New Source

Joe,

That's great!  I should be receiving the 120V ION generators that I ordered from The Electronic Goldmine shortly.  I will build a static applicator with that module and let you know how it goes.  If someone else doesn't step up and order the 12V module from the new source I will do that one as well and then do a comparison between the two units.

Edit:  I just noticed the new source is in Australia...not sure about the shipping charges from down under to Canada...

Edit 2:  My Electronic Goldmine order arrived today!  Super fast shipping to Canada and some really great deals!

I'm making my shopping list of the other parts I will need to make the applicator. :o)

This unit is in Australia at

This unit is in Australia at Oatley Electronics $9.00 U.S. $12.00 Au. Shipping and customs charge for 1 unit  to U.S. ???

Model Trains Video will order some test units ...

Model Trains Video will order some test units and then send them out to anyone willing to commit to building a static applicator and reporting back to us how it goes.

If all goes well, the Model Trains will get a supply of these and sell them to anyone in the world at a reasonble fee. We were selling the Electronic Goldmine versions for $21 I think. We'd order these bulk so we would save on shipping and then charge an "anywhere in the world" price that includes shipping.

We use priority shipping methods in the US and slow-boat shipping methods outside the US to keep the shipping prices roughly the same anywhere in the world - that's how we can do that.

Static grass applicator - 12V edition

Joe,

I'll double up my list of basic supplies for building the 120V version so I will have the goods on hand to build the 12 volt version once the ION generators become available.  I'll have both on hand then and can compare the two.  I'll be happy to video or photo the process for posting here or for use in an issue. Whatever you like.

Static across the border...

Well I've done my shopping.

I had to make some on the spot design changes because I could not find a PVC drain tail piece here.  I'll be using 1-1/2" ABS pipe and fittings for my builds instead of PVC.

I have also adopted some of the ideas from the Ztrains article on making the applicator.

I'm building the 120V version and have been shooting video and having Mrs. Blue take photos as the build progresses.

I am going to document the wiring portion of the build very thoroughly with attention to very safe wiring being my main concern.

While I am not concerned myself about building the 120V version I am happy to hear that Joe intends to make the 12V ION generators available again.  I would urge everyone to go the low voltage route rather than playing with AC line voltage.  It's just safer that way.

Back to the shop!

Re: Model Trains Video will order some test units...

Joe,

Any word on the status on the 12V negative ion generator units MTV was going to order from Oatley?

Mike

"Test" 12v ion generators

Good evening,

Have you gotten enough "takers" for your building and testing of the "new" ion generators?

I've successfully built one (12v) from the Electronic Goldmine and am willing to build another, if you're still looking for volunteers.

Regards from Akron, OH

Tim Moran

They have two models

They have two models - we got one and the results have been inconclusive, so we've ordered two more - one of each.

Tim, if you're game, once we get them, I'll send them along and you can report back how it goes. Does that work? Take a few photos and we'll put together a little report in the magazine.

I'm guessing the generators will be here early August, and then we'll forward them on to you. Use the contact us form to send us your address.

They have 2 models

Joe,

Those terms are agreeable. Thanks for letting me "beta" test these!

I've sent a off-list message with mailing info.

Regards,

Tim

Oatley Electronics Negative ION Generator - Results

First I have to apologize for the terrible delay in reporting my findings!  Back in early July I sustained an injury to my neck/spine that made it impossible for me to work with my hands.  Sitting and working was not an option as the muscles in my neck and shoulders would begin to spasm immediately.

After many visits to therapists and much time spent with an ice pack I can spend some time at the computer and the work bench again.  I still can not sit and work for long periods of time but I was able to complete a static grass applicator based on the 12 Volt ION generator from Oatley Electronics.

To make a long story short, the ION generator worked great.  I think this static grass applicator may be more powerful than the 120 Volt version I built with the ION Generator from The Electronic Goldmine.

More information, pictures and video of the results will be coming either in a future issue of MRH or here on the forum.

For now, be assured the 12 Volt negative ION generators from Oatley will work for the static grass applicator project.

Again, my apologies to Joe and the Staff at MRH for the delay.

Output?

Whats the voltage output of that unit? I know the AC version from goldmine is 7.5kv, but the unit inside the Noch unit is 15kv.. I would like to find something closer to that.

I studied the Noch unit at the train show. It has the charge plate behind the screen and material. The screen itself is plastic. This seems safer.. but does seem like it would require more charge. I also wonder if it helps that the flock is charged before it is pulled through an otherwise neutral screen..

If I could find a 15kv unit I would love to build another one using a charge plate made from copper clad PCB and use fiberglass or plastic screen. Then one can use various screens without having to attach and re-attach the lead from the generator.

