Not just in railroading.....

I see some of the same things in my work as a electronics tech for a state police agency.

People find out where you work and they will often bombard me with questions about police work, radar, speeding tickets, law questions, radio questions, will I fix their CB? can I get them a special deal, or give them lights. Volunteer FD and rescue folks assume Ill fix their stuff for free, or install extra lights for them.

I grew up the son of a state trooper so I knew about this all my life. Some of its sheer curiosity about the work, some out of ignorance while others THINK they know about things.

Most of the time I dont mind the questions, as Ive found with many railroaders, often its a enjoyable conversation when its not 5000 questions about the smallest details. Ive found it best to often talk about anything BUT railroads, they will figure out your not a nut job and then the conversation will relax.

And for the record, I can NOT fix speeding tickets.....

Lost opportunity

I actually lost an opportunity to work for CSX because I listed a leadership position in my live steam hobby club on my resume... WHAT ???  Just because I have a model train hobby, I am a foamer? I mean, they laughed at that and focused on that one item. They talked to me about how guys like me spend more time taking pictures than getting the job done.... What safety risks we are and so forth. Forget that I am highly educated and understand the business from an operations and a mgmt/leadership side of things....  It really felt like a group of children were interviewing me and poking sticks as my bloated rotting corpse, extremely childish... Oh yeah, I probably have 50 railfan photos that I have actually taken over 20 years and most of them have my kids in the picture.

My whole experience tells me a lot about the railroad business in general. It tells me there is a real disassociation between the troops and various levels of management. It also explains a little bit about the perception of the railroad not caring about the one car per day or per week customer. 

On another note, my neighbor is an engineer for CSX and he kids me a lot. He always asks me, "what are you doing? Playing with your toy trains???"  He is just kidding me, but it is all part of the culture. He actually is in the closet, if you will. He looks at my models and says, "wow, I was just on that engine. That looks so real... or something to that effect." He is always wanting to buy some of my models and use them as static displays on his wall... That tells me that Model Railroading is a form of art and some artists are better than others. I truly believe he looks at my modeling and is a little jealous.

All in all, I am glad I never did work for the railroad. I too was afraid I would not want to look at another train when I got home which is probably accurate.

So, I know I did not really answer your questions, but I can at least reify your observations about real railroaders, some of the cultural values/beliefs and my concerns about having become a real railroader.

As we have discussed many times before, people tend to model what they remember growing up or at a certain point in their life. I like the big SDs and GEs of the 80s and 90s because I remember how they really shook the ground on point of a heavy train.  Yet, I can always appreciate a nice steam era scene. In fact, the guy that models civil war railroading is a favorite of mine here on the forum.

My Gripe

The only gripe I have is the absorption of the NKP by the NS; it should have been the other way round - - LOL! When I was railroading, it was family. I model memories of days gone by and what it would have been like had the Fallen Flag lived on other than in my memories and those of all the other Nickel Platers out there. 

As for family, I have a proud heritage that translates to the hobby:

• Grandpa Shestrik - BaggageMaster at Cleveland Union Terminal
• Grandma Shestrik - Coach cleaning crew for the New York Central - Cleveland
• Uncle Shestrik (Tony) - Railway Postal Clerk for the New York Central - Cleveland
• Horace Calhoun (father) - #3 on the Nickel Plate Road Cleveland roster and local union head
• Uncle Edward (Kudal) - #9 on the Nickel Plate Road Cleveland roster
• Cousin Sam (Lograsso) - Switchman on the Nickel Plate Road Cleveland roster E55th St. yard
• Me - Clerk/Caller on the Nickel Plate Road Cleveland roster E55th St. yard

I could go on and on about all the rest of the individuals that were part of the railroad "family" who cared for and looked out for the sons and daughters who eventually came to work for the road. Even if it just came down to the NYC or NKP Lionel trains that ran under the Christmas tree, railroading gets in your blood and makes you part of what made and continues to make America great. 

