Good work

Nice to see som eprogress.  I'm following your tree attempts with interest - pine trees in south Louisiana where my layout is set look more like yours then the western pines so often commercially produced.  Keep up the good work.

Looking good, Chris!

Good to see the progress and that you'll be getting some more time, hopefully.  Keep us posted.

Love The Detail Explainations

Great looking start to what I am sure will be a fantastic sceen.  Love the detail explantation of what and how you are doing always can use someone elses ideas. 

I thnk the trees look good Chris

I think the trees look good - but I wonder if they're almost too full? Looking out my window, I can see a fair amount of clear sky through the ones near me.

Trunk size may not be relevent, as long as they are not in the "front row". The extra thickness may not be noticable if they're in the back.

Looks great!

The only thing I would say is too not make your trees too perfect.  Nature tends to beat them up a bit.  So far I think you are doing great!

Thanks for all the positive feedback!

Thanks for all the positive feedback!

Yes, I completely agree. Its the biggest issue I have with my early trees. Right now they are still too much of a fir and not enough of a white pine. I have a few things to try to bring them more in line with the prototype:

-Use thinner wafers. The current wafers are thick for N. Its problematic, this stuff is not easy to cut that way and still leave a pleasing branch structure behind. I am working on that.

-Space the wafers further apart. I may try without the small spacer wafer shown in the video. That was to provide depth and shadow to the finished model but I think it works against me here. You can see my attempt at this on one of the "under construction" trees in the spray booth image..

While I can work on the space between branch clusters, I think the problem within branch clusters is more problematic..

When I look at the protoype the pine needle structure provides the tree with a certain airy look. I am hoping to get some of that look by using some flocking. The 2mm flocking will be 6" in N.. kinda big.. but might work used in moderation. However, it still won't give that airy look. I think, though, as long as I am using furnace filter and foam I am going to somewhat opaque trees.

Part of my issue with the large trunks is they make the branches seem smaller. I am hoping that with a smaller trunk the branches will seem longer.

I agree. Once I have the technique down I will work on cutting pieces out more. One thing about this pine is it tends to spread out more and have branches lower when its in the open. Trees that are left standing from inside a forest that has been cut.. like when a ROW is cut into a forest.. will have most of the greenery toward the top and may be missing branches on one side.

One problem is the furnace material itself.. its gets skewered by the trunk so it can be an issue making those classic "all the branches on one side" pines I see around..

Chris

Remember the basics

Chris:

When it comes to modeling a specific tree species, it helps to search out tree silhouettes and then analyze the differences.

For instance, here's your typical fir tree silhouette (represented by a Balsam fir):

Notice how much more sparse the foliage is, and how the overall shape of the tree is more like a box and less like a perfect cone. The top also tends to be bushy in all directions.

Based on these silhouettes, the best method for making an Eastern White Pine will be the bottle brush method, not the furnace filter method. I'd be deliberately sparce and uneven with how I placed the bottle brush bristles, and I'd deliberately trim the spun tree armature so it was more boxy and scraggly on top. I'd also first hit the tree with a light dusting of coarse ground foam to get some clumpy foliage - then I'd add a thicker layer of fine ground foam over that to simulate the tiny pine needles.

Working up the tree, also notice you get a wide set of branches layer, then one or two very narrow sets of branches, then a much wider set of branches again. If you did try to model this tree using the furnace filter method, you'd want to skewer on a larger furnace filter pad, then skewer on 1 or two very small pads, then skewer on a much larger pad, back to 1-2 very small pads, etc.

Also, when doing furnace filter trees, don't cut the pads into ovals - the secret is to cut the pads into STAR shapes with points. This creates a much more realistic "conifer" branch look to your trees, instead of just an amorphous mass of foliage, which will look rather non-descript - which is essentially worthless if you're aiming to model a *specific species* of tree.

