I agree

Excellent video and great modeling.  

I also agree

That is very great modeling and a wonderful video. More and more I really enjoy that type of urban railroading.

Yes!

Somebody needs to contact Jon Grant about either submitting his own article on the layout or about doing an article on his layout.  Once that happens, just submit it to MRH!

Sweet spot for Sweethome Chicago

I've got a bit of a soft spot for that layout - the "Shultz Shipping" you see about  10 seconds in was named for me.

I'd love to see an article from Jon about it - goodness knows he's made enough forum posts on the various forum to create a book from.

Nothing gained!

Nothing gained, nothing lost!

Have sent Jon an email suggesting it!!

Having seen (and operated) the layout, it certainly is incredible.

Brian

Great Video

Awesome video!. I especially like the part at 4:41, at first I thought it was real! The sound is great too, almost makes me want to switch to HO Scale.

Shultz Shipping

You see Jeff you're getting free publicity...it must be good to be the "KING" !!!!!!

Now I know why you have that perpetual smile.        

Great Video

"makes me want to switch to HO Scale."  Jason, what scale do you model in ??

N Scale

I model in N Scale. I've already spent quie a bit of money though and have a layout started though (I'll get pictures up when there's something to show), so I don't think I'll be switching any time soon. N scale is what fits my needs though, so I'll just have to do without the sounds.

N Scale

Yes, about a year ago I got hooked on N scale and I dida small layout for my office which came out very nice. I really liked the amount of things you can do in a small space but the biggest thing I missed was the sound. I've had sound on my layouts since the 80's and I really like it.

The one thing that's true with N scale

The one thing that's true with N scale is DCC decoders tend to cost more than in HO.

You'll look far and wide to find a $13 fleet decoder in N scale that will just "drop in". N scale decoders in general cost more because of the much smaller form factor and the added complexities that entails.

Also, in many cases the easiest way to put a decoder in an N scale loco is to simply replace the loco board with an equivalent decoder board. Those boards tend to be in the twenty and thirty dollar range - roughly double or tripple the cost of HO fleet decoders.

In short, with N you give up sound (for the most part) and you should be prepared to spend more on loco decoders - as compared to HO scale.

Tradeoffs.

What you say is true, but you also have to look at the fcat that there are probably 6 or 7 HO Scale model railroaders (if not more) for each one of N-Scalers. That fact has to be factored in as well because the design of decoders costs about the same in each scale. However the market that cost has to be amortized over is certainly going to translate into the price that has to be charged for the decoder. In other words, if it costs $100,000 to design a decoder, having a possible market of 100,000 ($100,000/100,000 = $1 per decoder) is certainly going to translate to lower cost per decoder than having on a market of only 10,000 ($100,000/10,000 = $10 per decoder).

Irv

HO vs N Scale

I don't know what is the latest figure but I think that N scale is growing by leaps and bounds in numbers. For what I read and have noticed the N scalers are rapidly catching up with HO. One trend I have noticed is that there is a rapidly growing numbers of "Bullet Trains" afficionados. There is a large group around the DC area and now I hear that the biggest fad in Texas is those N scales Bullet trains.  So I won't be surprise in the near future that they ( N Scalers) will surpass HO. The running mehanism is awesome. The details are superb. And of course the biggest advantage is the size. But theat is just my observation from an O Scaler.  

We'll see ...

According to surveys I've seen, the N scale market is roughly 25-30% the size of the HO market and it's been that way for the last decade or more. Our reader survey (so far) shows 22% of our readers model primarily in N while 67% model in HO. All the other scales make up the remaining 11% or so.

This maps pretty well to the current market size for these scales, so we're aligning closely to the hobby's general population (most likely) in our readership.

As to whether or not N will overtake HO, we'll see. I won't say it couldn't happen, but if it does happen it's not likely to be overnight. People aren't coming into the hobby in droves, and modelers don't ditch their current scale in droves either.

Many modelers purchase products from other scales, however. I am an HO modeler, yet I own N scale equipment and buy N scale stuff once in a blue moon. Just because I happen to purchase N scale stuff now and then doesn't mean I'm about to ditch my HO equipment however. I like to display N scale equipment on my desk at work, for example, to remind me of the hobby. It's small and unobtrusive - yet it's still model railroading!