As for modeling, being a railroader gives you perspective on what realism looks like; from trees that are not straight to non-existent ballast on sidings to piles of scrap alongside a yard office. It represents the world as it is and was and it is beauty in the eye of the layout beholder.

getting a job

Strangely enough, I had somewhat the opposite experience.  Shortly after we moved to Northern Ontario in 1974 I visited the Ontario Northland dispatcher's office at Englehart, looking to scrounge a timecard or rulebook.  Quite unexpectedly came away with a job as a trainee operator ("telegrapher" in fact, although the keys and sounders were long gone by then).  It may have had something to do with the fact that the Chief Dispatcher, while not a modeller, had a passionate love for railroading.  Two or three other operators and one engineman I knew were model railroaders, and I don't recall being heaped with scorn for my hobby - perhaps because by then I was "one of us" to the other employees.

If I hadn't by then been committed to pre-1930 West Coast logging and the CPR, I definitely would be modelling the ONR in the late 1970s - one-car local passenger trains and all.  In fact, when LifeLike came out with the Proto 1000 RS2 in ONR green and yellow, I just had to get one, even if the real 1300s were RS3s (I think - no one ever called them anything but 1300s, and I doubt that you could have found an employee who cared).

David

I'm Out of the Closet

But I frequently get the hushed conversations about model railroading. Some guys like to weather cars, some like to draw track plans, some want to build something for their kids, but they often don't want anyone to know

Applies to other fields too

I have been told that being a historical re-enactor is grounds for  dismissal from academic history positions.

However, the military does not seem to have similar prejudices. They welcome re-eactors, military modelers, war gamers and gun enthusiasts. All part of increased professional development I suppose.

Choo-Choo mentality.

Working on park railroads, there are many adults that will not ride the train with their kids.  Rules have to be posted requiring that an adult accompany the kids.  The feeling seems to be that trains are kids toys.  This is what I call Choo-Choo mentality.  Everything from Thomas the Tank engine to a 10,000 foot inter-modal train is a Choo-Choo.

When I interviewed for the Santa Fe, my resume was a horror of restoration and park railroad jobs, except for a service letter on NS stationary from working for their steam program.  Otherwise, I probably would have been master mechanic of a tourist railroad in Flint, Michigan (Big fish in small pond).  But, since I had survived an inning of major league railroading, I was allowed to join team Santa Fe as a switchman (small fish in Big pond).  Joining the Santa Fe was like starting over.  Class 1 railroading is another world.

There are a lot of model railroaders working for BNSF.  The thing is that these folk regard the hobby as a hobby and the job as a job.  We can't redefine the job in hobby terms, and there are very few of us that want to redefine the hobby according to the job.  There are interesting parts of the job that are not making it over to the hobby.  I have been campaigning about simulating "stretch braking" on a model railroad but there is not much understanding of the concept.  I also make some railroad moves on a model operation that go against model railroad tradition.

Yesterday was the end of the Mayan calendar, but not the end of the world.  We don't really understand the Mayan calendar except that it looks like an Oreo cookie.  It is only recently that we have understood the complex, accurate, celestial observations that govern the Mayan Calendar.  Meanwhile, we celebrate Christmas on December 25 because that was where the winter solstice was in the fourth century.  Since then, the winter solstice has wandered over to December 21.  It is that easy to over-write or lose a culture.  I would hope that we can do better with steam-era railroad tradition, but it will take a better understanding of the railroad earth and the model railroad world.

Not a Professional Railroader But I Did Stay at a Holliday Inn

The wife and I rode that Choo-Choo yesterday! Went to see all the lights and have dinner at Crossroads Village. Pictures with Santa, fresh roasted almonds, hot chocolate on the carrousel and no visit is complete without riding the train. Loved it! As far as small ponds go it is a really nice small pond

http://www.geneseecountyparks.org/pages/huckleberry

Related info...

Dear MRHers,

1 - It is possible for Pro Railroaders to appreciate and interact with Railfans...

2 - Proto info, INC how to (and not to) get a job as a Pro Railroader when you have a pre-existing condition
(Model/Railfan-itis)

http://www.railroad.net/articles/columns/hottimes/index.php

http://www.railroad.net/articles/columns/hottimes/hottimes_20060602.php

http://www.railroad.net/articles/columns/hottimes/hottimes_20060715.php

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Not a Pro Railroader,
Utmost Respect for those that are...

Defense industry employees love models of jets and tanks

To echo what Bernard said, it is a different world in the defense industry. The company I work for makes many platforms featured in the modeling mags, and there isn't a director or business development manager around who doesn't have models adorning his office. Many of whom actually flew or drove those platforms on active duty, or had a hand in designing them. We also have onsite professional modelers who make trade show and display models full time.

