No real world experience

I don't have any real world experience, Chris, with a double decker.  For what it's worth though, anything that I've ever seen printed talks of staggering operating areas so people don't get doubled up, and that's a direction I'm going to try and head in for mine. So I'd suggest the latter of the two - a narrower aisle that is shared with operators on the opposite side. 

Maybe easier to bump behinds than constantly dodge someon else.

Yeah.. the worst is when

Yeah.. the worst is when someone's upper deck cord keeps dragging across your cars on the bottom deck..

Chris

Operator position within yards

Since this is all theoretical, it's very hard to give suggestions. But one thing to consider is not just whether the yards are stacked, but where the operators will stand in the aisle to work the yards. In my experience, operators mainly tend to stand along the body tracks just beyond the yard ladder, at least with manual uncoupling.

That's because they tend to be moving cuts of cars into various tracks and uncoupling the string near the clearance points. (This is for a pure classification yard -- if there are industries along the yard that the operator is also responsible for, he or she will move around more). Once in a while the operators move along the body tracks or the switching lead, but they tend to settle in where they are doing the most work.

So stacked yards may not be so bad if the yard lead and throats are at opposite ends. That will tend to move the operators apart from each other. This is a situation where I will somtimes depart from the pure prototype configuration in order to create a reason for the yard operators to be (mostly) out of one another's way when stacking is unavoidable.

A separate yard aisle can work, too, but if it requires a duck-under it's less attractive. And, of course, the best way to deal with this is to make every reasonable effort to separate the yards as the plan is being developed.

Wireless cabs

Yeah.. the worst is when someone's upper deck cord keeps dragging across your cars on the bottom deck..

Wireless cabs (DC or DCC) solve a lot of these problems.

Byron, thanks for the feedback.

Byron, thanks for the feedback. I am deliberately not posting specific plans because until  I am more committed to a course of action as I don't want to waste people's time on a RFC for a plan that never gets started. Be sure that before I start cutting I will put the final plan up to be appropriately commented! I hope to have two competed plans actually. Track planning costs a lot less then track laying!

There may or may not be a duck under for the upper level with about 60" from floor to bottom of bench, but thats really a seperate issue having to do with whether I choose to utilize under-stair space for a turnback.

I have to give some thought to where the operators would work. The natural choice for each yard would have each operator standing in the same spot. I will give that some thought and maybe see if I can encourage them to work at different ends. There will be industries to switch but that is relatively minor. 

One plus to the mushroom is that a crew dropping a train off will really feel like they are somewhere else. The idea that after your run over the subdivision you end up 15" above where you started is kinda silly..

Thanks,

Chris

Yard co-location

Two yards or busy switching areas right above each other, or across the aisle next to each will mean operators getting each other's way constantly.

At  our club layout, we have a separate narrow aisle along the back of the yard for the yard operators (it's double ended and its size easily supports two switchers), and mainline operators walk down the other side.

There are a couple areas on our layout where there are switching areas on both sides down a particular aisle, but its rare for multiple crews to be working these areas at once, or the same train actually works both locations so there is no conflict. Other locations have either just mainline running or a simple passing siding opposite, or a blank wall (opposite the main yard). Eventually, Levack (which has some interchanges and switching) will be across the aisle from Cartier yard (the second largest yard on the layout), but only a few trains work at either location, and Cartier has no assigned yard switcher. (Neither Levack or Cartier has been built yet on the layout)

So stacked yards may not be

I agree with Byron, but add that yard operators will interfere with each even if there are wide aisles unless the yards are designed so operators aren't usually occupying the same immediate area.  So, have yard leads and throats at opposite ends when the yards are stacked as Byron suggests.

Stacked operators

I'm going to beat up on Joe here a bit - he's got a central location on the Siskiyou Line which tends to get clogged with bodies fairly often.

As you can see above, Roseburg Yard, which has a permanent yardmaster position, is directly across from both Dillard (usually a major 2nd trick mess involving at least two people) and Cottage Grove (where everyone stops to pickup or drop off helpers and water cars as needed). Add to that the entrance to the layout is the door at the bottom right, and the access to the lower deck is the narrow aisle to the upper right, and it gets downright crowded at times - Try putting a yardmaster (1 person) in Roseburg, the Dole Turn (2 people) in Dillard, a Siskiyou Line East from Medford to Eugene going through Dillard (2 people), just about any random train in Cottage Grove (2 people), and a Coos Bay Hauler East (2 people) somewhere in the Roseburg area trying to get to the lower deck....

Stack the decks... not the operators.

But you'll also notice ...

But you'll also notice the aisle is 4-5 feet wide in most of the Dillard-Roseburg-Cottage Grove triangle. I knew the combination of this triangle plus it being the layout room entrance and the passageway to the lower deck would make it a prime candidate for congestion - that's why it has the most generous aisle width of the entire layout.

One could argue that in the worst of times, even that's not enough - but fortunately, we're all friends and it's a good thing we're using wireless DCC! (see photo below)

That photo...

Ah, you found the photo I was looking for!

Now if only ...

... you could fix that beam. I think I still have a crease in my dome from hitting it when I visited in the late 1990s. Yes, I should have taken the steps down, and yes, Joe did warn me.

I notice, though, that while

I notice in the photo that while there are a lot of operators they are not operating two stacked decks at the same time.. where I could end up with two operating areas on each of two sides in a four foot aisle.. that image is three areas on three sides, sort of, and a five foot aisle.

