Quick Glance

Add additional feeders:

I have Walthers 83 DCC friendly turnouts (4 digit). The frog is electrically connected to the guard rail. Check yours with ohm meter to be sure.

Misc

The need for powering frogs depends for me on what turnout is involved.  For most locomotives, powering frogs on an HO #6 turnout won't necessarily yield a noticeable benefit.  I don't power #6 frogs on my layout.  A #8 is a different story since the dead area is much larger and enough to stall locos without good pickup from all axles on a side.

As for where to solder the feeders, I *think* you can attach to the side of the frog wing rails on the current Walthers/Shinohara turnouts (I think that's what you mean by "guard rails") and that the whole frog is electrically continuous.  You should probably check with a meter to make sure - one way is to run power to the wing rail using alligator clip leads and test for continuity, another is to test ohms as Alan notes above.

Yes you need one.  Some decoder programming doesn't necessarily work in ops mode ("programming on the main"), so you'll want a separate, or at least electrically isolated, track for programming purposes.  You can wire the programming track to switch back and forth from track power to programming if you want, or just make it its own thing.  It does not have to be part of the layout.

gaps

Show the relative location of the gaps--they are part of the wiring diagram.

Show a typical turnout gapping and wiring.  One does not need to repeat multiple times, but just show a standard unit and any non standard ones.

Terry

Re: gaps

He's using the Walthers DCC friendly turnouts, which won't require electrical gaps like the old "unfriendly" ones unless there's a reversing section.  In truth, the plan illustrated could run off only one set of feeders installed anywhere, not that you'd want to do that.

Club "Rule"

We have a very simply rule at the club: every individual piece of rail gets its own feeder.  You'd be amazed at the difference this makes!!!

Thanks for the comments

Thanks for the comments gang.  It's been very helpful.  Ill be sure to update as I make progress.

Anyone have any thoughts on suitcase connectors? Easy to use?  Good solid connection?

Turnouts

Can you tell some of us haven't bought a commercial turnout in a lot of years?  I went back to making my own when the time to modify a turnout to my satisfaction became more than the time to lay one from scratch which was before any DCC friendly turnouts were commercially available.

Terry

Suitcases

I use suitcase connectors for all of the feeders on my layout.  If I have several feeders in the same general area I will connect them with a wire nut and run a single pigtail to the bus to conserve on the suitcases.  I've used hundreds without a problem, so I'd rate them as reliable, and certainly less work than crawling around under the layout soldering.  Use a good brand like 3M Scotchlok. 

Connectors

We've also been using the suitcase connectors for new wiring at the club for a while now with no issues.

We also subscribe to the idea of a feeder to every piece of rail. Even if a rail joiner works itself loose this ensures 100% electrical coverage with no dead spots.

You may not need more feeders

Actually, I disagree (conditionally).  Feeders in the marked locations would not be needed IF AND ONLY IF all the rail joints are soldered.  Taking the top arrow for example, it points to the stock rail of two turnouts.  That same rail is fed from both ends on the spur and the main line.  As long as the joints are all soldered, a feeder there would only be needed if the two feeders already indicated are so far apart that there could be significant voltage drop due to resistance.  Assuming the drawing is roughly to scale, that does not look like the case.

The same is true for the other two locations marked.  They are fed via feeders on the outside stock rails of the associated spurs.

Of course, extra feeders aren't a problem, and aren't a bad idea, but they are not required either.  Assuming that the rail joints are soldered properly, the layout will work as originally drawn.  That's almost exactly the scheme I used in wiring my layout (I actually left out a couple of feeders that I felt were redundant) and so far it has workd beautifully.

Suitcase connectors

Matt,

I've used suitcase connectors on my railroad and they've been in service for three years with no problems.  That said, I've switched to soldering the connections since I got my pistol style soldering gun since it heats quickly and nothing is as trouble free as a properly soldered electrical connection.  Soldering joints is also cheaper than the suitcase connectors.  

Rick

I would use the feeders.