(My boss is a Civil War re-enactor, too.)

From an outsider

I'm not a rail, but I've been blessed to hang around many on my prototype.  When I first started modeling the IAIS back in 2000, the one modeler I know of in train service there would speak to me in whispers about his interests.  He modeled the CNW, but didn't want the other guys there to know.

When I saw him a few weeks ago, he actually brought up the subject in front of his co-workers, mentioning a recent update he saw on my layout page on the IAISrailfans site, as well as some Atlas IAIS models he had.  Some of the other guys there in train service spoke up and started asking questions as well, so I didn't get the feeling he was getting grief about it at all.

Another thought on this:  The vast majority of operating railroads I'm aware of here in the Omaha area are owned by employees or retirees from UP's Omaha headquarters.  They get together over lunch to talk model railroading, and make up nearly all of my layout's operating crews.  Even at IAIS's comparatively tiny HQ, I'm aware of four railfans (including the chairman of IAIS's parent company), two of which are also modelers.  Definitely a different culture in the corporate offices.

First, thanks for this post...

I've recently thought that if my IT job at an investment bank (now there's an industry people LOVE to hate!) was eliminated (read - shipped overseas), I would try to apply at Conrail Assets.  I recently read a Trains article about their setup and the complex operations run in some of the local yard areas.  I know they have a strong need for IT systems skills.  Now that I have peeked inside the curtain, I know to keep my mouth shut about my passion for modeling if I ever seek employment there.

Railfan taboo

There was a time, not that long ago, when a railroad would not hire you if they knew you were a railfan.  Even today, it's not exactly a point in your favor.  When I was hired, the subject came up (I'd demonstrated too much knowledge and interest in railroads for the average 18 year old to not be a railfan), and for a minute I was afraid I'd blown my chances.  I told the trainmaster who was interviewing me that yes, I'm a railfan and yes, I'm going to enjoy this.  But at the same time, I understand that this is a job, and I'm here to earn a living, not play with trains.

A lot of railfans and modelers I've spoken to feel unfairly discriminated against when I tell them that being a railfan will hurt their chances of getting hired.  It might seem like that at fist, but there is a good reason for it.  Years of experience has shown that railfans typically come to work on the railroad, thinking it'll be a giant train set that they can play with.  They are so busy having fun that they forget to pay attention to what they're doing.  Then, the magic starts to wear off when it's 2 AM and below freezing and you're switching in the snow instead of home enjoying Christmas with your family.  It's not fun any more, and a lot of railfans don't make it as railroaders.  Some leave pretty soon (having wasted a chunk of the training budget), some are just dangerous.  And some make lifelong railroaders, and I'd like to think that we're better at our jobs because of our interest.  But what we have in common is the knowledge that this is a job and a career, and more importantly lives are on the line.  We enjoy it, but we take it very seriously at the same time.

Ken, you're right, its

Ken, you're right, its definitely a taboo to like trains being a rail. I think a lot of the guys out there and couldn't care less about what they're doing.... they just want the check. The lifestyle isn't the best for a real life and I think a lot of guys resent that, so when people get really intrigued by what they're doing they resent it. I'll sit and vent about things from work with my better half and bless her heart for even trying to understand half of it. Admittedly, working for a railroad has substantially dented my desire to work on freight cars and locomotives. I can't look at a SD40-2 without thinking how uncomfortable, loud, and how much I'd hate to spend 12 hours in it. All of that aside, I like working on my clubs layout and applying some first hand knowledge to designing and building around there.

Applying my job to my hobby

Rick, I'm beginning to think even the folks on the railroads don't understand the concept.  I have been trying to teach myself to stretch brake a train safely and effectively, and I can definitely see that it's a lost art.  Our territory is quite hilly, so it's not as easy and setting the brake and letting it go.  You have to get just enough, knock it off at the right time, get it back just enough, give it time to release, time to recharge, don't piss your air away, etc...  I'd like to think I'm pretty good at it by now, but it's taken me a couple years of practice and a few a** chewings!

That's why I model 1940!  The equipment and operating mentality are different enough that they don't remind me too much of work, while still being similar enough to let me use my experience to improve and better enjoy my modeling.

