mechanic_2

Hello All,

  My name is Richard and I am the President of the Reedsburg Area Model Railroad Club, RAMRC at ramrc.org. We have started building our layout. We decided on cab control because we are a public club and we want members and visitors to be able to run on the railroad without having to install decoders. I have been studying Dr. Chubb's C/MRI and I have started doing some experimenting with it. I am looking for information on setting up a progressive cab control system. Can anyone help?
Thanks,
Richard R. Pope, President
RAMRC
1230 19th Street #5
Reedsburg, WI 53959
608-768-7448
mechanic_2@charter.net

Reply 0
frwright

Progressive Cab Control

The original articles on PCC were published back in the 1950s in Model Railroader.  Generally, the concept involved having a shorting or multi-deck non-shorting rotary switch that you advanced as you advanced through the electrical blocks.  This kept your train powered, and disconnected the blocks that you weren't using.  PCC was usually tied in with route cab control, so that your route and sequence of blocks was established for the PCC before the train departed.

The multi-deck many position rotary switches are a lot harder to come by and more expensive than they used to be.  Especially at the current ratings needed for trains with multiple engines.

PCC and route control are not difficult to automate - the logic is fairly simple.  If you are already implementing some form of detection, the automation is not much more of a burden.  But it does to pay to read the articles and thoroughly understand X-blocks and the block switching logic that can be implemented on the contacts of switch machines.  Every block that does not need to be independently switched is a savings.

There was another DC system called MZL developed by Ed Ravenscroft in the 1970s (also published in Model Railroader) that might be checking into as well.  The MZL stood for Main, Zone, and Local, and was a pretty good cascade of control that depended on the task that it was being used for.

my thoughts, your choices

Reply 0
DKRickman

PCC vs. DCC

Your club knows its needs better than I, I presume, but I'd like to make a suggestion.

These days almost everything new is DCC equipped, or at the very least DCC ready.  Most folks starting a new layout are choosing to go with DCC from the beginning.  If your club is anything like the last one I belonged to, it is dominated by (usually grumpy) old men who resist that new-fangled DCC stuff.  Thus, a DC layout might seem the best option for the current members, but it could restrict or deter newer, younger members.  If I were starting a new club or new club layout, I would strongly encourage the use of DCC.  While it is true that most DCC decoders support dual mode operation, not all do and some have it turned off.

My suggestion, then:  Before investing a lot of time and money into progressive cab control or any other complex DC operation, I strongly suggest you consider the benefits of DCC on a large club layout.  Club locomotives can have decoders installed fairly easily, and I suspect that more visitors than you know would have DCC-equipped models already.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
JRG1951

DCC Vs DC

Ken Wrote,

"If your club is anything like the last one I belonged to, it is dominated by (usually grumpy) old men who resist that new-fangled DCC stuff." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard,

I am one of those grumpy old men, I resisted the new systems for a number of years. The cost and the state of the DCC systems has made a pure DC system a poor choice.. The cost and complexity of a progressive cab control system, will cost more than a reliable DCC system. The flexibility of operation without DCC will be reduced by an order of magnitude.

The first option I would consider would be to provide a service to your members and to the public to install decoders into their engines and wire the system for DCC. reliable dual mode decoders can be purchased for around $16.00 in lots of 10.

The second option would be to wire the layout for DCC with some section(s) wired that can be switched for DC or DCC operation. On section one DC controller. That way both DCC and DC users could run trains with a fairly simple system.

The third option would be to wire a progressive cab system with an eye on converting to DCC at a later date. The wiring and switches should be rated for 10 amps to be reliable for DCC upgrade. Trust this grumpy old man, DCC will be in the layout's future sooner or later.

The experience with these older system is limited to a lot fewer modelers and thus the amount of help will force someone in the club to be a design and support engineer. It will be like being a DOS expert in the world of Microsoft Windows. DCC is state of the art now and support is there from both modelers and the DCC manufactures.

Regards,

John

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Reply 0
Dorman64

If you must use PCC

in the situation as described, the original Linn Westcott presentation in MR circa 1956 may be useful as a background for learning route control nomenclature, etc., but the stacked rotary switch technology has long since been updated/replaced by logic-driven relay cards as part of the Bruce Chubb C/MRI series. I believe you can find all of Dr. Chubb's technical pubs and circuit offerings on his website (haven't been there in quite a while). Try C/MRI in Google.

