Yard Limits in Track Warrants?

We use OCS clearances on the Sudbury Division in place of Train Orders (someday maybe we'll put up some Train Order Boards and do it the right way on the Webbwood Sub...), and I gather the principles are the same as Track Warrants.  If you have Yard Limits around Appaloosa Junction then your train can occupy the mainline within those limits without permission from the dispatcher, so your train ought to be able to head out and do its work as soon as it arrives.  

The real question is, should there be Yard Limits at Appaloosa Junction in the first place?  Yard Limits require all trains to operate on all tracks at restricted speed.  Is there enough switching going on there to require Yard Limits?  It might be better not to have Yard Limits and give the trains working there Work Between instructions so that when there is no work taking place mainline trains can run at track speed.

Jurgen, the biggest problem

Jurgen,

the biggest problem with our modular layouts is the lack of "track only" modules so the distances between the yards are rather short (http://www.america-n.de/Activities/Braunlage2009/Braunlage2009.htm). For this reason it´s not bad to slow the trains down with yard limits. On the other hand it´s a welcome relief for the dispatcher, that he need not control the traffic in these yards.

Protect Against instruction

I see where you're coming from, Bernd.  If you want to slow traffic down, Yard Limits will do the trick.

However, there's no need for the dispatcher to have to micromanage traffic where a train is switching.  If you make the train a Work Extra and give it Work Between instructions, then you give trains which are going to run through the train's work limits a "Protect Against Work Extra #### between point A and point B order", and then it's up to the trains to work out how they are going to get around each other; it's out of the dispatcher's hands altogether.

Yard Limits and switching

If he's really inside yard limits, he can do almost anything he needs to on the main or any other track without the dispatcher being involved. That's the purpose of yard limits.

If he's outside yard limits, then a work clearance/warrant would be required, and as Jurgen mentioned, other trains can be given "protect against" orders through his work zone.

TWC work betweens

Under TWC normally there's not such thing as an extra or work extra. There's no class, superiority by class or superiority by direction. There's just trains and the DS with the DS being able to tell the crews 'where to go'.

A 'proceed to' warrant give a train the authority to proceed from a point to a point using main tracks. With such a warrant a train may not back up. A back up move is defined as moving the rear of the train against the direction of travel authorized by the warrant for that train (this applied only on the main track).

A warrant is only needed to occupy the main track. So a train that received a warant with the 'clear main track at last named point' box checked has to clear up when it gets to the final named point on the warrant. Let's use Mr. Fugate's layout as an example.  The DS issues a warrant to a train in Roseberg (inside yard limits).  Checkbox 1. Proceed from Rosebert to Rice Hill

Checkbox 7 (I think 7 on Joe's warrants) - clear main track at last named point.

Once the warrant is made ok the train can now travel the mainline from Roseberg to Rice Hill. At Rice Hill they must get into the siding.

Another example, this time on my Bear Creek and South Jackson railroad. The DS gives the Oakhill Turn a warrant to proceed from Mill Bend to Oakhill, clear main track at last named point. There is a wye at Oakhill off of the siding. Once clear of the main in Oakhill the 'turn' can switch away to theirs hearts delight as long as they stay off of the main track (a skilled crew can usually manage to do just that). The 'turn' only needs another warrant when their switching is done and they're ready to head back down the hill to Mill Bend.

Another example, a local train needs to switch out some cars on a trailing point spur. There is no siding or run around in that town, only the spur track. Does the local need a work-between warrant to switch that spur?

Nope. The local pulls part way up to the spur then cuts off the rear of their train leaving in on the main. They pull foward then back onto the spur to grab the mts there pulling forward again than backing the picked up mts onto the rear end of their train. Then foward and back onto the spur to spot the loaded setouts, then back to their train, pump up the air, brake test and off they go. Assuming they were smart enough to leave the rear end of their train back far enough for the cut of pickups to fit between the turnout fouling point and the rear part of the train the caboose didn't move backward so the warrant was not violated even though it didn't explicitly say the local could do the switching. It didn't need to in this case (but woe to the DS who sends another train down the tracks after the local figuring the local would be out of the way by the time they got there! Ouch...)

A work between is used when the train it is issued to will need to be going every which way but loose between the two named work between points. For example the Rice Hill Rocket on Joe Fugate's layout gets a warrant

Checkbox 8 (not sure about that number again!) work between Roseberg and Rice Hill.