Chris

btw- I am finding the cord of the AC unit, which needs to be three prong for me to have a useful ground, is a pain in the ass. I am really wanting to make a DC version that would be built around a rechargeable battery...

btw btw- I am also thinking these might be best built using a momentary switch to preserve battery life and to ensure that the unit is always OFF when left lying around..

Chris

Wondering what happened

I wondered what had happened to you, blue.  Glad you are on the road to recovery and look forward to the grass applicator.  I'm almost done my electric flyswatter grass applicator and will post the results when I complete it.

Output and other things...

Chris,

There were no markings that I noticed on the ION Generator I received.  Oatley specs it as being a maximum 8Kv output with the oscillator frequency at 15Khz.

I think there may have been some confusion with the Electronic Goldmine ION Generators specs.  I think the 15Kv they specified for the 12 Volt version was actually the oscillator frequency of 15Khz not the voltage output.

I am not aware of the specs of the Noch unit.  The ridiculous price tag is as far as I ever got with it... :o)

Measuring output is not too easy for the average home shop.  A voltmeter will not work.  It is easy enough to build a simple electroscope for comparing static charges but you will not get a numbered readout in that case, just a comparison.  I was thinking about making an electroscope to compare the output of the 120 volt model, the 12 volt model, and the two different versions of the fly swatter version to get a feel for the level of charge each is capable of producing but that's another project..

So far I am happy enough with the charged screen design.  It works pretty well IMO.  I made my version of the 120V applicator with a plug in connection for the screen lid that would allow changing lids easily.  The 12 volt model I just finished just uses just the machine screw so far.  I will be making a larger mesh lid from the wire mesh that came with my fly swatter.  It more closely resembles the Noch grid size and may be useful for the longer 6mm flock.

I hear a lot about the danger of the high voltage produced by the ION generators but there is nothing to fear really.  The charge produced is no more dangerous than the static shock we have all received when walking on carpet and then touching a door knob etc.  We must remember that it is AMPS not VOLTS that kill!  The charge these units produce has little to no amperage.

I did include a switch and an indicator light on both versions of the applicator that I built, however it should be noted that even when turned off there is still a charge present until the capacitor either bleeds down or is shorted to ground.  Touching the scenic spike ground wire to the charged screen is all that is required to dissipate the charge.

The power cord, whether it be 120 Volt AC or 12 volt DC will always be in the way to some degree.  A re-chargeable applicator would be OK but I wonder how long it would be before I was pulling out the corded unit because I forgot to re-charge or i ran out of juice?

While, I am not saying you should do this, it is possible to use a non grounded cord on the 120 Volt version and just use the common wire to facilitate grounding of the scenic spike.  My 120V applicator includes a fuse that will blow if there is more than a 1/2 an amp of current flow so little chance of electrocution there.  I also made sure to ground the switch I used as it has a metal chassis.  Everything else on the AC line side is plastic and thus non-conductive.

In both versions I included a power indicator lamp so there is no question as to whether the unit is on or off.

Dave,

It's nice to be able to sit and check email without excruciating pain shooting across my shoulders and into my neck and head.  Hopefully this will not become a regularly recurring thing.  I'm looking forward to seeing what you did for the fly swatter applicator.  Did you use a swatter off the shelf or did you make modifications to the circuit to get more power?

Copper screen

Thanks for the info. The 15kv for the Noch unit I got from listening to an interview with the Scenic Express guy on the Scotty Mason show. I am not sure where he got his info.

The way I am handling changing lids now is I have is one segment of a european style terminal strip that lets me swap leads with different lids. The only problem is it tends to get a lot of flock in it so it needs to be cleaned out each time I switch lids. I have a small one with aluminum screen and a larger screen I made from copper screen. That was nice because I was able to actually solder to it. I am hoping to make a small focused lid out of a plastic funnel.

Chris

Stock fly swatter

I'm just using the stock fly swatter for now to see if I can make it work.  Time has not been something I've had much of the last couple months, but I want to get several projects done in the next few weeks, this being one of them.   

Lids and funnels

Hey Chris,

I had the same idea with the funnel after seeing the Noch focused lid.

I don't know about the 15Kv output ION generator.  If there was one available it would be worth trying out.  I am fairly happy with the results so far with the 7.5-8Kv output generators.  What issues are you experiencing that makes you want to have more power?  Is it just the Toolman syndrome where one never has enough power or is it a quality issue?

I have only experimented with the short flock so I am not aware of the differences between flock length and mesh grid size.  It seems like you change lids often.  Can you explain why you need to change lids and the benefits you perceive from doing so?  I'm not arguing against changing lids or anything, just trying to understand what your experiences are.  Thanks!

Stock Fly Swatter

Dave,

I'm sure you will get it to work.  I have the impression that the stock fly swatters are a bit underpowered for grass application so I am eager to learn how your build performs.

One of the drawbacks to the newer fly swatters is they have a resistor that bleeds power from the capacitor so that over a short time the charge is dissapated.

