DCC = CVP vs NCE vs DGTRX

I used Joe's CVP system. It was pretty user friendly. The throttles fit nicely in a hand with the throttle knob being easily operated with the side of my thumb. They were radio throttles and seemed to have a range problem at the far end of his Coos Bay branch aisle. I believe the reasons Joe switched from there were: 1) the old 2-digit throttles weren't hacking it in Joe's 4-digit address world, 2) the new 4-digit push button engine select throttles must be machined out of a solid gold billet they cost so much, 3) he needed to use more than 8 throttles at a time which would require going to some exotic polling system that would greatly slow down the throttle response.

After NCE got their radio issues under control their throttles are easy to use. But the NCE throttles are freakin' HUGE. Be sure to try before you buy. NCE has some nice features.

I have digitrax. Yup I can drive trains around with it (mostly). Yup the radio throttles have been relatively bullet proof (as long as the batteries are reasonably fresh) even with a single radio receiver in an 1100 sqft train dungeon with 16 dungeon masters in it. I intensely dislike the digitrax DT400 sea-of-buttons throttles. And they seem to remain committed to using arcane interfaces/command sequences whenever possible. Supposedly their duplex radio system (I have the simplex) does away with the need to plug in to acquire engines or do MUing chores. The need to plug in doesn't bother me - I already had the throttle jacks around the room. Digitrax also tends to be a bit cheaper than the other systems. Oh yeah, a Digitrax Chief can program stuff on a programming track while it continues to run the layout - something that NCE isn't capable of. So when my lovely BLI locos eat it and have to be reset during an op session I can set 'em on the programming track and zap 'em with decoder pro to give 'em back their minds. Digitrax prior to JMRI/Decoder Pro/Loco Net slot monitor was a freakin disaster with their arcane throttle slot system seeming to get full and refuse to accept a new loco/throttle pair assignment. A couple of mouse clicks solves that problem now.

If I ever get a pile of money I many swap out my digitrax for a NCE system. But for now finances are being pressed into more pressing matters.

FWIW

Charlie

One minor correction....

NCE's "dogbone" or "hammerhead" throttles are huge - and are also two throttles in one.

They're also massively overdesigned and overfeatured for your ordinary loco-driver during an op session.

You need to get healthy and come down to Joe's again, Charlie - the Cab04e/p throttles that Joe has are shorter and slightly wider than the EasyDCC throttles (I got Joe's RF1300, among other things) and are entirely adquate for getting a train from point A to point B. I believe the "e" and "p" stand for Encoder (free spinning knob) and Potentiometer (from stop to stop). Joe has mostly "p" types although I believe he has one "e" and a hammerhead or two.

Likewise, the EasyDCC T9000E throttle (the real expensive one) has a LCD display and an encoder knob. the RF1300 has the pot - and no way of telling if you've typed in your locos address correctly or not until you crack the throttle. Even so, I'm enjoying mine... I've got one of each.

Easy DCC

I read up a lot on DCC systems, and looked at a lot of people's comments, including a great post by our host Joe on the MR forums.

In the end I went with the Easy DCC system. Some of the valid considerations for the other systems, such as local Hobby Shop support or local clubs, simply didn't apply to my situation. What appealed to me with Easy DCC was the expandability, and it's compatibility, it was purported to work with everything. So far, and I've had mine for over a year, it does.

The fact that a starter set with either a wired or wireless walk around throttle ends you with with 3 discrete cabs is often overlooked by folks. Often the Easy DCC system is compared price wise to a single cab starter system. When you combine that with the higher voltage output of their zonemaster booster, does mitigate the overall cost of the investment. However you'll find that you don't use the head unit as much once you start using a walk around, but I intend on positioning mine near the main yard regardless.

I'm completely satisfied with my decision to go with Easy DCC. Is it better or worse than other systems? I have no idea, as I haven't used them, but I look at those hammerhead throttles that people use, and I'm glad I don't have to.

Al at CVP is a chatty fellow on the phone, but very helpful, and has even sent me extra parts for things that I've misplaced at no charge. I'd strongly recommend that you give him a shout instead of the local shop who is going to charge you a 10% surcharge; if you really want to support the guy, buy him lunch instead.

It's a big decision, so I understand the dilemma!

EasyDCC is a good system

EasyDCC is a good system - one of the top 2 when it comes to ease-of-use, I think. And their wireless is rock solid.

My only concern was the price of their new full-function throttles, and the way they kept restricting consisting in unnecessary ways. Then when my nearly 8 year old and practically obsolete throttles needed replacing (they were increasingly less reliable), I priced replacing them and upgrading to EasyDCC's new dual receiver system so I could go beyond 8 dedicated frequencies for throttles.

