Nice space! Charlie had a

Nice space!

Charlie had a nice post explaining how he had his layout on it's own circuit so he flip the breaker off when he leaves the layout room.. it seems sensible advice. My layout is powered through an on-off switch that controls everything including layout outlets for things like my DCC power supplies.. which in turn controls all track power, etc. My layout is plugged into the wall by a heavy duty cord so I can claim it is an "appliance". I do not recommend this approach for a larger layout.

Based on my experience, I would want "shop" outlets and work lights on a seperate circuit from the layout lighting and power. I would want them both to be 20 amp. My current situation has all on the same 15 amp circuit which, sadly, is shared by a refridgerator. When I use the vacuum and the dehumidifier kicks on while the fridge is on.. boom! I am plunged into darkness.

I would consider having at least some cieling lights on the "shop" circuit so you can turn those on and off from the door and provide work lighting to the area. This way you can completely power down the layout and still have light and operate power tools.

An alternative would be to have a single circuit.. but have several outlets controlled by a wall switch so you can power down everything connected to them..

Chris

Electrical needs

Stan,

Since you are starting with a brand new layout I hope you are going to be going with DCC right off the bat. That means that you're probably going to want several plugs (I have two large power strips with on-off switches) clustered in the area that your control and boosters will be. If you can arrange for them to be on their own 30 amp breaker, that's ideal.

 I've got two strips because one controls the layout - and the other I can use while the layout is off for other tasks like soldering and running a computer that has Decoder Pro on it.

 The layout strip has the following (working from memory) plugged into it:

 EasyDCC CS2 controller, 2 Booster3s (which are more than 3amp I believe), a programming track power booster, the wireless receiver, and a couple of 12v DC wall-warts that combine to power my yard tortoises. I've also got a PSX-AR autoreverser but I don't believe it has it's own power supply. One of these days I may add another Booster3 to the equation.

So that's 4 or 5 wall warts, which take up a lot of space on a strip, and a couple plugs for the MRC 16v AC power supplies for my Boosters. All effectively off one wall plug. I didn't have an option to rewire the garage, so both power strips are actually fed off a ceiling 2-plug fixture that normally would supply power to a garage door opener. This is why I use the 3+ foot industrial power strips.

Okay, that's power central.

I also recommend having a few spaced around the layout room (maybe 12 feet apart or so) for use during construction.

Check with a professional electrician

Having the circuit described above on a 20 amp breaker is not the answer.  The reason the breaker is tripping when your refrigerator, vaccuum and dehumidifier are all running is that the ampacity of the wire is being exceeded.  Putting a 20 amp breaker on the circuit would be dangerous.

In Canada, by code a refrigerator requires it's own 15 amp circuit.  The dehumidifier would probably warrant another separate 15 amp circuit.

Using higher rated circuit breakers without having installed wiring with the ampacity to handle the load is a fire waiting to happen.

Always check with a qualified electrician who is familiar with the codes for your country and area.

By 20 amp circuit I mean all

By 20 amp circuit I mean all of it.. not just the breaker. When I get around to rewiring I will be installing new 12 ga. wire, outlets, and switches that are within 20 amps. Until then it would be illegal (and dangerous) to put in a larger breaker.

The fridge will be on its own circuit when I am done sharing the line with nothing more then a few network devices in the same area. I didnt mean to recommend putting a 20 amp breaker on a line with 14ga. wire and 15 amp rated hardware.

My point was just that one can hit the top of a 15 amp circuit in a layout room pretty quick.

Chris

Yes, you want to talk to a Pro

Yes, you want to talk to a professional electrician.

Here's some considerations.

I have a mushroom layout that's 1100 sq ft equivalent (if it was all one deck) and the layout itself is powered by one 15 amp circuit, but the layout lighting takes four more 15 amp circuits.

Today with compact florescents instead of low wattage incandescents, I could probably get by with two 15 amp circuits for the lights instead of four.

The reason why the layout doesn't take much is because the track voltage is only 14V, not 110V. Because of Ohm's law, as you lower voltage, available amps go up. My one 15 amp 110V circuit has an current capacity of over 100 amps at 14V.

My layout has 1200 feet of track total, and a 360 foot mainline (includes the lower deck branch line run). The layout has six 5 amp power districts, for a total of 30 amps at 14V. I still have over 70 amps of un-tapped capacity at 14V!

Oh yes, and I also have a 1 amp tortoise power supply for staging, but each tortoise uses a few milliamps, so that's not a problem - and that 1 amp is at 12 V - again it's against the 70 amps that's left so not a problem.

