" although I do have my "This is gonna be so wonderful when its done moments".

So if you're going to build a large layout,

1. Be sure it can be built a piece at a time so you can do something "useful" with it before it's done.

2. Plan for how long it will take to get the point of seeing something besides plywood and pink foam when you walk in the train room.

3. Be sure the estimated costs (sheets of plywood, feet of track, turnouts, wire, electronics, locos, cars, structures, lighting, masonite, etc) are understood so you don't get part way in and discover you're way over your head financially.

4. If there's ANY chance you'll be moving in the next 15 years, build the layout out of modules instead of built in.

5. Have you seen enough layouts, run on enough layouts, and worked on enough layouts to know what it is you actually want to build/own/operate with a reasonable degree of certainty? If construction is what you like best then this doesn't matter so much because you'll probably be tearing it out (or at least pieces of it) to redo them anyway (ala George Selios and the F&SM). Nothing wrong with that.

6. If the following intimidates you, good! But don't let it stop you from dreaming and building. Just try to make sure you dream and build productively instead of building yourself into a corner.

Good luck in your endeavor, sir!

Charlie

The Big Question

Ken,

For a number of years i was a member of a local model railroad club. We lost our meeting location and most of the members have moved or died. I have enjoyed one of my friend's layout for a number of years.

I have a lot of sympathy for your situation and wish to offer a little wisdom. I have acquired a 10X45 trailer finished it, and added a 12X18 addition. This has taken 12 years. It is wired and mostly finished on the inside, this is my dream layout room.

Money and spare time have hindered the progress. Now circumstances will force me to leave this area when I retire. I have to ask the question if I had dreamed a little smaller, just maybe I would have had a lot more fun.

I covered some of this with a little humor in A Rounder's Quest in an previous post.

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/the-worst-part-of-model-railroading-12189823

My conclusion is that a smaller operational layout may be better than an non-operational dream layout.

Regards,

John

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Wisdom doesn't necessarily come with age. Sometimes age just shows up all by itself. Tom Wilson

Do you just like to watch trains run?

This is actually a serious question for model railroaders especially given the comment on the latest Ditch the "Reverse Running" column?. What do we expect to gain from our hobby?

I occasionally enjoy operating, and a large layout can make the experience with more time rolling through the county more enjoyable regardless of how prototypical or precise the layout is. However, at times I just want to watch the trains go round-and-round. I love watching the kids in the museum garden layout do the running - literally - as they chase the trains around the six loops while we sit back and enjoy the commotion, our snoozes only sporadically interrupted by kids asking why the trains on the sidings are not moving or attempting to climb to the top of the REAL caboose. So a long mainline can be an advantage on a layout with more time to contemplate ones navel.

On my now defunct 200+ foot mainline HO layout, which was originally structured around NMRA modules, I could keep some trains running around the main line loops while I, and maybe a few friends, could operate. Most of these modules, due the simpler scenicing required, were rural scenes. No automation just watch out for the specials on the mains. This kept the kids (e.g., Wives, Newbies, klutzes, etc.) occupied while I or we played.

So if you like to see trains run - automated or not - design your layout as you feel fits your needs because it is you layout. Miles of Nebraska corn fields or kilometers of Bayesian hop fields (preferred even in the US) makes no difference it will be beautiful.

On the topic of maintenance, several posters have questioned the logic of building a large layout due to the maintenance. My response is RED HERRING. Most of the problems I have seen with layouts is not the result of lack of maintenance (and here I step into it) but poor design, construction and especially wiring. In addition to HO and N trains, I run DC, DCC, and RF Large Scale out doors, so I do not want to hear any complaints about track problems especially track cleaning. And having worked on and supported several “display” layouts, some of witch run almost 24/7, with proper design and construction the only real problem large layout operators have to deal with is dust. Just ask the crews at Miniatur Wunderland Hamburg or EnterTRAINment Junction.

...

Maintenance is indeed an issue in engineering and construction; design it right and build it right, and it won't need much work to stay running.

Otherwise, the only way to really enjoy a large long-term layout is to have a large long-term space.  You cannot have a large layout in a small long term space, and you cannot hope to develop anything if you have a large space but a short term lease.  Every time you get something some what completed, you'll be tearig down and starting all over again - even if it was designed to be mobile.

Clubs are great, provided they're in long term spaces...

design it right and build it right, and it won't need much work

I find the design and construction the easy part. The hard part is the housekeeping, it's like having another house to clean and it's a hard to clean house with all the usual modeling clutter , scenery, details, and nooks and crannies and unfinished places for dust and bugs to hide. If I had a professional maid that I could send in to do the cleaning I might be more inclined to finish a large layout :>

Someone with only  a few hours of hobby time per week might be better off building models and putting them in glass cases or building a smaller layout in an easy to  clean spare room? .....DaveBranum  

Karma

There is an underlying question that one need answer for themselves in many of these replies - know thyself.

Each of the these statement could be followed by "then a big layout is probably not for you."

• If your workbench is full of started but never completed projects...
• If you lose interest when results are not immediately forthcoming...
• If you cannot feed the monster a sufficient amount of cash to keep it progressing...
• If you measure success by whether or not trains are running...
• If your normal work habit is to jump in and wing it rather than extensive planning prior...

It may sound corny but I believe the Alone on a Big Layout question is one that only you can answer. It is a question more about your personality than anything else.

An idea

I thought a little more about what I want.  One of the things that crossed my mind is that I'd really like to model the D&W fairly accurately.  Even if I don't operate it with a group of guys, I'd enjoy building the model.  Also, by the late '30s they were down to one or two trains a day.  That means it would actually be practical for me to operate the line alone, if I felt like it.

Of course, all this is just dreaming at the moment.  I have neither the space nor the budget yet.  But maybe someday...

My conclusion is that a

I have a 12x31 ft layout under construction - phase 1 of the "BIG ONE", but it's slow going for several reasons.  So I am building a small 5'4"x12' layout using sectional track with roadbed and some Woodland Scenic grassmats just to be able to run trains and do a little switching.

Enjoy

Paul

Size vs Complexity

I see no real impediment to building a large layout for a small crew in a "reasonable" time.  Actually i would see it easier to build a 2000 sq ft layout for 1-2 operators than it would be to build a 1000 sq ft layout for 6-10 operators.

The key is the design.

If you are wanting a layout for one or two crews you need fewer sidings, less complicated yard arrangements, fewer industries fewer sidings, fewer switches, more just plain running between stations.  For one or two crews you don't need a huge engine facility.  You don't need a 10 track Union Station.  KISS

The major impediment to building a big layout is finding enough track. 

If the layout is designed properly I can see a large small crew layout having the benchwork and track completed in  less than five years.  Scenery and structures would be another decade or so.

But maybe someday...

If you want to model the D&W there's no reason to not start now and build stuff that you can use someday when you get that large space. Locos, rolling stock, D&W buildings and other signature infrastructure along the right of way can be built and stored for the future so the time you have now isn't wasted just waiting. If there's a bit more room a sectional layout of a few modules is the next step, design them as parts that can be placed in the future layout plan, maybe a small yard or industrial district or perhaps an interesting bridge over river scene, etc. At worst you'll have a nice collection of D&W rolling stock and scenic parts to sell off if the big layout never happens or you lose interest in the subject and building the stuff will increase your modeling experience no matter which way you go in the future....DaveBranum