I also looked at what an NCE replacement would cost and realized I could save a bunch of money if I changed over to NCE and sold all my EasyDCC stuff. In the process I would get some great new consisting features and be able to easily have more than 8 throttles. So that's what I did.

The fact EasyDCC does not sell through all the typical outlets and you have to order straight from them means there's little price competition, so you pay full retail on everything. With NCE I could price shop and get some great deals on the system and throttles.

I'm happy with my NCE system, and I also liked my EasyDCC system very much. They're both great systems and you will be quite pleased with them most likely. The same is true of Lenz and Digitrax. They all are well built and will give you many years of good service. However, I find the user interface on Lenz and Digitrax to be a little less user-friendly to this guy who has built user interfaces for a living (me), so I'm picky in this one area.

Simple interface...  Brings

On the subject of Hobby shops.  I needed a puller and possibly a quarterer.  Went over to the largest hobby shop in Montreal.  No go. no pullers at all, who is NWSL ?  Does Atlas make that ?

So it is back to Internet shopping for me. 

Simple interface...  Brings

Simple interface...  Brings to mind  watching my wife's first time she handlled the computers mouse. Spacial relation of moving the hand in one plane while the mouse cursor moved in another plane was disconcerting to her at first.  She eventually got it, but it was funny to watch.  So my point is any user interface is just a question of getting use to it. I got use to the DT400 and the buttons and  interface. They do not bother me  at all. 

Aheh...no.

My Uncle runs a PDP-11 in his Garage.  The interface is a terminal keyboard

Now open up your computer.  Chances are, you're running a form of Windows which is a knockoff of the original Apple GUI.

Computers were not accessible to the general public until after the Terminal keyboard got superceded by the GUI+Mouse.

Some user interfaces take far more preparation than others to get used to.  The terminal interface is far more user demanding than the GUI interface - hence why the world uses Windows and not terminals and Code commands.

My Uncle will swear up and down to you that his PDP-11 is just as accessible or even more accessible than information on the Windows GUI platform.  If this was universally true, we'd to talking back and forth in a terminal environment.

If the Digitrax DT-400 was so powerful, Decoderpro would never have been made.  There would be no need whatsoever for it.  And yet we have DecoderPro, which is a GUI interface.  Your DT400 is still back in the days of the terminal and PDP-11s.

The fact of the matter is that the Termianl interface requires you to build up an extensive internal memory of commands and locaitons before you start using it.  GUI interfaces have all the information contained on the screen - you only need to point and click to access it.  Any commands that are available appear on that interface screen as buttons.  You may have to explore the whole interface once, but I compare this to mapping out a field in broad daylight - you can see where you have been and where the next path goes - which is a lot easier than mapping out a mine in picth darkness!!!

I'm excited for the days when we start getting proper throttles in our hobby - you know, throttles that use CURRENT technology!!  But I will have to wait 20 or 40 years for all the "programmer" types [Using the terminal is EASY!]  to get out of the way first.

Wheel puller

Marc,

Now why didn't it occur to me that I could make a puller like that when I needed one?  Thanks for the photo; that's about all the hint I'll need.  let's see, where did I safely put away those taps, so I'd be sure to find them?...

And, Benny, It sounds like you could be a customer of P.I. Engineering.  They make the prototype looking and functioning rail driver controls that interface to V-scale and proto-railroad simulators (www.raildriver.com).

PDP-11!

Just to show you guys how ancient I am, I remember using that system in college to compile statistics for a history paper that showed it was impoosible for the Germans to win World War II despite their advantage of having had large numbers of U-Boats sinking ships bound for England given the US capability of building merchant ships and convoy escorts once it got into the war in 1941. The German's made a big mistake in honoring theair commitment to their Japanese ally and declaring war on the US.

Irv

The reason I like CVP is the

Are you referring to the built in throttles that i saw on the CVP command station? I think you will find that after you get accustomed to using a walk around throttle that you will no longer consider those as potential cabs.

I use digitrax (I am not recommending really, not my point here) I like the UT4 throttle a lot. Its a simple throttle with minimal buttons and a toggle switch for direction (so.. you know which way it is without having to look at it..) I think NCE has something like it too. I don't know about CVP, I think they do too.

Other then doing programming which could probably be better done by computer, I have no use for the big throttles anymore. I relunctantly use my DT400 (like the NCE hammerhead in complexity) if we have an op session at someone's layout and they run out of throttles.