I would not trust soldered rail joiners.  The locomotives are heavy in relation to the size of code 83 rail, and will put stress and vibration on the joiners.  That same stress is not there with the feeders because the feeders soldered to rail are not making a mechanical connection between 2 rails.  Additional stress on joiners is the result of temperature & humidity changes.  If the connection cracks, it can be very hard to see to trouble shoot an electrical problem with a soldered joiner.

rail joiners and feeders

Haven't had a soldered rail joint fail in 30 years--on a bunch of layouts.  The only failures have been bad solder connections and these are randomly scattered over the layout.

I have seen a couple of kinks caused by using non kiln dried wood.  These were during the first winter after installation.  The rail joiners did not fail.

I had the occasion to examine a 16 foot section of railroad that was first constructed over 30 years ago.  It has been stored in an uncontrolled environment--a garage in Oregon.  It has been moved at least 7 times.  Temperature excursions have been from below zero to above 100 F.  No solder joint failures including several rail-rail solder joints made with no rail joiner.

I have researched wood expansiion due to change in humidity and wood and metal expansion due to temperature.  My results, both research and observation lead me to believe most of the issues due to humidity and temperature are over stated.

There may be some humidity issues in some parts of the world, but I have not seen them where I have lived.

Shifting subjects--Each small section of rail longer than the electrical wheelbase of a truck or locomotive does need to have a solder connection to the rest of the rail.  This does not have to be a feeder, but can be a very short piece of relatively small diameter wire. 

Note a lot of people now do not power frogs.  Motive power and wheelbase determine the necessity. I haven't powered frogs on my diesel powered layouts in about 10 years with no problems.

Terry

Good thoughts

Thanks for your thoughts gang.  I appreciate them greatly.  I've had some additional feedback that separating the layout into several blocks would help detect and protect against surges.  Using 1156 auto tail lights that light up when a surge is detected would be nice.

I an curious as to how necessary this step would be on a small shelf switching layout like mine. (2x10ft)

Question on soldering leads to rail joiners....

I was considering soldering the leads to rail joiners, primarily because the leads would be invisible and, secondarily, because I wouldn't have to worry about melting ties. (I'm using Peco Code 55 throughout and, since Peco 55 is really code 80 with 25 buried in the tie, I'm hoping the joiners will be essentially invisible once ballasted).

Now I'm starting to worry about that idea. I wonder if it's a better idea attach leads to alternate sections and solder those rail joints as well (may be a bit of overkill, but I'm counting on the joiners to help keep the track aligned precisely).  I suppose that I'd leave every second joint without a lead or solder, to allow for expansion.  That scheme would mean a maximum length of 36" from lead to rail and expansion gaps every 72" - wherever I have the self- control to not install a turnout to somewhere for an entire 72", anyway.

Make sense?

Suitcase connectors - thumbs up

Mike, is the Peco code 55 flex-track?

"I was considering soldering the leads to rail joiners, primarily because the leads would be invisible and, secondarily, because I wouldn't have to worry about melting ties. (I'm using Peco Code 55 throughout and, since Peco 55 is really code 80 with 25 buried in the tie, I'm hoping the joiners will be essentially invisible once ballasted).

Now I'm starting to worry about that idea. I wonder if it's a better idea attach leads to alternate sections and solder those rail joints as well (may be a bit of overkill, but I'm counting on the joiners to help keep the track aligned precisely).  I suppose that I'd leave every second joint without a lead or solder, to allow for expansion.  That scheme would mean a maximum length of 36" from lead to rail and expansion gaps every 72" - wherever I have the self- control to not install a turnout to somewhere for an entire 72", anyway."

Can you cut connector bars from between ties to allow you to slide the ties away from the point where you want to solder?  If you can move the ties away from where you want to solder, just move them and use wet paper towels, wet wash cloths, or wet rags over the ties as heat sinks.  When you then solder the wire to the rails, it is impossible to get enough heat to melt the ties until you have evaporated 100% of the water out of your heat sink material.

Russ, Yeah, it's flex track....