Since this train leaves from Roseberg, that's it. No other warrants or boxes needed. This train now has authority to use and abuse the main track between Roseberg and Rice Hill to the hearts content of the crew. There are two towns this train does switcihng in, Oakland and Sutherlin. No matter, both areas are within the work between limits so they can do as they please.

So! If a train has a work between Rice HIll and Roseberg does it need another warrant to go back to Roseberg when finished?

Nope! Since the end of their authority is Roseberg yard limits they can just call the YM and ask to come into his jurisdiction (it's nice to tell the DS that they're heading back home).

What if another train needs to get from Roseberg, past Rice Hill, to Cottage Grove and then on to Eugene (on Joe's layout)?

Two ways (that I'm familiar with):

1) The DS contacts the Rice Hill Rocket (Oakland Turn) crew and tells them to clear the main and contact him when clear. Once they have gotten the main clear through out the entire length of their work between warrant they call the DS and give back their warrant. Now the DS can issue a warrant to the train(s) needing to get through the Oakland/Sutherlin area. Then the DS would likely give the Rice Hill Rocket's crew another work between warrant contingent on the other train having passed through.

This works well on real railroads where there are miles and miles of track between towns and trains are relatively infrequent.

2) The DS gives the Rice Hill Rocket a work between warrant joint with 'trains' and with restricted speed across it's territory. Then when another train needs to get through the DS gives them a warrant joint with SP8227 (or what ever the engine # of the Rice Hill Rocket was) and restricted speed over the territory. The other train calls SP8227 and the two train crews arrage how to get by each other without the DS getting directly involved. This doesn't work real well on prototype railroads because it requires both trains to operate over the entire area at restricted speed. But on models with our inevitably short main line lengths between towns and too frequent trains it works well. The DS doesn't have to orchestrate everything getting previous warrants cleared and issuing new ones and the restricted speeds don't reall amount to much on many model railroads.

btw. restricted speed is usually not a specific speed limit in mph (or kph) but instead the speed at which a trainman would be able to safely bring his train to a stop in 1/2 of their forward visibility.

So instead of sticking yard limits all over the place, try some 'joint with trains' warrants.

btw. In an earlier example some one had a proceed A to D clear main track at last named point where D was within yard limits. I don't believe this to be valid, as the DS doesn't control what happens within yard limits.

Hope this wasn't too long...

Cheers,

Charlie

Track Warrants and OCS aren't exactly the same

There seem to be a few detail differences between Track Warrants and OCS clearances.  The Work Extra is just OCS terminology; all trains are extras under OCS, so effectively there are no classes with OCS either.  Joint with Trains is a variation on Work Limits, but Work Limits are somewhat more flexible, since the Work Extra can allow meeting trains to operate with no restrictions, therefore no speed reduction.  

However, since the question was on Track Warrants, I defer to Charlie. 

Work Extra

Actually with OCS it's not "extra" either. Trains are addressed by engine number and direction ("1234 West") or when issued a work clearance "Work 1234". Not "Work Extra 1234"

Class and superiority don't exist under OCS either and there are no extras because there are no scheduled trains. The idea of "extra" no longer exists.

Woe to the dispatcher...

Woe be to any dispatcher who does this even if the other train is out of the way by the time the next one gets there. The dispatcher should receive a track release from the train, indicating that they have passed a specifically named point before sending another train down any part of the track that the first train has been cleared, unless there is a secondary rear-end protection system like ABS signals, or the following train is specifically told to protect against the preceding train for the length of the clearance overlap.

I'm not sure about track warrants exactly, but under OCS a clearance or track release is given at any referenced location, whether a specific milepost, sign or track switch (eg, "East siding switch Apple" rather than just "Apple")

Times change

That's today, Chris; when OCS was introduced trains were extras or work extras, or even passenger extras.  No doubt someone decided the word extra was irrelevant and they decided to drop it at some point.  On the Sudbury Division we use the old format, as you will realize tomrrow at our operating session.

But again, that is OCS, and the subject was Track Warrants.

A little off-topic.. but that

A little off-topic.. but that FREMO layout looks lots of fun to operate. I really wish there was a local group doing FREMO or OneTrak for operations. Everything I see in New England for modular N seems to be N-Trak for show running. Triple mainline railfanning is not my thing.