That said, I would emphatically second the previous idea of offering to convert members locomotives to DCC at no cost to the individual rather than not build with DCC from the outset (heck, I'd even offer to remotor and rewire for all-wheel pickup if necessary). Repeating what may not be obvious if you have no experience with PCC - The cost of DCC will still be considerably less than any but the most rudimentary of PCC systems - and that doesn't even beginning to cover the cost and aggrivation of the inevitable maintenance headaches down the road. 

Lowell

Reply 0
wp8thsub

Not Worth It

Not only is progressive cab control unlikely to represent a cost savings over DCC, installation of such a thing is very labor intensive.  There's a reason only a few progressive cab control systems were ever successfully built.  Not many people will volunteer to string all that wire and assemble the rest of the components.  I wouldn't be sure all the members of your club realize there's a big difference between plain old multi-cab control and a progressive system, which is an order of magnitude more complex than the typical DC cab control that most people are familiar with.  

Rob Spangler MRH Blog

Reply 0
DKRickman

A wild idea, but just maybe..

Here's a crazy idea for you:

Using JMRI and free computer software, dispatching on DCC is fairly straightforward, easy to implement, not overly complex to install, and almost certainly cheaper than a stand-alone PCC system.  Of course, it's DCC, but if your club absolutely insists on being strictly DC, it shouldn't be that hard to do.  Install large scale (higher amperage) decoders in each block, buy as many DCC boosters as are required for the layout, and make simple serial port throttles according to plans found on line (or use smart phones).  The computer can then connect a given block to a given throttle (automatically, or controlled by a dispatcher) and allow unconverted DC engines to be run.  Then, to run DCC, all you would have to do would be to disconnect the block decoders and connect the signal bus directly to the track.  A DPDT switch for every block would do the job nicely.  Even better would be DPDT repays with a single master switch to "convert" the layout all at once, which would prevent one block being missed and accidentally toasting something.

It's a lot more complicated than a basic DCC installation, but it does give the best of both worlds, is probably cheaper, and certainly less complicated than a PCC installation.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
joef

I've done both

I've operated on both DCC layouts and a layout with progressive cab control.

The thing I noticed right away with progressive cab control is you still need to worry about power blocks - so you don't think about train movements in a prototypical way like you do with DCC.

Let me illustrate.

I pulled into town and I've got a block of cars for the yard crew on the back of my train. On DCC, I pulled my train past the yard throat, the yard goat came out with some cars he had for me, swapped his block of cars for mine, then pulled the cars I had for him back into the yard and I went on my way.

On the PCC layout, he had me back up and leave the cut of cars past the yard throat switch on the main. Then he got a long handle of cars (with cars for me on the end of this long cut of cars) and pushed them up the yard ladder and out onto the main to couple onto the cars I had for him, pulled them back into the yard, then pushed the long handle of cars back out onto the main and dropped off the cars he had for me.

The reason for the long handle of cars was to keep the yard goat from accidentally getting into my power block. That just felt very contrived to me, because we had to think about power blocks and keeping locos separate.

That experience convinced me of the clear superiority of DCC. I love being able to operate and just think like the prototype thinks. I detest having to always worry that two locos might accidentally get in the same power block.

As one who loves realistic operation, anything that makes me think model railroading thoughts while operating is a real downer.

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

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Reply 0
bobrat45

CMRI was "the thing"

I am a retired Engineering Electronic tech. Linn Wescotts Twin T articles from the '50's got me interested in electronics back then. Model Railroading has let me combine electronics with modelling, so that's my basis for saying this. (To sort of quote Leno)" What are you thinking of !!?"

The replies you have already give good advice. I am ripping out wiring from my layout and doing the DCC thing because it's the best way to go now. Certainly lower cost than CMR/I and don't forget the pain involved if a change to the track plan is made. DCC provides sound, control of lighting effects, mid train helper, consists, engineer routing (a bit too much for me) and built in passenger train lighting. Probably more but this is just what comes to my old brain. Tell the "old Grumps" to collectively "eat a bug" and give them a loop to operate their "legacy" equipment. And as one post mentions, you want to build for the future and younger modelers WILL go with DCC. At least that idea may hold for another few years?