Even though I've sworn off of modern railroading, I do occasionally have the urge to build something more modern.  I keep looking at the big GEs and thinking "I know how I'd model that."  Prototypical weathering has been catching my eye a lot recently, and sometimes I want to try it - but I've long since sold or given away anything modern enough to weather like the cars I see at work.  The last time I got the urge, I ended up building this: 

And then I gave it to a friend, because I can't use it.  I just wanted to try building and painting it.

Be careful what you say

Railroading is FUN!

What?!  I heard that you guys on UP have it made!  The yardmasters are offering to massage your feet, trainmasters bring you food in the hotels, all the trains run on schedule and never in the middle of the night, you only have to work one day a week, etc.  You mean it's not like that??

Sometimes I really have to wonder why I put myself through it.  Then there are they days when I wonder why I'm not paying them for the privilege of riding down the main line - it's every boy's dream!

I think you've hit the nail on the head there.  One thing I noticed about the railroad not long after I hired was that it's really quite egalitarian.  Regardless of a person's age, race, gender, religion, or sexual preference, if you can do the job you're respected.  If not (for whatever reason) you're pretty universally loathed and.or dreaded.  I was 18 working side by side with men two and three times my age, many of whom had been railroading longer than I'd been alive, and I earned my place as one of them because I could do my job.

As you said, after that I could come out and nobody cares that I'm one of those crazy foamers.  After all, we're all crazy on the railroad!

Maturity...Responsibility...

I can't help thinking that it all boils down to maturity and responsibility.  Anyone who took a railroad job with the idea they were getting to play with a life size train set, is obviously not looking at things in a responsible and mature way.  I never dreamed of working for the railroad, though I once asked a neighbor if CN was hiring because I was an 18 year old kid looking for work, not a career, not a way of life, or an extension of my hobby just a job.

The trucking industry was another interest for me growing up.  The life of a trucker seemed pretty attractive.  Later in life I got the chance to work in the shop of a large local trucking company and got a small taste of being a short haul trucker as as well.  I never approached that job as though I were playing with my "big rigs".  I took it seriously and had my own safety and that of others in mind at all times.  I did however learn that being a trucker was not all that it seemed growing up! [grin]

It all depends on the person and their level of maturity.  That's likely the main difference between the ones who don't last and the ones who make lifelong rail road men, or women...

At least that is my take on it.  Your mileage will vary!

Thanks Prof Klyzir

The links to the railroad.net columns is a good source for anyone who wants a view of hiring and working for the railroad.  The observation that fans are casual spectators while employees must be active participants, is probably the heart of the matter of why fans are scorned by the railroad industry.

When I went to work for the NS steam program, the remark was made that they were over-stocked with steam experts and that I was being hired to do work as instructed.  They did not need any more expert opinions on how the job should be done... just some help in getting it done.  The railroad is all about getting it done, regardless of any other issues or opinions.  When I interviewed with Santa Fe, my resume was lousy with museum and park railroad credentials.  It was only the NS service letter that had value.  NS would vouch for my ability to follow instructions and do the work.

The subject of new hire employees, those "g-- d-- students", suggests another source of scorn.  Most of what we learn about railroading, outside the industry, is useless in learning to become a railroader.  And nothing annoys a railroader more than having a student say "I know" or telling the railroader how to do his work.  After we have learned enough to be reliable "good help", then being known as a foamer will be tolerated.  With the huge hiring surge during the "rail Renaissance" many military veterans and foamers have diluted the "old head" culture.

When BNSF acquired trackage rights on the former WP, between Stockton and Keddie Wye, we all became students and strangers in a strange land.  While I know more about WP history, the important information was knowing where the next signal was and where to set air to stop short of it, if it was going to be red.

When we detoured through Dunsmuir on the former SP, we were all students again.  But what a great run that was, all full of undulations and other interesting train handling situations.  The offices in the old depot at Dunsmuir, and the turntable, and the Mallet Shed, all reeking of old SP.  One of those trips I worked with a conductor who was also an alumni of the NS steam program.  We did not talk much as we were in a noisy old SD 40-2.  Going through the Sacramento Valley at night with two SD 40-2 and a mile of "bare tables", just able to do 68 MPH in Run 8, and the whistle echoing off the rice dryers and silos.  Our dues were paid and we could enjoy the show. 