And of course the biggest

And of course, the biggest disadvantage is the size.

I love my N scale trains but they sure are small. I hate trying to see the little car numbers. I think the market share has some more room to grow, especially in the "medium space" market. People who get into operations and find they want a little more in their 10x12 bedroom. However, I think the ergonomics of working with the smaller scales in a hobby that has an older demographic is going to make it tough to overtake a more comfortable scale like HO.. I know there was a time when HO scale was viewed that way.. but I really think the size is hitting against some non-model railroad  issues like quality of vision and steadyness of hand..

Chris

This was my first concern

That was my decision basis when I got started - not that my vision is that bad, but I found painting 15mm miniatures a lot less enjoyable than 28mm and I couldn't see that improving as I age.  However, as Joe said, I do have a couple of pieces of N, and were there an N modular group nearby, I'd assembly one gladly. I just don't want it as my primary. Heck, there are some days that G scale is looking good....

The proverbial double-edged sword

You can definitely make a case for size being both the biggest advantage and biggest disadvantage of N scale.  It's only a matter of perspective.  In fact, the size is the thing I love most about N scale, and hate the most!  I'm learning the dexterity it requires with practice, but I can see one day in 15-20 years looking at a change of scale.  I do also have HO equipment.  I plan on building an 8-foot shelf display to put up in my home with a passenger train on it (loco and all cars will be from one of our sponsors - Rapido).

I don't believe N will ever catch HO.  I can see N taking some market share away, but I'd be really surprised if it went over 30-35% in my lifetime.  I think HO will have well over half the market share for decades to come.

A function of time

Look at the demographics of who is actively in the hobby and what their ages are,  Certainly, there are those who get into the hobby early, and stay very active.  But there are many, myself included, who were in the hobby as a teenager, but adult career, family, etc. put the hobby in the back seat, or the arm chair, to a great extent. 

So when we return to active modelling, we pursue our interests, as we remember them.  Those of us in our 60's remember steam or 1st gen. diesel, and 40 and 50 foot cars.  So, combined with eyesight and manual dexterity issues, we could easily pick HO as our current scale.  This was my case.  I sold almost all the N-scale I had acquired in the 70's and 80's, and am upgrading what I kept from my 60's HO stuff, and am acquiring new HO equipment.  And I am enjoying it.  I'm not looking back on the decision even when I see how far N-scale has come in detail and operational ability.

I can see that someone who grew up with trilevels, articulated containers, 5000 ft³ gons, and 3-4 unit 75 ft. long 2nd and 3rd gen. diesels will maybe pick N-scale when they reach a point in life where they can actively model, even when eyesight and dexterity say "maybe not N".  Again, we pursue those interests as we remember them.  If that's what you want to see run, then the bedroom size layout could well need N-scale.  And the state of N-scale quality today is such that it would be the correct decision

Bullet Trains in N-Scale

I don't run bullet trains as I have no desire to run non-US style equipment. The fact that many do simply is a refelction of the fact that until recently Kato offered more Japanese style trains than they did US styles. Add to this the fact that more Japanese cars are soild in the US than US and I think you begin to see a trend that does not help the current economy or employment.

It does point to one very important effect of this. ES consumers do not trust US companies when it comes to making good products nor do the trusts US companies with doing anything for anyone, even their own stockholders, except for themselves. What they fail to realize is that all of this stems from two concepts that have taken over as the basic intent of management: 1. Selfishness and 2. the Keynsian view that in the long run we're all dead.

Neither of these bodes well for the future.

Irv

We'll See

HO didn't overtake O overnight either. There are a lot of factors that have to be considered to see what the trends are, Joe. One of them has to do with price factors and affordability. O Scale priced itself out of the market and HO was the winner there primarily for that reason. How many of us got HO trainsets because our parents couldn't afford Lionel or American Flyer? I would think there would be a tendency for one to contunue in the scale that one had as child. But one can't overlook the affect of how much real estate and how much treasure was available to spend on the hobby.

Now lets let at it this way. In the 1950s many people still lived in their own houses rather than in small apartments where there wwas little available room for a model railroad. If you don't have lots of room, you go for what wil fit. In today's economy most people probably live in small apartments where even HO Scale layouts become impractical. N-Scale, and even more Z-Scale may just be more attractive options  then because of the fact that you can do lots more in either 1/160 or 1/220 than you can in 1/87 in any amount of space.

