I agree standardize Sound Decoders...

...for one's Locomotive Fleet.  However, I spend the extra money for a preinstalled Sound Decoder, NOT for the decoder, but the preinstalled speakers so all I need to do is replace the decoder itself.  

That's what I have been doing at least.

FWIW

Ken L. 

Consist Programing Problems

Wow, I had not realized there were so many consisting problems with sound decoders from different manufacturers.

Makes me almost wonder why I am even considering sound? Sounds like an expensive situation to try and 'standardize' one's fleet of already purchased locos??

I guess I just put too much hope in the idea of a 'compatibility/standardization' by DCC decoder manufacturers.

@JoeF

Joe,

I agree with Ken L. that it still might be wise to buy the DCC version of a locomotive to ensure you have speakers and specific lights/LEDs installed that might not be installed in a DCC ready version.

With regards to consisting problems of sound equipped locomotives using different manufacturer decoders, what are the issues you are encountering? I have no experience with consisting sound locomotives, so I'm left wondering based on my knowledge of the DCC standard. The DCC standard defines several methods of consisting and none of those should have any adverse effects on sound equipped locomotives. In short, consisting should be sound/non-sound decoder and vendor agnostic. Is the consist becoming a cacophony due to non-leaders 'thinking' they are still the leader? Or are other things going haywire? Care to elaborate please so we can use that knowledge to push vendors to come up with a fix?

The problem I have...

Is that the sound decoder manufacturers (at least SoundTraxx and TCS, haven't checked ESU's newest LokPilots) don't put their most advanced motor control functions like dynamic braking, or train brakes, in their non-sound decoders. 

So if you want to mix sound and non-sound decoders in a consist, and turn on the dynamics (which do provide a brake function on SoundTraxx at least) your non-sound decoder equipped locomotives will be fighting them.

Yaron

The problem with mixing manufacturers sound decoders generally comes down to advanced motor control.

One of the most touted features of the Loksound decoders is "drive hold" where you can tell the decoder to freeze at a speed while changing the engine sound in response to throttle inputs (do the LokPilots also have this?). SoundTraxx does not have this, but implements DDE (dynamic diesel exhaust, IIRC) where the locomotive sound will change based on how hard the locomotive motor is working. Which ESU doesn't have. Joe mentioned that.

Brakes are handled differently between all manufacturers,  and I believe none but the most basic braking functions will work together - if that. SoundTraxx has a train brake, TCS has a very interesting incremental brake (the more you apply it, the stronger the braking force), and ESU had only basic brakes in the V4, but has something more complex in the Loksound 5.

Out of the box, ESU decoders will wait until the sound spools up before they start moving. A nicely prototypical effect that is a bit disconcerting until you get used to it. SoundTraxx starts moving with the throttle - but they have implemented a function called "deadband" where you can imitate the ESU effect. Look it up in the manual.

ESU also treats speed tables differently than anyone else.

I've got a mix of decoders out there, but I am only consisting like decoders - i am not even mixing different decoders from the same manufacturer (I've discovered even the Select and v4 from ESU seem to play differently in otherwise identical locomotives). The differences are simply too great - or too subtle.

@Jeff

Jeff,

Thanks for that explanation, and it makes sense. This issues stem from the DCC protocol not having been standardized for braking and decoupled motor sound control. Manufacturers are abusing the existing protocol with their own firmware specific workarounds breaking consisting. The ESU implementation of Drive Hold in my opinion is atrocious from a compatibility perspective.

I guess it all comes back to the need for an extension to the DCC standard where, if this new 'mode' is enabled in the consisted decoders, all decoders would be able to decouple sounds from actual speed and braking. In the Protothrottle build thread I did make suggestions on what type of features/commands could be added to the DCC protocol that would accomplish this. But getting anything to be added to the DCC protocol is an act of god from what I've heard. It all likely has to start with a manufacturer to take a look at that and try creating an open reference implementation and show it off for others to follow.

Jeff outlined it pretty well

NMRA standard CV list is lowest common denominator

Actually - I should say it is significantly less than the lowest common denominator.

As I've said in other posts - there are less than a handfull of Required CVs. The remainder are all optional.  I understand that this was due to the state of the art at the time of the standard's creation. Decades have passed, hardware is much less expensive and the entire list should now be Required.

As to the current differences in sound decoders, this should be a relatively easy thing to fix if the Three Big Vendors chose to do so. Today's hardware is cheap enough that there is plenty of room for a "compatibility mode" and a "super fancy proprietary mode."

It's just a matter of caring enough about your customers to give up on the "customer lock-in" strategy.

gs

Standardizing Sound decoders---

Standardization of Sound Decoders--

Jeff:

You hit the nail on the head! Maybe if anything needs to be standardized by the NMRA, it's the features you mentioned in your post that need to be addressed! A lot of my customers in the past didn't like the "engine shut down feature", on QSI sound decoders. Have it lashed up with a locomotive without that, and an operator presses that function button, and the one with QSI suddenly stops running! That feature was not a favorite with many a modeler!

Joe Bliss 

Allegheny Model RR Services

Sound decoder function keys comparison ...

Here you go, click on the table to view a larger version.

 (Click to enlarge to a readable version)

thanks

Thank you for this information. I fear you have ruffled a few feather with your advertisers. My little engines might need helpers in the form of powered cars so that I can have decent size freight trains and passenger trains with brass cars run over my road. So this is food at the proper time for me. 

In appreciation,

Bob Harris

Depends on situation

Consistency usually means things are easier to manage.  In regards to decoders, especially if you plan on consisting, certainly worth standardizing your decoders.  
 