By carefully observing tree silhouettes and realizing you can deliberately shape and form branches more appropriately, you can better nail a certain key tree species even when you're trying to model a specific region.

Thanks for the insight Joe!

Thanks for the insight Joe! I will give your tips a try. I like how the silhouette illustrates the differences between the tree types. It makes the point rather strongly. Perhaps I print some pics on regular paper then outline them in marker. Even better.. perhaps I can scale them to 1/160 to get the proportions right!

I have found cutting furnace material into stars (or anything, for that matter..) very challenging. I don't know why. I think I need to cut out some templates to use.

I used the coarse followed by the fine foam, sparsely, on some super trees and found it made me think of Red Pines with their "clumps" of pine needles but the super-tree trunk was too thin and perhaps too much like a decidious tree. I will give it a shot on my furnace pines.

I want to give the bottle brush method a try.. I am concerned that the trunk will not look very realistic. I should probably make a few before assuming too much. I should have a chance this weekend. I will watch that video again tonight since I have baby duty again.

I am definitely going a little overboard for a newbie with my tree-fever, but given my modeling interests, I am going to have to master the techniques now or later, or pick a different region to model!  There is a reason the Maine Central used a pine tree for a logo..

Chris

making trees

I found that making trees involves some learning and skill developement.My first few fir trees were quite ugly but I kept practicing and they now look quite decent.keep working and refining and you will get trees you are happy with.

Caspia trees?

Chris - Looking at Joe's outlines, have you looked at caspia style trees?

A sample side by side

http://www.railroad-line.com/discussion/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24724

Steve

Caspia trees are very cool..

Caspia trees are very cool.. I would like to play with that technique at some point. I am concerned it will not scale well to N.. but its worth a try. Thanks for the link!

Right now I am trying to find a method that will make satisfying trees in quantity. Because the distance to the backdrop is small on my layout and, indeed, in most my designs for the next layout (either Down East Maine or Northeast Kingdom Vermont..), my trees need to be a little above the usual background tree. At the same time, I need to be able to produce many trees quickly.

Chris

Caspia trees ...

Caspia trees are old school and without some ground foam on the foliage, they have the wrong texture.

Plus Caspia trees are very work intensive - and therefore best for locations where you need just a sparse forest or a few "special" trees.

And you'll need to cover the caspia "petals" in fine ground foam for the foliage to have the right texture - otherwise the foliage will look grossly out-of-scale in close up photos - especially in N!

More Caspia trees ...

The trees in the photo below are furnace filter trees. You'll never get caspia trees to make a forest that looks like this:

Granted, not all conifer forests look like this, but caspia trees need a lot of work if they're to look right - so they're very labor intensive. And to get the proper conifer small needle foliage texture, you need to cover the caspia sprigs with fine ground foam.

Continued Improvement

This tree had already been constructed but not trimmed or foamed when I made my blog post. I had already been starting to provide more air in between the wafers.

The trunk is still to thick, the branches are still to short and the wafers too thick. The trunk color is too dark. But.. headed in the right direction.

btw- how about that pot-topper material at the base? Tear a little off, put it around the tree, and instant ground cover. With a little airbrushing that stuff has real potentiall..

Chris

Much Improved!

That tree is really starting to get there for sure.  The main thing I noticed, and you mentioned is the trunk does not taper quite enough.  Sure the branches could be longer and the wafers perhaps a little finer but I think it's looking really promising.  Good job!

Keep us poseted on your progress.

What is that "pot-topper" stuff anyway?

Lightning

Here's a thought:  My first impression when seeing this latest tree photo was that it was a lightning-damaged tree.  I found myself looking at the top for black burns.  So there's the rationalle for the thick trunk.

Has anyone any experience with modelling lightning-damaged tress?  Or re-growth after forest fires?