Chris

ed: Checked out the website, cool stuff!

Work between warrant joint with 'trains'

Hallo Charlie,

thanks for your detailed answer. One thing I did not understand was "a work between warrant joint with 'trains' and with restricted speed across it's territory". What do you mean with 'trains'? Do you mean "Box11: Between _____ And ____ Make all movements at restricted speed. Limits occupied by train." even when a later expected train does not occupy the limits at the time the track warrant is issued to the local?

New topic in the right category

Chris,

I wrote some remarks in a new thread: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/1036

Yes

Referring to my track warrant forms - http://s145079212.onlinehome.us/rr/operations/twc.html#twcform

The Mill Bend turn (sitting in South Jackson yard waiting to go do their work) would get the following warrant (on my Bear Creek and South Jackson)...

Warrant No. XX dated April 17, 1952

To: BCSJ 77 at South Jackson

Checkbox [4] work between South Jackson and Deschutes Jct

Checkbox [11] Between South Jackson and Deschutes Jct make all movements at restricted speed. Limits occupied by train or engine.

Checkbox [14] Joint with trains between South Jackson and Deschutes Jct.

You are correct that this will force the crew of the Mill Bend turn to work at restricted speed all the time even though there may not be another train within the limits of their warrant. This is why the prototype would likely have the Mill Bend turn clear the main then clear their warrant for each train (or block of trains) passing through their limits.

But on a model railroad where traffic density is usually higher than the prototype and where restricted speed isn't a whole lot slower than normal switching speeds it works fine and saves the DS a bunch of work when lots of trains are passing through.

The Mill Bend turn typically takes an hour or more to do their work (even with an experienced crew). In that time they typically get train 100 - reefer express, a GN passenger train (passing through twice - once each direction), the Redland Transfer returning from Redland, and express west freight, and possibly another train or two. That would be a lot of clearing up and getting a new warrant for the MBT and the DS if we didn't use the 'joint with trains' provision.

Perhaps at some time in the future I'll move to time table and train order operation (which would be a LOT more prototypical for 1952!) and then the Mill Bend turn will have to dodge through trains based on the clock, time table, and what ever train orders they received. But I'll likely wait until the rest of the layout is constructed before doing that.

Hope this clarifies things. For a better source of information than my own feeble knowledge of TWC operation you can try posting on the yahoo groups Ops-Ind list or join up with the OpSig (operations special interest group - opsig.org). There are a bunch of real train men and dispatchers over there.

Cheers,

Charlie

Traffic density

Charlie,

thanks for your useful hints. At our next meeting we will try fewer yard limits.

Traffic density is also a major concern at our meetings. We do not use a fast clock. The graphic timetable is more or less a recommendation for the sucession of the trains. When enough train crews are available, more trains will be on the layout simultanously, until the DS gets insane (but he has to blame himself ). As you said, prototypical practice of TWC is not always the best way for handling our model trains.

Another module specific "problem" is the fact that the layout only exists temporarily and you just have some sessions at a typical gathering to optimize the operation. "Routine" is a unknown word on our modular layouts.

Fast Clock

A common misconception (from my point of view) is that that use of a fast clock results in higher train density.

Actually the thing that results in higher train density is running more trains with less time between them. My layout can (relatively) comfortably handle 15 trains in a 3 hour op session. That doesn't change whether I'm looking at the wall clock which shows 3 hours elapsing or whether I'm looking at the fast clock (4x) which shows 12 hours elapsing.

And should I decide I want to 'pretend' to be running trains over 24 hours instead of 12 the fast clock ratio would become 8x but the number of trains to run stays the same (unless I wish to increase or decreas train density). Changing the fast clock ratio would mean going through the train line sheet and changing the 'railroad time' each train is called.  It's sort of like being able to say I waited 2 hours for someone at the airport while someone else says I waited 120 minutes for someone at the airport.

The place people seem to produce confusion is when taking a prototype time table and trying to run it with trains having station times that are the same as the prototype. This produces "interesting" results because

1) with our too short distances between towns - a trip that takes the prototype 20 minutes takes us 2 minutes.