A typical incident

Just to give an idea of the attitude I hear from my co-workers, here's a typical situation.  We're running down the main line, it's Saturday afternoon, the weather is nice.  A good day to be outside with your family, and a pretty good day for photography as well.  We come around the curve, and there's a guy standing there with a camera on a tripod, staring at us through the viewfinder and waving.  I wave back, maybe toot the horn if I'm not already blowing for a crossing.  The conductor looks out and says "Stupid loser!  Doesn't he have anything better to do on a Saturday than take pictures of a f***ing train?"

Sometimes it's left at that, if the conductor is not one I feel inclined to argue with or correct.  Sometimes I'll remind him that lots of people like trains, and if it makes him happy, who are we to look down on him?  And in one case, after listening to 8 hours of hunting stories, I responded "remember that hunter we just passed?  Stupid loser!  Doesn't he have anything better to do on a Saturday that shoot at s**t?"  He gave me a look, then shrugged and said "yeah, I guess you have a point."

Now, it's not all railroaders by any means, but I do get that attitude form time to time.  I have also reminded a few folks that these people that they're making fun of look up to them.  That kid waving at me would love to be in the seat beside me right now, and his dad might too.  To them, we're the lucky ones.  For myself, I no longer care to go out chasing trains, but I love that other people do.  It makes my day to see somebody waving at me, reminding me of the kid I used to be, eagerly waiting for the next train through town so I could count the cars and wave at the engineer.

Oh Brother!

You said a mouthful there, Rick.  Not only does that annoy me, but it's a huge red flag.  If you already know, you cannot be taught.  I've worked with a lot of the guys who already knew everything before they hired, and I'm here to tell you, they're lost!  When my conductor has a trainee why already knows everything, I make a mental note to watch out for that guy - he's going to be trouble.

All of this is not to say that the most avid (or rabid?) foamer cannot make a great railroader.  It's the attitude, willingness to listen and learn, and maturity and responsibility which make the difference in the end.  It's just that many foamers have reached the pinnacle of foamerdom by knowing everything, and it's awfully hard to go from being the expert to being the lest knowledgeable guy in the room.

LIke anything...

My son had toy guns growing up, then soft air guns.  He has a gun app on his phone that has lots of information about all kinds of guns.  Oddly enough, he is not a great shot (yet) and does not know everything about the safe and responsible handling of firearms.  Assuming you know it all because you read every book or worked with models or played with toys, gets people killed in the real world.

That guy who says, "i know" before you have finished speaking, is a liability where ever he goes, IMO.  Even if you think you know all about what is being discussed, the mature, responsible student, listens, nods and thanks his teacher for taking the time to explain.

Love it, Ken !!!!

That is pretty good, Ken...  Dang. I know I would not be able to handle 8 hours of hunting stories.... I would probably try and find something for the Conductor to do other than talk.... Maybe, I am lucky I never worked in the field?

Yep, I hope all the pros value the people who think you have such a cool job, especially the little ones. Something so simple as a wave might make that kids day. It is something that Dad and son could remember for a long time to come and a darn good way to promote goodwill.

Ken, you are an example for the rest...

Ken,

It's always great to get perspective from the guys who do this for a living.  It's unfortunate that your co-workers are so short sighted - the reality is, the business of hauling freight and passengers via the rails is very politically correct right now.  Using railroads goes a long way to solve a couple of pressing problems we currently have.  The ever-present struggle against environmental pollution and also the problem of congestion - especially here in the northeast where we can no longer just add lanes.  Both of the areas I need to visit to work suffer tremendously from traffic congestion.  I absolutely refuse to drive into Manhattan.  Why would I take the risk of taking my car onto the island, sitting in traffic waiting to go through the Holland Tunnel and then stress finding a parking garage?  I can sit in a comfortable seat for an hour and sleep, read, answer emails, or look trackside at the ghosts of PRR past?  Seems like a no-brainer to me.  CSX management gets it - their commercial spots this year were great.  NS seems to be catering to the railfan with their epic program of historic engines.  So why the attitude from the guys that actually help make that happen?  Doesn't make sense to me.  The only press I get working for a bank is bad press.  I remember how I felt crossing the line of Occupy Wall Street trying to get to work - I was very angry and upset.  I'm not a banker, but an IT person - but they only saw me enter a building with the name of an institution on it.

I very much appreciate your approach and your mindset.  I hope that you will continue to be an example for those around you!