Me Too

Joe,

Your story is very similar to mine: Kids played a major role in nudging me off the original path of modeling the B&O from the late Sixties until just before Amtrak. 

I had agreed to do a model railroading presentation for my daughters' home school co-op.  I planned to hook together some Barrow-style dominoes that a friend had given me, showing scenery in various stages of completion, setting them up in the basement of a local Church.  The fully completed scene included a grade crossing with working crossbuck flashers.

As we approached a 1:1 scale grade crossing near our house, a CSX train of auto racks lumbered by.  My [then] 6yr-old daughter asked: "Dad, is that the kind of train you're gonna run at the co-op next week?"  It was, as of that very moment. I figured if I ran some of the gray/blue/yellow diesels the kids saw every day, rather than the solid dark blue B&O models from a generation ago, they would be more interested.  At least that's how I justified my trip to M. B. Klein's where I picked up a pair of 6-axle locos in CSX garb - plus several Walthers auto racks and 86ft hi-cube boxcars.  I told my wife that our own kids would be more likely to join me in the train room if I got these [yeah...right!] 

Well, my kids' interest faded quickly after the demo at the co-op.  But my own excitement with the hobby grew to a level I hadn't experienced since my youthful days of train-chasing!  I've always loved being able to replicate something I've seen in real life, shortly after being near it.  This change of eras made it possible for me to do exactly that.  

I eventually narrowed my modeling focus to the early Nineties; this way I could still run the colorful 6-axle motive power, while avoiding the requirement to install ditch lights on every one of my locos..!

Modeling in an era . . .

Good Morning:

My modeling era preference is beginning to be impacted
by availability of N-scale modeling equipment that will work
somewhat like the prototype equipment with which I am
most familiar.

I was born in Arkansas in 1933, and steam was in its prime.
The railroads that ran through my neighborhood included
Rock Island, Missouri Pacific, and Cotton Belt. My grand
father was a car man in the Pine Bluff yard, keeping the
journals and bearings oiled on every train that came to town. 
My father was a yard-and-chain man with the crew that kept
the railroad where it belonged. I was a small child, but they
took me to the yard and shops often. I remember watching
Cotton Belt's 4-8-4 800s being built, and what a powerful
impression this made in my mind.

So far, I have not found a reasonable N-scale model of a
proper 4-8-4 northern that closely resembles the L1-class
that was for the Cotton Belt.  I keep looking.  What I did find
was a decent 2-8-0 Consolidation that kept the freight moving
down the Cotton Belt tracks before the 4-8-4 northerns were
added to the roster.

Before I was in high-school, Cotton Belt added their four-unit
diesel-electrics that provided a total of 6000 HorsePower, and
changed the movement of freight. As beautiful as those new
dielsels were, I was still hooked on the magnificence of the
800s, what a beautiful proportioned engine those were, indeed.

All freight cars had to be equipped with ladders and roofwalks
to facilitate switchmen and brakemen as they handled them. 
In my early 20s, I actually worked as a switchman on the Texas
and Pacific railroad in Dallas, Texas,  . . . so, I knew all about
climbing on the cars and setting brakes,  . . . and that fixed my
ideas of what I wanted on my model railroad.

I rode the Cotton Belt and Missouri Pacific often during my
childhood, and after completing Warren Easton High School
in New Orleans, I save my money, bought a one-way ticket
to Abilene, Texas, . . . pocketed $25 cash, and ventured off
to college at Hardin-Simmons University.  I chose Texas as
my new home, and have been here since 1951.  So, when
my model railroad began to take form, I wanted somehow to
include the Cotton Belt, Missouri Pacific, Rock Island, Santa Fe,
Frisco, Texas and Pacific, Fort Worth & Denver (Burlington),
MKT (Katy), Southern Pacific (and all of their various operations
in Texas), Kansas City Southern (for the Southern Belle).  All of
these long-gone railroads of my past now fly on my model
railroad:  The Brazos Valley Railway.

. . . and I cannot imagine having boxcars like those being made
to run without switchmen and brakemen, who need to climb
aboard to pull pins, set brakes, release brakes, and so forth.

I peek into various auctions to find equipment that was built
between about 1900 and 1940-ish, for my pike-era is from
about 1920 to about 1950,  . . . more or less.

Next, I want to find some steam engines that can pull an N-scale
drag of about 70 to 100 freight cars.  What I have seen look okay,
but they won't pull a prototype-load.  My memory of Cotton Belt
800s pulling 100 8000 or 10,000 gallon oil cars out of Shreveport
and on to refineries in the mid-west set my desire for strong pulling
N-scale engines.  I'm still looking, but the rest of the stuff is coming
into place,  . . . but rest assured that it will not look very much
like 21st Century trains.

I like the Model Railroad Hobbyist.  Keep up the good work.