So, I would look to see what kind of simple cab throttles are available for the system you would choose.. If you have friend's with a particular system that could bring over throttles.. I would give that serious consideration. its the only way we can have significant op sessions on some of the layouts in my group.

Chris

re: CVP

I appreciate the comments regarding operating systems guys. The thing is, I'm probably the only person left in the Western hemisphere that's NOT computer savvy. I surf the net, comment on train blogs (rarely), and don't care how they work, just that they do work! Anyhoo, the notion that the CVP command station does have two stationary throttles  is one of the considerations that I am using. Since I intend to order one walk around also, I'm thinking (there I go thinking again!) that I'll place the command station near the classification yard and use one of them to control yard operations, and the second one to run the programming track. From what I have gleaned so far about DCC, there are some glitches with any of the systems, but CVP is pretty much foolproof when programming decoders. The only drawback I see is that all of their equipment is proprietary, so no discounts from the internet discount hobby shops (I use Wholesaletrains.com, and have recently discovered NHShobbies). I have not really made a final decision yet, and am still constructing benchwork, so I figure I have a couple of weeks before I start wiring and will need to make a choice. So, if anyone wants to chime in with opinions and experience with DCC, feel free (just don't get weird and no denigrating systems you don't like).

                             Thanks everyone         Gerry S.

CVP won't do BlueLine decoders

Last I heard, CVP won't program in Direct Mode via the computer interface, which is  the NMRA's very latest standard for programming CVs. Direct mode is how you need to program BLI BlueLine decoders - so you can't use DecoderPro with CVP to program BlueLine decoders.

Now that was back in late 2007 when I was changing systems, and I haven't checked lately.

Other than getting a programming track booster

Other than picking up a programming track booster for the Tsunami's, I haven't come across anything the EasyDCC can't handle, QSI, MRC, etc, which is about a total of 10 decoders that I've installed or run, so not a huge number. However, I don't have any BLI locomotives, so you may wish to call Al at CVP and check on that.

As a (currently) solo operator, it is nice to have the head unit with two cabs. As I mentioned earlier, and Chris echoed, once you have walk around capability, you use it less and less, but on my small test layout I found it convenient to set up a train running, and than run another with the walkaround. 

Where CVP seems to get hammered in conversations is when it's compared against the real basic DCC controller sets that run below $200, but I don't think it's a fair comparision.

Per the price of the CVP system sure, there are no discounts, but if you consider what he charges - $529 for the wireless starter set, and what you get - 3 cabs, one of which is wireless, and a 7 amp booster. The Digitrax Radio Super Chief has a MRSP of $639 (currently $499 at Tony's) and only has one cab and just 5 amps. NCE's PowerPro R wireless is similarly priced, with the same noted drawbacks.

Now I'm not saying run out and pick one up - it's your money, not mine, I'm just relating my experiences with the system. And as I've mentioned before, I haven't been disapointed with my purchase, and I would purchase one again.

I would suggest you continue your research before you buy, and I'd recommend Joe's videos on DCC - this would be an opportune time for you to review them.

I'll place the command

Keep in mind that typically the yard guy will want to stand where they have to couple/uncouple which can be anywhere along the length of the yard.. not always where you would expect or where your command station would be.. certainly it makes more sense for the yard guy to use the command station then a cab operator.. but its still going to be problematic. Clever use of delayed uncoupling can overcome this but its no panacea.

I know I am beating this to death, just a little, but I really consider walk around throttles to be a given for enjoyable model railroad operation.

Chris

I had EasyDCC for nearly 8 years

I had EasyDCC for nearly 8 years and the command station with the two throttles was mounted on one end of the yard (the end we typically used for working the yard).

In that time, we used the panel throttle(s) maybe once or twice as a fallback. However, I suspect the total time on the command station throttles was maybe 10 hours if we were lucky. Wireless is just too danged convenient.

And with the development of Ops Mode programming (programming on the main), it's extremely convenient to walk to where the loco in on the layout and alter a few CV's on the fly. When EasyDCC was designed in the mid 1990s, the stationary programming track was standard practice. Since that time, DCC developments have evolved to make the powerpack form factor increasingly obsolete.

Both the EasyDCC system and the Digitrax Zephyr use this older power pack form factor. The NCE Powercab with its walkaround form factor makes more sense with today's use of DCC. For example, if you buy an NCE Powercab, you can take your command station dogbone down to the club (if they use NCE) and use it as a throttle on the club layout! Try that with your Zephyr or EasyDCC command station - NOT!