I disagree somewhat on avoiding factory installed decoders.  Have an Athearn genesis GP-7 with factory installed Tsunami-2 decoder which runs like a champ.  As consisting on my layout is a rarity, (switching layout), my Atlas GP-7 will retain its factory lok sound decoder.  (If I planned on consisting both would install a Tsunami-2 in my Atlas)

On a side note, think it’s worth replacing older decoders as new technology comes along.  My “problematic” Athearn Genesis GP38-2 has the old Tsunami factory decoder.  After seeing how well my GP-7 runs with the Tsunami-2 and the improved features, I will be installing a Tsunami-2 in my GP38-2.

Joe

Standardize-Not Really!

While it seems like a good idea to standardize your decoders, it isn’t really possible! ESU just released their V5 decoders and they behave differently from their V4 decoders which were different than the V3.5. Same is true of Soundtrax, the tsunami 2 has differences from the original and is different from the econami, TSU has had several versions of their decoders, they are up to version 4. So unless you buy everything at one time, you are going to have differences. And of course the factory installed versions are different still, with some of them being “crippled” versions of the retail product.

The good news with the new decoders is that you can remap the function buttons and some of the behaviour to make them close. I have a mix of various makes purchased over the years, I have found that I can make all the functions mapped the same, at least the ones that I use, but then I run steam and really only use the headlight, bell, whistle and brakes (where available) and I seldom consist them together.

Volume Control

I scratch my head wondering why NO sound decoders have a volume control.  Yes, you can set CVs to set the volume level.  But the volume requirements vary.  I want one sound level when I'm operating alone in my layout room, another one when I have 4 or 5 people in the room, another one at my friend's house, who has a layout 4 times the size of mine and 12 operators.  And maybe another level at a train show in an auditorium.

Why don't any of the decoders have an option so, say F9 is volume up, and F10 is volume down.  Boy, that sure would be nice!  

Disclaimer: I'm using SoundTraxx LC, SoundTraxx Tsunami, QSI, MRC and probably a couple others, so I haven't tried them all. Oh, and my MTH diesel DOES have Functions for volume up and down, but the lowest level is still WAY too loud for a small room.  Sigh.

Volume Control

Most ESU LokSound decoder sound files have a 7 step volume function. It’s usually not mapped to a function key.  That’s one of the first things I do when I setup a new locomotive.

GS

Standardizing

Brent:

“While it seems like a good idea to standardize your decoders, it isn’t really possible!”

I disagree...I have standardized on SoundTraxx Tsunami or newer decoders so I can implement momentum and braking, and both the sound and silent decoders function the same and consist together with out problem.

I do tune the locos after installing the decoders, and when consisting I speed match the consist, but they play very well together.

It is true that I’m limited to one brake because the early TSUs only has one, but none of the throttles I’m aware of (and yes, I use ProtoThrottles) can simulate the multiple brakes beyond dynamic brakes, so that’s not a concern to me.

The good thing

The good thing about installing decoders in the latest locomotive releases by most of the manufacturers is that there is space for speakers, capacitors and decoders as they offer DCC and DC versions yet use the same chassis. For example the recent SW1200 by Walthers has the blank speaker housing in place and there is room for a keep alive alongside. I purchase locomotives with decoders if they are Soundtraxx as that is my standard decoder if not I will purchase a DC unit and install my own decoder. I recently started using “Decoder Buddy”’s these great little boards make installing lights, speaker, keep alive(capacitors) much easier. The sub board allows the lights to stay with the shell(body) when removed. TrainMasters TV has a great video on these little gems and they are inexpensive. When I purchase a locomotive with a DCC decoder other than Soundtraxx I will usually replace it with a Tsunami and sell the the factory one on eBay. While I find all of the big three decoders work well I prefer to standardize with one and find the product support at Soundtraxx fantastic.

Thanks GS!

That's good to know for future decoder purchases!  

Re: Jeff outlined it pretty well

" ,,, while Soundtraxx and TCS WOW Sound default to sound on when the track is powered up."

My Soundtraxx decoders (Economi, TSU1, TSU2 (PNP) only turn the on sound only when they are specifically addressed by a cab.  Has to work that way, as having all the sound decoders turn on when powering up the layout is turned on would create a current surge that wouldn't be good for either the decoders or the layout.

As an aside, the sound on the Economi's and TSU1's can be turned off before the programmed shutdown time by pressing the Emergency button on NCE hammerheads.  That cuts the sound without forcing the next operator to figure out whether or not F8 has been activated.

Haven't yet achieved the same response with a TSU2, but presume that it can be done with CV's.

Standardize or not?

 I think it come down to personal choice. Some folks like the buttons to work one way and some the other. So who would get their way and who wouldn't if decoders were standardized?? Personally I'd just make the engines I want to consist compatible with each other using whatever was on the market at the time and let others keep getting what they want from their decoder purchases.In the old days we consisted engines without DCC so it shouldn't be that hard to do it these days :> ) ...DaveB

Dealing with sound decoders from different manufacturers

I have also decided to go

I have also decided to go with a standard for decoders. I will begin changing all units to Tsunami 2s and will be using decoder buddies with the new installs and the 21 pin plugs. My buddy Nick came up with some great equipment when he did these things.

I scratch my head wondering

I was doing a little test on a reversing switch a few days ago, and was using a small collection of sound/DCC locos of different brands. I was quite surprised at the difference in these locos as i placed them on the test track. Some had no volume,  some were overwhelming loud, some even moved. I guess that's a function of what was in their memory from previous operation, which is understandable when jumping between various locos on an operating layout.

BUT, how does one shut down a loco in DCC. Say you are putting one in a roundhouse, or in staging, and you want to shut it down until you want to address it specifically and go to use it??........Are you telling me this function does NOT exist uniformly among sound euipped/DCC engines?