It's your lighting that will be the concern, since it's more likely to take quite a bit of current. And with a mushroom, you *have* to light the lower deck or it will be dark as can be under there.

The other consideration will be power tools used during the layout construction and maintenance. I have one extra 15 amp circuit (total of 6: 1 for layout, 4 for lights, 1 for power tools) run around the layout room so using power tools is easy.

I had a professional electrician install a separate large sub-breaker in my main panel and then he installed a sub-panel in the layout room with the six 15-amp breakers in it for the various circuits I've listed.

 Thanks for your input

Thanks for your input everybody, I knew I would get some good info here! Funny, I didn't consider running power tools during construction, in my mind my layout is complete!  LOL

Jeff, a big "Yes" to starting off with DCC, I just can't see switching over from DC to DCC sometime in the future.... too many headaches!

Joe, you wrote "the layout itself is powered by one 15 amp circuit, but the layout lighting takes four more 15 amp circuits.... plus one for power tools"  WOW! Good thing I asked, although your layout is considerable larger than mine will be, I would not have guessed a total of six circuits for your empire.  

Thanks again,  this is exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

Stan

PS   My brother is a  journeyman  electrician.... he should come in handy.     :O)

local code

Per the number of outlets along the walls, local code may dictate that for you. Generally they never want to see an extension cord over 6 feet, so an outlet wired up every six feet works out great.

If you're not doing the work yourself, and/or not comfortable with the work at hand, do contact an electrician. They're expensive but worth it. Right now, at least in our area, labor and material costs are very low.

I think the lights on their own circuit at the very least would be a good idea, and I like the thought of them on a dimmer switch.

Code

That is true, however that means an outlet every 12 feet rather than every 6 feet.

Chris, I didn't mean to suggest you would place a 20A breaker on a 15A circuit.  I was however concerned that someone who didn't know better MIGHT get the wrong impression from your previous post.  You cleared that up now.

What Joe did for his layout is the way to go!  As he says the layout is not the large draw, it's the layout lighting that sucks the power.  Having a circuit for tools is a good idea too.

If you feel you have the knowledge, skills and tools to preform your own electrical wiring, do so.  Just be sure you have a permit and an inspection so you will have insurance if there is ever a problem.

The lighting is the biggie

HOw are you going to light the layout space? FIgure # of fixtures times the power per fixture(watts). Divide the total lighting watts by 120V to get the current the lighting will take. Multiply that by 1.3 for a safety margin. Then figure out how many 15 amp circuits you'll need for the lighting. Err on the side of more breakers/circuits rather than fewer. Allow a separate 15A circuit for DCC boosters, on layout lighting, wall warts for tortoise power, etc. If you have shop tools then a separate 15A breaker hooked up to wall outlets is a good idea. Don't plug a skill saw or saber saw into the same outlet that runs the DCC system!

I'd advise against leaving the ceiling open. It will likely become an ongoing source of dust in the layout room Dust is not your friend and certainly not the friend of model train layouts. I'd recommend drywall on the ceiling rather than accoustic tiles. Pain all drywall before beginning construction - walls sky blue, ceiling either blue or white.

One switch to turn off the wall outlets and the train power in the room is a good idea (dont leave power on the tracks while the room is unoccupied).

The best way to wire the ceiling lights is to know where the layout will go and where the aisles will go then figure out where the lights will go and put boxes in the ceiling at those points. Next best is to have a few designated boxes in the ceiling and run conduit to the light fixtures.

This describes a sort of extreme electrical configuration. If you can afford it great. If not then do what you need. But DO figure out how much power the layout room lighting will take and make sure there are enough breakers to meet that need.

Cheers and good luck (and take pictures while you're doing this and post 'em so we can see what you're up to!)

Charlie

That is true, however that

You're thinking only in one direction; six feet also means out into the room. Note that I'm not quoting code, simply making an observation.

For what it's worth, I'm running the electric myself in my future room. Outlets are run every 4 feet, 14 inches above the floor in most places, above workbench height where appropriate. I've run a sub box, as mine is no where near the main breaker of the house. Currently I have two 20 amp circuits running in there, one for lighting and one for power.  The sub box is for my own safety and convenience when working on it.

Hope this helps!