That's my rant/advice/thoughts/and 4.8 cents worth (cost of making 2 pennys) for now.

Have fun and don't lose sleep over this

Bob T

Reply 0
George J

I May Be Wrong But...

Given the state of the hobby as it is today, DCC is pretty much the standard. I have a feeling that the number of members, and/or visitors wanting to run trains on your layout who have DCC locomotives will out number the ones who have only straight DC locos.

From a members stand point, adding DCC to individual locomotives is not that hard or expensive. I know a few modelers who spend more money on detail parts for their locos than the price of  a simple DCC decoder. As far as a DCC system for the club layout, as others have pointed out, you'd probably end up spending more setting up a progressive cab control system, especially for a large layout, than you would to provide that same layout with a reliable DCC system.

George

"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers, ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."

Milwaukee Road : Cascade Summit- Modeling the Milwaukee Road in the 1970s from Cle Elum WA to Snoqualmie Summit at Hyak WA.

Reply 0
j_pigden

just a thought

If you choose Digitrax, they offer the 'loco 0' option.  This lets you run a DC loco on a DCC layout.

Reply 0
ramboman

No alternative

 Z gauge has no DCC...  My 22 LGB locs are too cost and labor extensive to convert... And finally, if you have track detection and signaling installed, it's not too difficult to implement progressive cab control... Using one arduino per block, it's a simple question of well known logic : ask if next block is free, if yes, connect it to appropriate cab... if not stop at signal before exiting current block.  I am working at.

LGB fan since 1970

Reply 0
Joe Brugger

PCC

If you decide to build a progressive cab control system, take a look at the control sections at http://www.tslrr.com/

Wayne Roderick built and was operating a very successful system in the 1970s.

Reply 0
herronp

Reading through this thread I saw 1950, 1956, 1970........

It's now 2012 so it seems building a whole club layout using up to 62 year old technology is not a good idea.

In my opinion, anyway.

Peter

Reply 0
Rick Mugele

Chubb and CTC

A local layout used the Chubb system as that was the best way to get CTC... at the time.  Yards and branches are DC blocks with local DC controls and a toggle to select power from the adjacent Chubb block.

Another local layout is DCC.  Both layouts are the size of club layouts and are operated by the same group (grumpy old men) on alternate Thursday nights.  Both layouts seem to present the same number of technical problems.

Both layouts support my R/C battery powered locomotives.  So, I would suggest the Chubb system for the mainline blocks, with CTC.  Wireless systems are now available for those people who want to add sound and/or enjoy the benefits of independent control.

If CTC is not anticipated, it would be a good idea to use a very basic DC block system in combination with wireless locomotives.  Easy to begin.  Easy to add on to.  Easy to understand.  No expensive, exclusive hardware.

Reply 0
salty4568

DCC cheap?

Where do you guys get this "DCC is cheap" stuff? For some of us, it is still too expensive. Last time I looked at prices, the basic DCC sets have gone up quite a bit. Gee, glad you are all rich! How about sending me some of that extra money? 

Retired in the USA.

 

Skip Luke
Retired Railroader
washington State

Reply 0
wacampbell

I would also suggest going

I would also suggest going DCC for all the reasons mentioned already in the thread.   However, being a club, it would be worth it to arrange the wiring so you can have a loop or section of track isolated for attaching to a DC throttle.   You'll always have visitors or members show up who just want to try what they brought - an older loco, something under construction, some classic brass etc.   It adds to your hospitality if you can accommodate them.

Reply 0
santafewillie

My thoughts

As a lone wolf, I can get along with DC especially since i can't afford to convert 70+ locos to DCC, yet! As others have suggested, in a club environment I would set up DCC though. Offer to put a dual mode decoder into the grumpy old guys loco's. As much as I am committed to DC right now, I realize that it is slowly becoming a dinosaur in this hobby. While I may exist for the rest of my modeling years as is, a successful club layout needs to be DCC.

willie

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"Where do you guys get this "DCC is cheap" stuff?"

