Passenger function?

If the station is for passengers, why is it on a spur off a spur off the main line?  Surely there would be a requirement for through passenger service too. Which wouldn't  want to do unnecessary switching just to drop off an pick up passengers.

passengers

valid point Andy!

It is weird i guess but in the area I model (northern British Columbia) it's not unusual for passenger service to by off-mainline (and often off in the mud). 

also i sortof added it as an afterthought once i realized i had enough space to sacrifice that back area, otherwise it could be used for 2-3 industries. I might actually do a swappable structure scenario and turn it into industries anyway.

- Ken

 You are trying to put far

You are trying to put far too too much into the available space, giving you lots of turnouts, very short spurs and very small industries.  Better to have fewer industries, but with more spots per industry (so cars have to be placed in a specific order on the track, maybe also spotted exactly at doors or loading or unloading equipment).

It is also often a bad idea to have switchbacks leads that also function as industries, so you have to move away the cars on the lead (e.g. at the passenger station) to move cars out of or into the Kenmore and Promethius  (or however you want to spell Prometheus). There is also little or no room for modeling the industry at the team track of Tuffy's salvage.

But the main critcism is that is that you are trying to squeeze too much into the available space.

Smile,
 Stein, who also love urban switching layouts

cram packed

Hi Stein - yeah it is pretty jam-packed alright!  I wanted to have one or two of these "problem areas" that you mentioned, where a switchback lead is also an industry spot. This provides a bit more challenge n that you may have to clear that industry first and load it last so that it's car's aren't in the way for the rest of the switching.

The trick here is to find a good balance. Since it will be my only operating layout for a while I would get bored if all the switching was too straight forward, but I also want to make sure I dont' get too frustrated operating it. I should point out that it is definately NOT meant to act like a yard on a regular layout with operating sessions, so there should be SOME similarity to something like an "inglebrook" or "timesaver" but with a bit more flexibility so that it is not EXACTLY a PUZZLE.

I guess that's why I'm hoping some folks will actually try operating it using TrainPlayer and report back on whether it was fun and how challenging it was.

- Ken

 Well, Ken -  To me, what

Well, Ken -

To me, what makes a switching situation interesting is not having lots and lots of turnouts, and tracks running every which way. It is having an interesting scenario.

Take this dead simple track plan with one turnout:
 

Loaded cars for the customer will be put into a specific order, since the customer needs the content to be unloaded in that specific order for their production. Loaded cars will be placed in positions Pit, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5. As the car over the pit has been unloaded, the customer will release brakes and ride it down to the part of the spur where the unloaded cars are kept, and then roll another loaded car in over the unloading pit.

Sometimes cars have to be resorted, because the customer has to change their production due to a demand different from what initially was assumed.

Your train has just arrived from the right, with four loaded cars, which are to be put into positions Pit, 5, 2 and 4. Your task is to pull the two empty cars A and B, spot the inbound loads, and put the still unloaded cars already at the spur into the right unloading sequence.

 It is late, you are tired, and you want to finish the job as fast as possible. How would you go about getting cars sorted out reasonably fast?

(The sketch is based on a sketch presented by poster Zug at the Kalmbach Trains Magazine forum).

 And the situation is not dependent on it being an unloading pit or having cars roll past an unloading spot. The track could just as well have been a grocery distribution warehouse, where frozen goods needs to be unloaded at door 5, produce at door 4, beverages at door 3, canned goods at door 2, and dry good at door 1, with heating oil delivered to a tank at position 0. Or a company that makes candies, or a scrap dealer where different types of scrap are unloaded at different positions, or a track that has three smaller industries side by side or whatever.

 For some more ideas about car spot, see Linda and Dave Sand's web page about their layouts, especially the train briefs and spot diagrams for their Cedar River Terminal layout: http://www.sandsys.org/modelrr/modelbuilt/crt/

Smile,
 Stein
 

spotting order

Hi Stein - yes I see what you mean, I hadn't really thought about the spots as much as the industries themselves but this is a very interesting approach! I will read those links you suggested and think about this some more - thanks for your help!

FYI...

Dear Ken,

FYI, some "inspiration" RE simple trackplans and "carspot" switching

http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page103/index.html#tuningfork

http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page103a/index.html#chicago-fork

http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page98a/index.html#ho-chicago

http://oscalewcor.blogspot.com.au/search/label/NCIR%20TRACK%20PLAN

http://oscalewcor.blogspot.com.au/2009/12/modeling-philosophy-part-i.html

http://oscalewcor.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/generic-prototype-modeling.html

http://oscalewcor.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/op-session-1132011.html

http://oscalewcor.blogspot.com.au/2010/09/stretching-simple-spur.html

http://oscalewcor.blogspot.com.au/search/label/INSPIRATION

Hope this helps...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

I've been messing with.......