Appreciatively,
Dick
  
F. Richard Burt
Brazos Valley Railway
. . . through the Heart of Texas

.

Joe eschews my favorite things

Long live Black Widow, roofwalks, and cabooses!

The Superintendent of Motive Power...

The superintendent of motive power on the Bare Creek liked Black Widow paint enough that he "borrowed" it for the BC&SJ's 'new' E7 units.

Charlie

He has good taste

Charlie, now I have another reason to like your modeling.

It took me awhile to get yous

It took me awhile to get yous to the lack of roof walks but the thing that I really miss is the NO Caboose at the end of a train just a steal rod with red and yellow stripes and sometimes there is a red light.

Dan

That's the beauty of the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line

That's the beauty of the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line ... they ran cabooses right up until the early 90s because the Siskiyou Line is not as automated as the SP main. Yet the Siskiyou Line *used* to be the mainline until the late 1920s, so it's a branchline that doesn't *look* like a branch line.

Add to that the fact they often ran 100-car lumber trains on the branch and you have a branchline that feels almost like a throwback mainline operation.

Perfect model railroading combination!

I've been inspired

... to revisit Joe's Volume 1: Modeling a prototype.  I was glad to see cabooses, and yes, the occasional running board still in existence in 1984..

Those water cars add a lot of operational interest.  It's like adding a substantial industry.  I'm curious: (1) when did the SP begin using water cars to wet down the roadbed, (2) was it only during the dry season, and (3) what arrangements does Joe employ to simulate the tank cars' reloading?  Thanks.

It appears the water cars started ...

It appears the water cars started in the mid-to-late 50s, just as the "Smokey the Bear" campaign captured the public's fascination with the story of the real-life bear cub rescued from a fire in 1950. By the late 50s, the campaign was really changing public opinion and the Forest Service appears to have clamped down on anything that even might remotely cause a fire by inaugerating the water car rule from April to October.

We don't do anything to simulate filling the water cars. Just keeping water cars on the proper side of the hill for the expected trains is enough of a challenge for the dispatcher and crews.

Water Cars

I was watching a cerain movie that stared Burt Lancaster tonight. It was called "Elmer Gantry" and one of the early scenes shows him wlking along some railroad tracks which featured what appeared to be siding holding a tank car labeled "WATER CAR" and carry SPMW reporting marks. AS soon as I saw this I thought does that water car have anything t do with your layout? I guess it would depend on where the movie was filmed.

I know you live in Oregon and the Siskiyou is obviously located in Oregon as well. But those reporting marks have to be significant. Could SPMW stand for Southern Pacific Miantenance of Way? It just seesm to me that this is too convenient but that alone doesn't rule it out.

In anycase the movie seems to take place in the period before World War II when it was common for hobos to ride the rails and if this is the case the water car is definitely something from a later era. In any case Lancaster is playing the role of salesman that rides trains to visit his customers at least at first. He somhow gets attracted to selling religion instead of other things like toasters and vacuum cleaners in the movie.

Irv

Irv, the water cars ...

Irv, the water cars were used all up and down the SP system in Oregon and California. The orders come from the US Forest Service, so it's a federal rule.

And yes, SPMW is SP maintentance of way. I suspect the movie was filmed somewhere in California - and water cars were used there as well.

Water Cars

I saw the movie on one of the free movie cable channels on Time Warner's Road Runner service. I did not that it was made around 1959-60 so they obviously used an area where the SP operated at the time. Movies weren't all made in Hollywood back then so it is quite likely they chose an area which looked like the Mid-West or Bible-Belt areas in which to film it on location. The movie does show off Lancaster's fabulous acting talent even if the role he plays is less than heroic.

My model railroad era is the current time so I wont have roof walks on most of my equipment. However I haven't decided to eliminate cabbooses or not yet. Of course cabooses are still rquired for long backup moves so they haven't been totally eliminated. I don't know if I'll have those as of now but anything is possible.

Irv

Elmer Gantry

Irv,

FYI,The movie Elmer Gantry is based on the 1927 satirical novel, by Sinclair Lewis.  The story is set in the 1920's.  The movie was released in 1960 by United Artists.

While Gantry does travel around the country a lot, the story is originally set in the midwest.

It's entirely possible that the footage you saw was shot in a rural area in California but it could have been on a back lot at a studio too.  One never knows.

In any event the water car in question was out of place in the movie if the setting was the 20's.

I could be mistaken about that.  As Don points out below, water cars were used in fire trains prior to the regulations being introduced requiring water cars during fire season.

I agree, those water cars add a lot to the regular operation of the Siskiyou line.  As joe says, just making sure they are where they need to be in order to comply with regulations is enough for the crews to worry about.

pre 1946

I have a photocopy in one of my "idea" notebooks of SP ten wheeler #2183 with water cars behind.  It is a fire train that is typical of what SP used both in the sierras and the cascades.  Steam injector powered nozzles on the locomotive, and "presumably" air pressure powered water cannons on the water car platforms are being aimed at a hillside.  The loco tender has "SOUTHERN PACIFIC LINES" lettering, so it is pre-1946.