The cost of model railroad equipment, track, scenery, structures, etc is another important factor that needs to be considered. O Scale is much more expensive than S or anything smaller. S still is more expensive than HO, N or Z. However, so long as HO and N are nearly the same pricewise, people aren't going to flock to N or even Z. Once HO prices go through the roof and N comes down in relative cost (which hasn't happened) I think you'll see a change but it won't because people change scales. It happen because the new folks who come into the hobby will opt for the smaller scales while the older hobbyists who are in HO die off or leave the hobby because of age and physical or mental disabilties causes them to give up the hobby. That's primarily what happened with O.

Irv

Age of Model Railroaders

Sure size is an issue, but someone who was anb early HO scaler probably wroite the same thing when the hobby was dominated by O Scalers. However, I think what really determines which scale will win out over time in terms of numbers really boils down to how much product sells and in which scale it sells. In other words, train sets probably dominate the market in all scales. Why? Because most of the train sets are purchased as gifts for kids at a particular time of the year.

Many of those who get these sets either quicklly  lose interest or relegate the trainset to decorative purposes and have them run around the family tree in December. Either way, most of the market that is devoted to train sets is lost here.

What is left is a market of newbies who often do not get good advice or end up having to deal with parental opposition (often for good reasons not always having to do with school work). Many of those will soon leave the hobby as well. Of those who remain, most will stay with one scale for most of their lives. Others will leave the hobby because of school, work or family or economic pressures. When they come back they may choose another scale but that will be dependent on wealth, space and spousal acquiescence.

But what primarily determines one chosen scale has more to do with available space and wealth than other factors. For me it was available space because I have always seen the prices for HO and N scale have been nearly the same.

As for what the future holds, it all depends on what scales are sold in the chains or specilaty stores in the Fall and early Winter and in recent years chains like Toys R Us and others haven't stock any kinds of trains other than Lego (if even that) because they have found people don't think of them for their kids.

I don't think the hobby is going to die off because train shows are well attended by many people who don't have any in their homes and probably wouldn't buy them unless they got them at these shows.

Irv

A function of time

Don,

There is much truth in what you write and I ent through the same process you did. However, after my wife and I moved into our house in 1982 we negotiated what was going to go into the train room and it was agreed that it would be N-Scale.

When I left active involvement with the hobby in 1987, my wife probably breathed a sigh of relief thinking that her the "little boy" she married had finally given up his toys. Over time she must have realized that that wasn't the case since I still read model railroad magazines and looked st them whenever I had the time and opportunity to do so. I don't know if she realized that it was just a hiatus from the hobby until I retired.

Fast forward to the Spring of 2008. I had retired from the business world primarily because CFO jobs in NYC had dried up in NYC and we chose not to move anywhere else. So I got bored watching TV and walking around seeing the same sights day after day. I told my wife that I wanted to join a model railroad club. She wasn't to happy about that but when I did it she resigned herself to the facts that it woud be in N-Scale since I still had lots f those because I had sold most of the HO Scale stuff I had from the 1970s. Little did she realize tha I would finally clean out the train room and actualy start construction of a new layout in N-Scale. I had never even though of going back to HO primarily because of the limitations of the space I had available and what could be done in it. Besides, I never liked steam and I also liked being able to run long trains with modern equipment.

I am 60 and so I wonder how long before my eyesight gets to the point where I need a microscope to even see the trains let alone run them. But I don't have to get rid of the N-Scale now as I take off my glasses when I need to look at something close up.

Irv

So there you go

So there you go, Irv.  Long trains and modern equipment.  And N-scale that looks and performs outstandingly well.  And,  you can take off your glasses and see it.  I can just picture you smiling as you ponder it all.

 Me:  I have to put on one of several sets of reading glasses to rerail equipment, and look through a magnifier on a swing arm to do detail work.  Or call my wife who, like you, takes off her glasses for up close viewing.  But, it's all still fun.

Operators and Railfans

What it really seems to come down to - with definite exceptions to the rule both ways, is that HO is a more convenient scale for operators, who need to be able to read reporting marks and manipulate couplers, and N Scale is more for the railfan crown, who want to see prototypical length trains running through scenery.