........... your trackplan, and this is one possibility:

Obviously I love brick canyons!. Red outlines are buildings, grey are roads. 

great links - thank you Prof!

great links - thank you Prof!

the pipopak refactorization

ooh yeah ! i like these improvements alot. The way you rearranged some of the industries makes it more of the "sorting" mentioned earlier in the thread, and the runaround on the diagonal run is a great idea. I might not be able to do it though since I want those expansion tracks out the front and back, but i am definately taking these edits back to the drawing board and see what i can do with them - THANKS pipopak!

ps - the roads are a nice touch too which should greatly improve realism

Brick canyon - love it

remix

incorporated some of pipopaks ideas here - need a few days to try it on the simulator

Pipopak refactoring

  Hi Ken -

 Your layout, so you get to decide how to do things. I see the following challenges with Pipopaks design:

 - Access and visibility is even worse than with your original design - lots of very narrow alleys, too narrow to get your hand into, trains and switching will have to be watched from the helicopter perspective, since visibility from front and reach will be hindred by all the buildings in front.

 - The design still has lots of industries, but very little "work space" - places where you can temporarily leave the rest of your train and inbound or outbound cars while you are switching.

 - The runaround is centered with room for maybe 24-30" beyond it on both sides - so there is room for an engine and three 40-50' cars to move between the two halves of the layout.

 The brick canyon effect is overrated, in my opinion. Yes, there are some places in cramped urban areas where a track squeezes between two buildings with barely enough room to get through without scraping into the buildings.

 But a more commonly seen configuration is having a wider space between the buildings, and maybe several tracks between the buildings. You still can get the urban feel without having the track running in a very narrow and inaccessible alley.

 This 3 feet long area is at the end of a 18" deep shelf. Three tracks side by side forms either a small yard area or serve two industries, with the middle track being a work track. Aisle is on the right. Small building at far right screen the end of the layout when seen from the aisle side

 

 Opposite end of the 11 foot shelf - tallish buildings along side.

 Buildings on both sides of the track, but not for a long distance. I originally had a 6" deep two track "canyon" at the end of the track, but decided I wanted more tracks at the industry on the left, so I made it less deep to get room for more track in front.

 In general, if you want to do switching, having tall buildings between the aisle and the track for extended distances is a suboptimal idea. I would suggest trying to get the layout organized like a theatre stage - stuff along the back and the sides, but open in the front center for access and visibility.

 But again - it is your layout, and you get to call the shots.

 Make some cardboard stand-ins for buildings (or tape sets together temporarily), print out your track plan full size (or take some pieces of flex track and lay out the plan), set it up at the height where the layout will be, put some cars on the tracks and simulate your way through a session. Things that looked good on paper or even looked good on pictures will often turn out to be a lot more cramped.

Smile,
Stein

Another Look

I'll throw in a few observations just for grins...

Something that finally hit me about your plan and its revisions is the high ratio of tracks to industries - nearly every industry ends up with its own separate track.  My layout's 25th St. Branch occupies only a somewhat larger area (it's about 12 feet longs but has a 4 foot peninsula off to one side), serves about the same number of industries, has about the same number of turnouts, but also has more room for the local crew to maneuver.  Two big differences - I provided the local switcher with a small yard to sort cars, and many of the industries share tracks with other industries.  There's still plenty of work for the crew to do, much of it because of the need to sort cars for the eventual shove into a spur.  A single customer can effectively function like multiple industries as well if it's set up to ship or receive from different buildings within a larger complex.

Maybe the following will illustrate what I'm talking about:

Here's an under-construction shot of the branch's yard, plus a spur at left that has four separate industries, of which three are visible.  No structures will end up between these tracks and the aisle, which is at right.

Above is a general overview of the entire branch.  Not that there are no turnouts on the peninsula, and it exists mostly for allowing structures to spread out.

I'm not suggesting my approach is inherently "better" mind you, just another way of using a similar area.

About Stein's reply

First of all: is your layout. Amen with that!.

 - Access and visibility is even worse than with your original design - lots of very narrow alleys, too narrow to get your hand into, trains and switching will have to be watched from the helicopter perspective, since visibility from front and reach will be hindered by all the buildings in front.

The areas I defined could be buildings or flat lots like junkyards or other industries that have everything stored outside and just an office. A car dealership is just a parking lot. So choosing "flatter" industries will help there.

 - The design still has lots of industries, but very little "work space" - places where you can temporarily leave the rest of your train and inbound or outbound cars while you are switching.

​It could be a shortline where blocking the main line while switching would not affect other trains.

- The runaround is centered with room for maybe 24-30" beyond it on both sides - so there is room for an engine and three 40-50' cars to move between the two halves of the layout.

​There is always room for improvement. I never built a layout out of the first (or tenth) idea.

The brick canyon effect is overrated, in my opinion.

​Nothing wrong with having different opinions, actually helps to "improve the breed".

Keep posting plan variations so we wackos can keep having fun!

Soo many great comments

Soo many great comments today! Big thank you to all!

My conclusion: I'm gonna try to start building this in a very temporary and flexible way so that I can try running some trains and then make a few changes and run some more trains, in an iterative approach, and keep tweaking it for several months before nailing down any track.

I'm already a big fan of using temporary "stand-in" cardboard structures, and in this particular case they will be a big factor in operability.

Man, i can't wait to get started! Problem is I have to coordinate this with some house reno's and need to take apart my existing layout first as I will have to reuse a lot of the track. So, I expect this will take place during a May-July kind of timeline, but I will definately keep you posted! In the meantime, I will spend some time with several variations on TrainPlayer. Thanks again for all your help guys!!!