Code

The code, (at least the Canadian Electrical Code) does not deal with distances into the room, just along the wall.  The Canadian code says:

Rule 26-702(2)(3)(4)(5) & (6) require plugs in living spaces to be located so that it is not possible for an electrical appliance to be more than 1.8M or about 6 ft. from a plug outlet when it is located along the wall.

Note this measurement is not a radius, you must measure into corners.

Hey blue

original text deleted. (I dont' want this to become like other forums).

The OP might want to consult their local code just to be sure that they comply with their local ordinances.

If this is a basement room

If this is a basement room then outlets may need to be located at a higher level in the room then might otherwise be true. Some areas mandate this due to flooding worries. You also have to have GFC outlets more then likely.. these are the ground fault ones that have the little button like you find in your kitchen or bathroom if you have a newer house. This will cause them to trip should they get shorted by moisture. Fortunatley, you only need one GFC on a circuit to protect the whole circuit. The other outlets get the little "protected" stickers.

Your electrician will know all this.. but things to consider when planning.

No worries.. it was worthwhile to clear it up.

Chris

Hey Scarpia

Indeed!  As I posted above...

Because there are members from ALL OVER THE WORLD on this forum I make a point of always mentioning that the code I am quoting is CANADA's code.  While I know the Canadian code very thoroughly, it does not match the codes of other countries.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here so I sent you an email, just in case you wished to finish your thought in private???

Surprisingly

Much of the American electrical code matches Canada.  Our local county codes in Maryland also mandate 12 feet max between outlets in wide open spaces, but also say that if you are working a bedroom you need a minimum of one outlet in each wall.  Hence why my bedroom closet has an outlet in it.

For basements in flood prone areas, you may also need exterior grade boxes (usually gray plastic) waterproof conduit, and waterproof joints between conduit and box.  There is also usually a height off the floor requirement (I think ours is 24 inches) and the GFCI already mentioned.

That said, onc eyou know code, you can generally run the wire and install boxes yourself.  Just get a electrician to help you do the first two or three, an dhave them make the final box conncetion.  Personally, a sub panel is also something I'd do.

Yes they are fairly similar, surprisingly!

This is one of the differences in the codes.

In the Canadian code, plug outlets are prohibited in closets, cupboards or cabinets except for special cavities built for specific, heating and non-heating type appliances.

However, in a  bedroom the circuits must be protected by Arc Fault breakers, not to be confused with Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters, (GFCI's).

Also the Canadian code specifies instances where a plug outlet is not required:

Wall areas less than 36" wide are not required to have an outlet.

Rule 26-712(c) says do not include spaces occupied by:

Doorways

Windows which extend to the floor

Fireplaces

And other permanent instsallations that limit the use of wall space.

This differences are for the most part, slight but different enough that one must follow the code for ones country and area to the letter.

I actually find the US National Electrical Code, (at least what I know of it) to be a little more robust than Canada's code.

Thanks Again Everybody!

Thanks again everybody for all this great info!

Fortunately I already have a rather large sub panel in my basement, just begging for additional train room circuits. I just need to determine how many I need. I am fairly familiar with house wiring, and have an electrician brother who lives one town away. My questions were not so much to do with "how" to wire, but rather "what" to include and "why", specifically with respect to model railroads. But don't get me wrong, I love this feedback, it's all good!


I’m thinking of 6 circuits for my train room:
1 for general room lighting
2 for layout lighting
1 for general use wall receptacles (tools)
1 for DCC
1 for “the layout”

As I don’t actually have a layout plan of any kind yet (other than HO logging, double deck, “shadow box” style) I don’t know if 15A or 20A layout lighting circuits will suffice. At this time I have no idea how many lights I’ll need (or type of light for that matter), therefore no way to calculate circuit size. I’m was thinking of using fluorescents under the decks to light the layout, mostly to prevent excessive heat buildup in the room, but I sure would like to dim the lights. I’m thinking now of using Joe Fugate’s  low wattage incandescent lamps under the decks.  

Another thought occurred to me when considering heat accumulation in the train room due to extra bodies or lights. Has anybody ever ventilated their rooms with exhaust fans?  (I assume blowing out of the train room into the rest of the house as opposed to into the room). I live in Vancouver BC, and although our house has central AC (rare in these parts), I thought a few additional air exchanges would be a good idea. Any thoughts?

Stan   

So the Canadian Code is all that matters in your instance...

Stan,

It sounds like you have a good handle on the wiring between you and your brother and since you already have a panel with space in it that will work for you it is just a matter, as you say, of determining what you really need for circuits.

You could go ahead with the six circuits you describe but you could scale it back slightly, IMO.