I will need to ponder.

Thanks for the help!

Chris

If you have to stack

If you have to stack operating areas above each other then either slide them a bit so the crews that are operating there don't usually both need to be in the same piece of aisle at the same time or schedule the trains servicing those areas so that you don't have locals in both spots at the same time (and hope that the schedule doesn't go to pieces enough that you end up with locals in both places at once anyway).

Narrow aisles definitely compound this kind of problem. A 48" aisle goes a long way toward making aisles friendlier.

As a last resort you might consider issuing aisle space warrants to the crews in addition to track warrants...

Regards,

Charlie

My own limited.......

My own limited experience is with narrow aisles. You can always be assured that one person will have a 'problem', such as a derailment, just as the other person is trying to get past! Ask me how I know, being on the receiving end of a tirade as the other chap derailed a rake of hopper cars....

Brian

An inconvenient sewer pipe

An inconvenient sewer pipe sticking out of the wall where I thought I could work in a 28" passageway for a mushroom renders that undoable.  Its a 12"x12" footprint starting at 60" off the floor. I knew it was there but I didnt realize it stuck out so far. It reduces the aisle to an unworkable 16" at that spot.

I am kinda dissapointed because the mushroom design had some real advantages. It kept a consistent direction of travel and isolated the operator in Newport. It allows me to raise the floor there slightly to ease yard operation. It would let me create isolated sound effects for Lake Memphremagog. The only down side is the operator would be on the east side rather then the west side which would be less ideal for scenery.

Desipite the disadvantages, one thing I like about island layout designs is they tend to create isolated areas for operators. If you consider the basic 4x8 with a divider in the middle.. operators on each side are not going to be able to see operators who are, presumably, miles away..

I will try to create a diagram of my space to reference when, inevitably, I post another related question.

Chris

A PDF of my space

I decided not to hedge so much. I created a PDF that includes a diagram of my space, and a diagram of the rough layout outline that shows the stacked yards.

http://www.homefry.com/mrr/layoutplanning/ChrisNH_LayoutRoom.pdf

ED: There is an error in the dimensions of the room.. the room is 40 feet long. The other two feet is on the right hand side area dedicated to future washer/dryer use. The fixed work bench is 8' long, the aisle 3' wide, and the area currently slated for appliances and sink 2' deep. I will update at when I go back to work where I can make PDFs.

Regards,

Chris

Ok, from one newbie to another

What about moving the helix? It looks like it would fit at the end where the workbench and CP staging is. I suggest this, as than you could move the St J. yard to  the walkway by the outside door, which would eliminate your congestion problem.

Maybe slide whitefield over to the end of the peninsula, and have the track from St J loop back along the lower level, giving you some mainline run to the helix.

On the upper level, run it out from the helix all the way along the back wall to appear just above St J, than continue your set route to Newport. That back wall run could be just hidden from sight by scenery but still accessible, and due ot the length of the run, could be at a slope, reducing the size of your helix, and allowing you to probably fit staging on top of it still. From a quick calculation, at a 3% straight grade, you should be able to gain over 6 inches on the back run.

Also, you can leave the back of the helix open for maintenance and retrieval.

I hope that makes sense.

A place for my Helix

Hi,

Finding a place for the helix has been a challenge. Not so much the space but in the position relative to the major points of interest. The turn to the right of the Maine Central leaving ST J is a non-negotiable prototype feature and orienting StJ so that the MEC turns correctly and so staging enters the south end of the yard correctly is a huge part of how everything else is laid out.

Now.. some other reasons the helix is where it is

-By having St J, then the helix, then the rest of the lyndonville Sub on level 2, I effectively make the lyndonville sub longer. It really gets 3/5 of the layout.

-By having the train enter the helix as it leaves St J, the operator has time, lots of time, to meander over to their train on the far end of the layout.

-By having Lyndonville, the longest siding that is not a yard on the other end of the helix, its easy to set up meets where one train waits for another to exit the helix. THe Helix represents about 28 miles of the sub. if I remember.

Your second point.. running the main from St J to the helix around the bottom for a lap.. thats not a bad idea. However, I think it would be jarring at the Conn River crossing and difficult to work into the other MEC scenes.

Now, your last point about running along the back of the wall.. thats a great idea. I could reduce one lap of the helix and have the train run out to the end and turn. That puts Lyndonville on top StJ which is preferable from an operator perspective. However, I have two issues with it..

one is that it puts the summit climb on the inside of the curve where the yard and paper mill operator are. I want folks to be able to walk with their train and enjoy this part of the run. 20 feet of uninterrupted forest and mountain. The penninsula is ideal for that.

two is that puts Newport on the back edge of the layout which is not my perferred location.

Still, its something I am pondering and it might be workable. St.J is a hill rising up from the yard with 3-4 storey brick buildings. Easy to hide a train in there..

Finally, the helix will be accesible from the aisle by the outside door. By having a 24" R helix, there is also space inside to get at it. There wll be scenery on top of it.. but not in front of it. I hate inaccessible helixes. MEC will dive under it to a staging loop (only needs 3 trains.. Beecher falls local and RY/YR, and a spare for an extra) by dropping 2 inches as it climbs down into the Conn river valley.

Sorry.. that turned into a WAY long post.. and no pictures! I need to package my ideas up when I have something more concrete and include some photos too!

Chris

Making Friends

And who knows you could end up with a date at the end of the session