2) since the prototype can 'kick' cars but our models (seldom) have enough mass/momentum for kicking it's possible for the prototype guys to switch cars fasterer in a yard then on a model where each car needs to be shoved to rest (assuming that the model yard crew isn't running at slot-car-speeds - zoom!)

So for switching or yard ops we can actually use roughly the same time as the prototype but for running between towns we need more. This plays havoc with prototype timetables. If the clock is sped up to have the same number of "minutes" between towns then the "minutes" required for switching goes into orbit. But if we run with wall clock time then it's kind of strange to have a timetable where a train is past stations A, B, C, and D at 1:03pm, 1:03pm, 1:03pm, and 1:04pm!  Sometimes it seems like you can't win (unless like the LaMesa club you have a big enough layout that it does take prototype times to get between stations)

Helping to spread more confusion...

Charlie

Box 4's and yard Limits

Those pesky Box 4's keep everybody else out of the area between A and Z marked. When you have a Box 4 for your train, no one else is allowed in that area. You may give up your box 4 for a box 2, or clear up totally, but once you have a Box 4, that space is all yours.

When you get to the "Joint with with so and so" box, it should state specifically who who are joint with, so you can contact them, establish their location and ask their permission to enter the limits. Usually the "Joint with" is given with a Box 2 and you have to pass thru a area where the maintenence-in-the-way guys are fixing a broken rail, tree acroos the tracks or anything in between. The joint-with line will usually have a Foremans name.

Without an ABS system, which 99% of layouts consist of, Track Warrants take on a whole different personna if you want to operate as Dark Territory, and I am not talking about the Steven Segal movie. Track Warrants are not allowed to be joint in the Dark Territory where we operate. Which means the first train headed in a certain direction will have to 'Roll-Up" his warrant to let others follow, and there is no "after arrival" warrants for opposing trains at meets. But that takes too much work and with most layouts being entirely visable, Corn-field meets are rare unless too many barley-flavored beverages were consumed by operating crew.

If you want to cut down on the paperwork, make the entire layout within yard limits. Then a single yardmaster can play dictator and authorize movement on any track with their verbal permission. This does require some micro-management in that if you have power and cars on track 4, and want to go over to track 8 or cross the bridge, or leave the yard, you must be first granted permission.

Also, all tracks within yard limits are not restricted speed. I can point out miles and miles of tracks within yard limits that are rated for 70MPH. Just check out the commuter lines that radiate out of downtown Chicago and find the yard boards are almost 7 to 17 miles out. With signals and better than approach aspects, trains on the mainline within yard limits can go at prescribed speed per timetable, class and other orders. There was nothing like the experience of standing on a commuter platform and watching the Westbound "Falcon" charge out of Chicago with 4 or more 3000 HP diesels in notch 8 and watch the expression on the evening passengers as a freight with almost 200 semi-trucks zoomed past at 60MPH, all within yard limits.

Thomas G

Yard Limits

I am taking this from the NORAC rulebook which I operated under on the real railroads for many years. I hope it helps but it does give you more operating options. It can apply easily to model railroads without too much aggrevation. I know many of you operate with "track warrants". The NORAC Form D is just another version of that. To me, it's simple, because that's all I've ever used. You can find more information, including a printable version of a NORAC Form D just by going to Google or Yahoo and type in NORAC Form D.

Yard limits are designated at locations where, not only where yards are, but where switching or work can be done. This is done because more than one train can operate or occupy a main track at one time without needing "paper" (Form D's or Track Warrants). It's basically a "free for all" with 1 basic rule: ALL trains must operate at Restricted Speed - not exceedind 10mph per NORAC. With Restricted Speed, there can be NO accidents because ALL trains are operating at a speed that makes them stop short of any train, obstruction or switch improperly lined. Trains do not need a Form D (or track warrant) UNLESS they are going to leave yard limits. The yard limits are under the control of a yardmater, if in a yard. If yardlimits are established out on the line somewhere, say a small town with many branchline customers, they are under the control of the dispatcher. If a train wants to occupy the mainline within yard limits, all that train needs is verbal permission from the dispatcher. No track warrant, or Form D is needed UNLESS that train will occupy the mainline OUTSIDE of yard limits.

I hope I did'nt bore you with that brief example. Long story short: you don't need a track warrant (Form D) inside yard limits. You DO need a track warrant (Form D) if you plan to occupy the mainline OUTSIDE of Yard limits.