I plan to remove the "bleed down" resistor and another resistor in the circuit to pump up the power.  If you see a bright flash on the South-Eastern horizon one day soon it could mean that it went horribly wrong! )

I have heard that the AA batteries don't last too long so I may end up hard wiring my swatter.  If that's the case I may up the input voltage slightly to see if I can really make my hair stand on end.  I'll be sure to keep MRH in the loop.  If I zap myself like a bug it will be Mrs. Blue who will post the update, lol!

Holding it too close

To get the effect i need to hold the flocker very close to the surface I am coating. I am thinking with a greater charge I would not have to do that. Also, as I described in my article previous post, I want to change from a charged screen in front to a charged plate in back with a plastic screen. I think this design of the Noch lets it charge the particles more effectively and puts them in a bath between the negative and positive terminals.

I wish now I had ordered more then one of the one I have so I could try it in an alternate design. I don't want to tear down a tool that works.. I need my flocker.. but would love to experiment more. Hopefully MRH will import these ones so I can make a battery one with my revised design.

Chris

Holding it close

I think I have to be around 1" to 1-1/2" from the surface to get good results.  I don't find this to be a big deal so far but I have not done any large areas yet either,  I am sure a stronger charge would be a plus though.

I must have missed your article or if I saw it it has slipped my mind, ( not unheard of).  Is it on the forum or is it coming in a future magazine issue?

Looking forward to seeing what you do with a charge plate in the back of the flock jar.  I would imagine that would require a higher output as the charge would originate even farther from the surface being worked on.  Keep us in the loop as you continue to experiemnt with this.  Thanks!

I think I have to be around

Thats my experience too. I found it to be a hassle for a few reasons. Its hard to see what the grass is doing when you are squinting between the flocker and the ground. Also, it blocks the light. Doing uneven terrain can be more difficult. 

I think making a narrower flocker would be a good idea. That will solve some of my problems.

I don't KNOW a stronger charge would result in a better, more enjoyable flocking experience.. but I would like to try.

Sorry.. misspoke.. errr.. typed.. I meant my previous post in this thread.

Chris

Noch VS Home Built

Hey Chris,

Not sure if you had read this but I thought you might be interested in Joe's comments from another thread discussing the ION generator.

Static Grass Applicator - ION Generator

I agree doing uneven terrain could be a real challenge.  Hopefully the funnel idea is workable.

Finished the Flyswatter

I finished off my flyswatter static grass applicator yesterday and tried it out this morning.  I'll post some pics hopefully later today with the results.  I tried a different way of building it than the youtube guy, but I think I'll try another version, too.  It works OK, but you have to hold it quite close.  I used a tea strainer, and I think that might be part of the problems I have.  Oh, well.  I'll post more later.

Flyswatters

Dave,

Glad to hear you got it built and looking forward to seeing the pics.  I am working on a flyswatter version of the applicator too and it too is differect from the popular youtube model. 

I saw another electronic flyswatter at Canadian Tire that uses two C-cell battereis rather than the AA's like the one I got at Walmart uses, but it was $15!  I don't imagine it would be much different other than the battereis might last longer?

I am interested to see what the modifications I want to make to the circuitry will do for the output power.  I'll be watching for your update and will be sure to share my experiences too.

Not sure if I should post it here, but...

This was my attempt at a home made static grass applicator.  As I said, it does work, but you have to be quite close to the work (and more than once, you'll touch the alligator clip and get a spark, but don't worry, it only scares you the first couple times).  This was pretty much copying the youtube video I saw, with minor modifications.  I think for a second try, I'd use a small cup with a screen, similar to Joe's sour cream container but smaller for those tighter spaces.  Here is a photo of the final product:

 I don't like the tea strainer for this application.  For one, I think the screen is too small for the static grass to fall out of nicely.  That may be a wrong impression, but I had a difficult time getting much out of the strainer.  The other problem with the tea strainer is it is almost too big to get into many places I wanted it to go.  I felt like I didn't have control and probably got more static grass where I didn't want it than where I did.  

I also had a problem with the 4mm static grass being in clumps in the package that I had to break up with my fingers which was quite tedious and not always effective.  I used 2mm and 4mm, thinking this would be the best for N scale, which I think it is.  6mm might be used on occasion for very tall grass, but the 2mm and 4mm I think look right, though it is really hard to catch it in a picture.  Here is the before and after scene:

The front scene is a little blurry to tell, but I think you can tell the grass is standing up at the back.  You can also see static grass on the far side of the track - which I had no intention of doing, it just fell down there.  I kind of like the look, but it wasn't intended and I didn't have any glue mix there to hold it in place.  I'm not a good photographer, so you get what you get.

Anyway, I might experiment further with a screen and a container smaller than a sour cream container to get better control.  Any comments, criticisms or tips appreciated.