They are probably comparing it to the amount of wiring and switches needed for cab control? Add up the time you spend wiring all that stuff plus the cost of the materials and DCC does seem cheap.  For a club layout I'd suggest DCC with the members that are experienced in DCC helping the others get their locos converted. I don't think a DC cab control layout would attract enough experienced progressive  members to make it a viable club.Guys who can't embrace DCC are also likely not going to be very interested in cutting edge scenery or operations so the future of the club would not be bright....DaveB

Reply 0
barr_ceo

Z gauge has no DCC...  My 22

Quote:

Z gauge has no DCC...  My 22 LGB locs are too cost and labor extensive to convert...

Hmmm.... I think these 662 group members might take issue with that statement...


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Z_Scale_DCC/info

If you assume a layout with IDENTICAL OPERATION CAPABILITY, then analog control is FAR more expensive than DCC. Priced 10 position rotary switches lately? You'd need 30 or so of them on even a door layout to match the capabilities you get with even the more rudimentary DCC system. Then you need to buy the wire....

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Reply 0
Lattayard

Ultimatum

My modular club is run by a lot of the 'grumpy old men.' However, us younger ones were ready to convert. I personally was tired of having two fleets of locomotives, one DC the other DCC. After some back and forth, we settled in NCE. Now those same grumpy old men? They couldn't imagine life without DCC. Plus we're attracting many more younger members, and for the first time in years it's growing.

Hauling beer on the Milwaukee Road's Beer Line in the late 1960s.

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Reply 0
B Hutch Hutchinson

Hi Guys I use a Lenz DCC on

Hi Guys

I use a Lenz DCC on a Exhibition N scale layout and have for over 6 years and I will not run on DC controlled layouts this is the 21 century! DC is from the 19 th.

Three years ago my club asked me to set up the clubs layout with DCC most members now prefer DCC as its so easy to operate the only thing you have to do is change the points no rotary switches to worry about you just run your trains.anywere you want,and if you have more than one train running in any direction you only have to watch out for corn field meets!

Just run trains and enjoy your self,

Cheers,

Hutch  From the land down under.

 

Reply 0
steamrailroading

cost of DCC

A NCE power cab starter system is less then $200.

A PCC System for a large layout can cost thousands.

Reply 0
steamrailroading

C/MRI and Bruce Chubb

I have called Bruce Chubb a friend for more then 10 years, and am a regular at both OP and Build sessions.

Bruce does not use PCC, and would tell anyone who asks (Call him, his phone number is listed) to go DCC.

C/MRI is the ONLY way to set up a truly Prototype signal system.

To be a bit blunt:

If your club will not go DCC, quit that club and start a new one. That club is Doomed. Indeed, as president (and founder according to your website) telling people that is what you insist on will most likely swing enough votes to change the plan.

I belong to two clubs (Bruce's is really a type of club) and the Grand Rapids Model Railroad Historical Society. I have never seen someone show up and expect to run their locomotive.

 

Reply 0
joseph onorato

Progressive cab control

I suggest you contact the Tech Model RR Club of MIT (TMRC.MIT.EDU).  They have a progressive cab control system that is automatic - no toggle switches.  Processor keep track of the location of the trains and automatically advance the route around the layout.  The system was designed and built by members, works very reliably, is compatible with tortoise and other switch machines, provides cab signals, etc.  They have PC artwork for the boards which use standard available electronic components.   Regarding cost, the major "expense" of any system is the time required to implement it.  Obviously you have a budget, but spending money to save time is probably the best investment you will make when building a layout, and the control system is often the most time consuming component to construct..  Note that manual systems also work well, but require training and discipline to use successfully on anything other than the simplest layouts.  From my perspective the best manual system for cab control is a set of phono jacks, one per cab, for each block.  The North Shore Model RR Club, where I am a member, has such a system.  The layout is 90 feet by 30 feet, and there are hundreds of blocks.  it's simple to use.  Plug in each block for your cab as you advance along the route.  This handles both DC and DCC locomotives, with some special attention to the electronic protection of the DC and DCC cab power circuits to prevent damage when short circuits occur, and you can be certain they will occur whenever someone runs the train past the end of their block.

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