CDF notes on water cars

A California Division of Forestry (CDF, or CalFire) document has some tidbits on CORP (ex-SP Siskiyou route) water cars.  Pages 3 and 4 of the .pdf show a CORP water car with some good shots of the water jets.

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/pub/fireplan/fpupload/fppguidepdf32.pdf

The Elmer Gantry scenes may have been filmed in Cajon Pass.

The television and movie studios love to use the area around Mormon Rocks and Sullivan's Curve for out door shots.  It seems that they can simulate almost any place there, especially if they make the shot tight enough that they don't actually show the Mormon Rocks themselves.  S.P. used to keep a tank car filled with water parked on a siding within sight of the highway 138 overpass.  I think it was still there under the U.P. ownership a few weeks ago when I last went past that area, but I don't specifically look for it when I drive past anymore.  I think the most common place for fires to start in that area is Lone Pine Canyon which runs parrallel to the 138 but just over the hill to the West.  The second most common spot for fires to start is in the canyon that the 138 uses.  I do volunteer work at a church camp near Wrightwood and have been going up 138 6 times a summer or more since 1976.  I don't remember ever going up the 138 when I did not see evidence somewhere along the road of recent wild fires.  I think the last one was just 2 or 3 years ago along the 138 in the Mormon Rocks area.

SP long used water cars for

SP long used water cars for making fire trains, supplementing the water supply of locomotive tenders, and supplying potable water to dry SP outposts.

Elmer Gantry Redux

Russ, it's highly unlikely that the scene you mentioned was filmed in the Mormon Rocks area of Cajon. Elmer Gantry  was released in 1960, well before the SP line over Cajon was even under construction. More likely, the the scene was filmed around the Chatsworth Rocks area on the Coast Line. That area does resemble Cajon somewhat.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=113653&nseq=0

Mike

Roofwalks

I find the look of modern freight cars, especially the roof walks, to be one of the top reasons I want to model the 70s vs the 60s or earlier. I also really like being able to use modern research material like google earth to research the current right of way..

For me, it has broken down somewhat as

Modern Era

Pros

• Freight cars look great
• Easy to research
• Good N-scale availability
• Diesels in N very reliable

Cons

• Northern New England less interesting then in previous era (Operations & Traffic specifically..)
• Lack of non-Amtrak passenger
• Guilford

Transition Era

Pros

• Huge availability of products
• Huge availability of products
• Diesels in N very reliable

Cons

• Tired of yet another aspect of life dominated by baby boomers
• End of steam is kind of sad, kind of like modeling a hospice
• Frieght cars are drab and hard to differentiate (N-scale issue..)
• McGinnis

Early Steam

Pros

• Fascinating operations
• Wonderful structures
• Steam is in a golden age
• Northern New England at its peak of rail traffic
• Research is extremely interesting

Cons

• Almost complete lack of N-scale products, especially freight cars and early steam locos
• N-scale steam has reliability and detail issues
• Requires more modeling skill then I feel I posses
• Almost too much operation in New England..

Ahh such choices.. this is why I am taking a break while I try to wrap my mind around what I really want..

Chris

Railroad cars have never had roof walks

but they did have roof running boards.

That's a pretty good summary

and a similar struggle to what I have.  I'm just finishing a book on the area I want to model that spans the beginning of the railroad in the 1870s to 1986.  It all sounds so fascinating, but the limitations in my skill and model availability put a hindrance in some of the ideas I had.  I'm still leaning to my selection of late 70s/early 80s, but thinking more of ways to make it earlier with minor equipment and building changes if I wanted to do that.  It would be nice to have four layouts, but that isn't realistic for most of us. 

Transition Era versus "modern" was NOT a no-brainer

Joe,

You took the words right out of my mouth, although I went backwards!  I wanted to do the last of the days on the Richmond, Fredericksburg, & Potomac (RF&P) Railroad, since I loved the paint scheme they had after '83.  However, the existence of CSX eliminated my chances of also adding another favorite scheme, this one on the Seaboard Coast Line's Family Lines locos.  Also, there would be no C&O, just a few old & decrepit Chessies. And, the missus would be sad with no Cabooses running around.

It was very confusing to me at first.  However, with the help of Bob Leonard (RWL on the Model Railroad Forum) I got it all straightened out, chose the late 70's, to allow for all that I wanted, with no sacrifice of industries on the line either.  However, he's placing subtle hints out there that I shold also look at backdating to the Transition Era, to allow for a few steam locos pounding the rail... who knows what comes next?  But, it's all good.

Norm

have a photocopy in one of my