Unless the "general room lighting" is going to be a lot of fixtures, I would think you could combine the room lighting and general use wall receptacles on one circuit, (depending on how many outlets and lights you need to install).  The lights would typically not be enough of a load to be a problem when you use a power tool.  Keep in mind that we seldom use more than one tool at a time unless we have helpers running tools.  If that is likely you will want to take that into account too.  For power tools in my shop, I like to use split duplex receptacles wired in the same fashion as kitchen counter plugs so that each outlet in the duplex receptacle is on a separate 15A circuit.  If you think you will need it, this is a good way to go, IMO.

I think you can easily combine the DCC circuit and the layout circuit without issues.  One 15A circuit to handle all of the low voltage DCC and layout accessories should be plenty.

Using two circuits for the layout lighting is probably a good idea.  If you find in your planning that the two 15A circuits is not quite enough I would add another 15A circuit rather than going to 20A breakers and wiring.

I think you could likely get away with four circuits but it depends on your specific loads so I would also check with your brother and see what he thinks.  The bottom line is that it's easy to install more power capacity than you need before hand, but if you find you don't have enough, it's much more difficult to add circuits once the room is nearing finished.  Let us know how it's coming along!

World Wide Web

no mater where you live just find your country or state or Island or where ever you live and goggle Electrical Building Codes. they are all on the internet. you just need to do a search for all the answers so now we can get back to the original subject of New Layout room someone needs more than just electrial help and I think he has the electral part down.

The original subject?

Gee Dan, I thought we were discussing the original subject all along.  Good thing you cleared that up for the OP and the rest of us!

RR Room Half Complete

Hi Everybody,

Well, with help from everybody here, my 12' x 30' RR Room construction is well under way. As part of an entire basement renovation, my contractor is very happy, although somewhat puzzled, to help me build the perfect layout room. 

So far for the RR Room alone, he's had to move a furnace and hot water tank, remove and re-run ducts, remove a wall, build a new wall, waterproof the foundation, reframe walls around the foundation, put in pot lights, wall receptacles and four additional 15A circuits for layout lighting etc. .... and more....  phew....

Still have lots to do.  So with that in mind, is there anything special that you folks out there think should be installed now before the drywall goes in? Backing, blocking, something electrical perhaps? Nows the time to do it... what are your thoughts?

Stan

I have 2 each 20 Amp Breakers

I have 2 each 20 Amp Breakers and then another 20 amp Breaker for the lights. there are four rooms in my Basement and each is Wired the same for a total of 8 breakers and one new main that kills the whole basement. then there is My shop with 2 each 50 Amp breakers for the power tools which the table saw is 440 Volts 3 phase. After my last home being underpowered with me blowing circuit breakers every other day. For my new home I hired an electrician and had my basement completely rewired when I added the wood shop on the back side of the basement.

I was going to build the railroad in my basement but then I had the train room built and thank goodness It was 50 feet from the house when the lightning fire took it so I'm back building it in the basement again but, anyway If you have the house or basement rewired hire an electrician and have him put a new breaker in the train room or just outside the door and have minimum 20 amp breakers in they cost the same as 15 amp breakers. have one installed for the left side of the room and one for the right side and have him put 4 plug sockets for each one and then have a separate 15-20 amp circuit for the over head lights and go for the heaver gauge wire to handle the Amps. Depending on what kind of money you have to do the up grade weather you have Florescent or Track lights or just incandescent (Florescent are the cheapest to run) I have both so in one room is the florescence and the second room is set up for track lights. The second room is the largest and will be double deck so I wanted separate lighting for each level. You need to decide what lighting your going to use and then get the circuits put in. then later you can add the lights It doesn't take long and you don't really need that much.

Dan

Don't forget to tell your electrician you want 20 amp

breakers before he runs the wireing.  Here in my town at least, the code calls for #10 wire if you want 20 amp breakers but only #14 for 15 amps.  If your electrician runs #14 wire, the building inspector will tell you to put in 15 amp breakers.

 Thanks for the input guys.

Thanks for the input guys. The 14 gauge wiring has been run and the 15 Amp breakers installed. I should have lots of available power with six circuits in the layout room:

1. general room lighting (pot lights)

2. general wall receptacles

3. & 4.  layout lighting (2 circuits at 15 A each)

5. DCC circuit (15A)

6. layout electrical (15A)

The insulation went in the walls today. Next week comes the drywall. Man... this is getting exciting!

Stan