Simply...whatever works for you is all you need!

A dumb question?

Steve, I'm curious as to which railroads would use the NORAC Form D.  This perhaps should be obvious, but I don't know.  I'm just learning about operations and I'm curious after reading your post. 

Yard limits and speed limits under tt&to

It's my impression that when railroads ran under time table and train orders that all trains within yard limits were a free for all EXCEPT that all trains were required to clear the times of 1st class trains which allowed the first class trains to blow through with much more than restricted speed (or course if the 1st class train was running late this would tie yard operations into a knot because everyone had to keep clear of the track that train would be on - most often the main track.

Cheers,

Charlie

No such thing as a dumb question...

Dave, there is no such thing as a dumb question....answers, on the other hand can leave a lot to be desired.....I'll do my best to answer your question.

NORAC stands for Northeast Operating Rules Advisory Committee. It's members included railroads from across the Northeastern US. NORAC was devised for simplicity. I'll explain. Many railroads have what they call "trackage rights" which grant other railroads permission to operate on their tracks. For example, (I'm giving this example because I worked for both CR and NYS&W) Conrail would give the NYS&W trackage rights to operate their trains over Conrail tracks. In addition, NYS&W would also have permission to operate their trains  over D&H (now CP) tracks. To a NYS&W crew member, it could be very confusing to remember 3 rulebooks. NORAC was formed so that many different railroads shared the same rules, including signals.

It may seem strange to some but most every railroad ran by different rules. Furthermore, if railroads did have the same some of the same rules, chances are they had different definitions and meanings. For example. slow speed on 1 railroad could be 10 mph, but on a different railroad, slow speed could have meant 20 mph. NORAC did away with all of that and made a universal rule book so that member railroads could share in the safety and security knowing that all employees were covered under the same operating rules. NYS&W could operate over Conrail tracks because they shared the same rules.

NORAC even made the signal system universal. Signals, to me, were the most important rules to follow while running a train. Now imagine running over 3 seperate railroads each with different rules and signals. For example, I would  run a NYS&W train from Binghamton, NY to Little Ferry, NJ. In doing so, most nights, I would operate over 3 different railroads. We would sometimes back our train out of the D&H yard at East Binghamton onto Conrail's Southern Tier line. We would then head east picking up New Jersey Transit at Port Jervis, NY. It made it very easy simple to just carry 1 rulebook with us and qualify on 1 signal system.

To answer the other part of your question, NORAC has about 30 member railroads. I'll list a few of them for you. Some members include: CP Rail, NYS&W, CR Shared Assets, CSX, NJT, NS, P&W, SEPTA, RBM&N, Bay Colony RR, Finger Lakes RR, the list goes on. A complete list of member railroads can be found on the inside cover of the rule book.

If you need more information, you can just get on Google or Yahoo and type in NORAC rules. I have some extra copies of the rulebooks too. I hope that helps. If you need more information, let me know. Just ask...no such thing as a dumb question.

Thanks, Steve!

That will help out a lot.  Just one more question for now - when was NORAC formed?  I'm sure a google search would net me this information, but just thought I'd ask. 

formation of NORAC

Dave;

I believe NORAC was formed back in 1989. I'll dig out my books and look it up for you. I have a few spare copies of the rule books. If you want 1, I'll send you one.

yard limits and speeds under TT&TO

Charlie;

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the "free for all" in yard limits that I mentioned were taking place in a "modern day" era. In the area I operated in, we had no 1st class trains to clear for.  The timetables I operated under had no instructions for clear times because we had no scheduled trains. Every train was "Extra". Furthermore, we had radio's to communicate with other "extra" trains. I'm not sure how they did it "back then". I sure do give those guys a lot of credit.

In addition, NORAC gave passenger trains a higher restricted speed - 15 mph inside yard limits and 20 mph outside yard limits.

Sorry for the mixup!

Scheduled trains

One layout I operate on has a different (1950's) concept. Any train doing work may use the main only with an eye on the schedule and must have the main clear five minutes before a scheduled trai is due to depart the previous station on the line. Since scheduled times are good for 12 hours, the local must sit in the clear until the superior train passes, however late it may be, or until the 12 hours elapses.