Pot topper

Its a material that is put on top of pots to simulate grass. Its available at Michaels for a two or three bucks, less with one of their 40% off coupons. You can find it in the same section they have clay pots. I remember because my toddler dumped some of the pots on the floor. Fun. Anyway.. its been making the rounds of some of the message boards, and it was discussed on the model railcast show a while back. Its a poor man's alternative to silfor.

This guy has a some pics of it:

http://ardleybridge.fotopic.net/c1501517.html

I am hoping to use it in a variety of places where one might have used silfor or artifical fur.. but it needs to be painted and trimmed. The backing needs to be cut back. It will be interesting how thin I can maje the bottom without losting the grass. It could probably be placed upside down in glue then have the backing trimmed off like some folks did with the artificial fur.

Once I get to the ground cover part of my scene I will post my experiences with it and what works or doesn't work in N scale.

Chris

Pot Topper

Chris,

Thanks for the explanation and the link!

I just bought 3 pot toppers

I'm going to play around with it.  Definitely need to get some different colours in there as its a little monochrome, but we'll see how it works out. 

Nice Tree!

Hi Chris,

You've made a great looking tree, and the colouring to my eye looks very pleasing, like a tree catching lots of sunlight.  

Something to consider in the furnace filter vs caspia tree debate, is length of time to construct a tree. Joe has already brought this up, but I wanted to chime in and say he's absolutely correct is saying that trees made from caspia branches take an inordinate amount of time to construct. I think they look great, but man... to make a forest would be the death of me!

I've attached (I hope) a couple of really bad photos of my "experimental" micro layout to show the caspia branch trees I made a few years ago. These were the first trees I had ever attempted, so with a bit more work and practice might actually look okay. But I spent HOURS on these, and I think they need much more caspia to look reasonably full, so add a few more hours to that total...

When I get started on my layout.... I'm going furnace filter all the way!

Stan 

Nice trees

Those are pretty nice trees, although if I'm allowed one quibble - the trunks, in the photos at least, appear to be much too smooth.

But I definitely like the foilage.

The trunks actually have a

The trunks actually have a fair bit of texture (I use a nail board and rough sand paper..) but I do agree that they appear smooth. I am not doing so well with the dry brushing on the small N-scale trunks. The color ends up being too regular. Its something I need to work on. I want to find a way to give the appearance of good bark texture while still allowing me to make them fairly quickly.

I need a can of "irregular bark color spray" that sprays on a mottled grey color with occasional flecks of green!

Chris

Have you dry brushed before?

Chris, have you dry brushed before? It can be maddening, as to do it properly the brush is almost completely empty, and it takes time to build color.

That would be mind numbing work on N scale trees. Might I suggest

1. rolling the trunks instead of using a brush. Dampen a paper towel with paint, and roll the trunks by hand back and forth until the color builds.

2. use a darker wash, instead.

Also don't forget contrast issues. When I was modeling 28mm and 15mm figurines, color and paint would look perfect up close, but the second you step back 2 to 3 feet the details would get lost. Models painted with what looked like very extreme contrasts actually looked better from the same distance, as the contrast made things stand out. I wonder for an N scale tree, a more dramatic contrast than what you're expecting might be needed for it to show up.

I have dry brushed before..

I have dry brushed before.. but the issue I am running into is very small amounts of relief to work with. In contrast, miniature metal figures I have dry brushed in the past have very strong relief. So, not only is it hard to get the effect, but its too darn slow to be making hundreds or thousands of trees..

Part of the problem is I needed to dry brush enough to cover black with grey. So, rather then accenting with the dry brush, I was really coloring the majority of the trunk.

My most recent effort was to spray the trunks grey and apply an india ink wash. First try didnt work out. I am going to try a darker wash then dry brush with a lighter grey for highlights. Because the base color is grey, I dont have to worry about missing spots.

I like your idea about rolling the trunk. I am going to try that next time I am making trees. That sounds fast, plausible, and easy. GREAT idea! I am wondering if I do that with a thick paint if I can even get a little bark texture the process by using a scrungy material to roll on..

Chris