NCE control

That's the one HUGE plus to NCE over Digitrax is having the walkaround throttle in the starter set.  However, the only club in my area (that I'm aware of) uses Digitrax, so I'm going with the Zephyr.  I think I'm going to buy the radio module right off the get go and get a couple UT4R's so I've got a couple walkarounds for the kids right out of the gate.  I was thinking about getting the radio starter set, but this is still less expensive and I get two throttles.  But I guess Digitrax isn't even on your consideration list, so I digress.

One thing to keep in mind is

One thing to keep in mind is the NCE is not true walk around. Since its the command station, it must remain plugged in at all times while being used as the command station. Thats still way better then a stationary controller but you can't unplug and move to another station. Like all starter sets, it has a number of limitations. Its worth doing some research to make sure one of the limitations is not a problem for you.

Its been a while since I looked at the chart.. but if I remember (probably not) the zephyr had a little more power and allowed more cabs. However, thats probably not an issue for most people.. just do your research.

Chris

The Zephyr's big plus

The Zephyr's big plus is its 2 jump throttle slots. The jump throttle slots let you connect a regular DC power pack and control a loco with a DCC decoder - and there's two of 'em - so two DC throttles will work with your Zephyr.

If moving slowly from DC to DCC is your desire - and you already have a couple straight DC controllers, you can use them with your Zephyr. Darn clever.

It's more than just this.

There is complete compaitibility in all Digistrax systems that doesn't require that you throw anything away when new technology is introduced. That is a big consideration here as the upgrade path is clear and doesn't require you to start over fro square one. That's an important factor to consider several years down the line, Joe.

I picked Digitrax because that's what the club I belong to uses. Had I not joined that club I would probably still be running DC if I was even involved with the hobby given that my old N-Scale locomotives were inoperable and most likely would not have been replaced. So am I happy with Digitrax? Yes. Would I have selected another system had I joined a club that used something else? Also yes. But I am not sorry I went with Digitrax even though the system is complicated and I haven't learned how to use all the bells and whistles yet. Amd at this point I look forward to upgrading to the new duplex Digitrax system. Between that Decoder Pro there is very little advantage in my scrapping what I have already purchased and converting to another system at this point in time.

Irv

Satisfied Digitrax Owner

I have had my Digitrax Chief (radio) for ten years.  I have DT100R, DT300R and DT400R throttles.  The DT400 is a waste of money and is not necessary with Decoder Pro.  My biggest complaint about the Digitax (simplex) Radio Throttles is taking the batteries out to recharge.  It would be better if you could put them in a charging stand without removing the battery.  I have an 1800 sq ft basement layout with great reception from one central UR-91.  I would like some of the new UT4R throttles, however I am waiting for the new duplex throttles to come out.

I read about people selling their DCC systems to upgrade for additioanl features.  I still have my my original Digitrax Command Station (DCS100) in use.  (I did send it to Digitrax and $50 to have the number of functions expanded.)

Since this is a DCC discussion now...

Does anyone have any information or updates on when the duplex system is coming out?  I did a quick look at Digitrax's website but didn't see anything.

DCC holy wars...

...ya gotta love 'em.  I have operated on Easy DCC, Digitrax, and NCE wireless systems.  The biggest problems seem to be with the Easy DCC system.  It is used on a fairly large layout (800 sq. ft., multi-deck, 8-10 throttles used at a time) and there can be some real throttle response problems.  I have had it take two minutes or so just to acquire a locomotive.  That might not seem very long, but in these days of fast responses it seems to take forever.  I have to keep pushing the "0" key to see when the lights finally go on and off.  Problems like this just have not occurred (not that I have seen anyway) on either the Digitrax or NCE layouts, both of which are substantially larger than the Easy DCC one.

Personally, I own an NCE system and love it.  I got it because the programming was very straightforward using the dogbones, and the Cab 04s are so easy to use for an operator.

My guess is that any of the systems will do fine for a beginner on a small layout.  The important thing when deciding on a system is what will do the job on a similarly-sized layout, with expansion considerations also playing in.  I would recommend reading the posts on the Yahoo groups for the systems you are interested in.  You can get a pretty good idea of what the common issues are.  Join the groups and leave some posts with your questions.

Whatever you do, have fun!

Crossed Over to the Dark Side

I just sold all my Digitrax infrastructure [except the power supply] and got an NCE PH Pro-R wireless system.  I did this mostly because my club uses NCE, plus the fact that their consist management is very easy to use.  My old SuperChief radio communication would sometimes go dead and I'd have to race to the nearest UTP to regain control of my train, this got to be pretty embarassing during op sessions.

Just have lots of plugins!!

My club has a throttle plugin every five feet or so, on a layout roughly 20x25.  It was useful when the IR was down.  Finding the next one or a close one is rarely an issue!