Russ,

Yeah, everything that isn't a turnout or crossing is flex track - and Peco flex track actually has cuts in the ties (more on one rail than the other - talk about "lessons learned",  it works a lot better to align the "more cuts" side on the outside of the curves).

Because the track has a really "odd" profile (it has both code 55 flanges and code 80 flanges, although the code 80 flanges are buried in the middle of the ties - and in the plastic connections between ties), sliding the ties is about as easy as fitting a 6 1/8" turnout in a 4 1/2" space - and that's on a a good day for sliding ties.

I'd shied away from cutting new gaps in the plastic for the same reason - it would take a surgeon's touch to cut the plastic without also cutting into the hidden flanges, but I could try it, I suppose.  My goal in life is risk destroying track (with a soldering iron) *before* I gunk the track to the roadbed and, at all costs, to never (well, hardly ever) solder against gravity (i.e., under the layout - some days, I get the feeling I'm spending more on suitcase connectors and terminal strips than on track, electronics *and* structures combined.)

I actually tried using hemostats (tweezers with clamps) as heat sinks and they worked.... kind of.  You could smell the plastic, but it was hard to see the deformity.  All that said, I know soldering is an acquirable skill, acquired thru experience, diligence and sheer determination not to be outwitted by a very simple 30W tool.  My problem is that I seem to be applying only 20W of effort to winning the battle - and counting on cunning for an eventual victory.

rail expansion + heat...

We do not solder our rails together due to issues with heat.  even if we do solder the joints, we STILL put a feeder on every section.  It's a good, solid RELIABLE connection we KNOW is good!

rail joiners with leads

 I am not a fan of using rail joiners with the leads soldered to them unless the whole joint is soldered. If later down the road some corrosion forms in the rail joiner/rail contact area then you will lose power to the track in that area. I solder all my drops(leads) directly to the rail. get some good small diameter rosin core solder, I'm talking something like .015 in solder. make sure the track is clean where you are going to solder the drop, I pretin the drop and rail before I make the connection. That way I use less heat to get a good connection. I solder both HO and N scale track without melting the ties. You have to hat a big enough soldering iron that it can transfer the heat rapidly so that you only have to be against the track for a second or 2 to melt make the connection. You need a good and clean tip on your soldering iron too. This is where a good quality soldering iron and good quality solder make a difference. 

  In N scale you can use 20 or 22 wire for your drops. I use solid wire for the drops. My drops are about 6" then they are connected to the larger bus wire. The smaller the wire the easier it is to solder it to the rail without melting tires.

  you can hide the connections after they are made and tested when you paint the rail and some can be hidden by a pile of "sand" or some weeds, things like that. If you look at tracks in the real world you see all kinds of stuff on them, sand piles, coal piles, grain, weeds etc.

Richard looking at MP 242 while working for the FEC Rwy. 

Arrow locations

My rationale for the arrow locations was any track between switches needs a feeder so as not to depend on electrical paths across switches for supply.

Connections

I have a friend who used suitcase connectors and had problems with them in a few months. That said, I have had many connection failures with solder joints in my life time.

The answer to connection problems is the type of connection has to be made properly. I know this is a statement of the bloody obvious, but it can be a source of failure and frustration in the future.

If copper is not tinned with solder or mechanically bonded, then the copper will oxidize. This corrosion will form a non-conductive layer between the joints. Many times the joint conductivity failure will occur later rather the sooner.

*There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry.
George Armstrong Custer

*Benteen, come on, big village, be quick. Bring packs.
George Armstrong Custer

Re: Connections

I wonder if he used a low-quality brand or had some installation issues.  As I indicated above, I've never had a failure, nor have we seen them on the other layouts I work on and/or operate where many hundreds of suitcases have been successfully used, and have been in place for many years in some instances.

While this is something to be aware of, also note that your house is most likely wired with copper, and that solder connections are probably non-existent outside of pre-assembled fixtures.  The connections are through screw terminals and other mechanical means (e.g. wire nuts) that don't involve solder, and we seem to get along OK with them provided they are installed correctly.

I won't argue that a good solder connection isn't superior to a suitcase, as it most likely is, but considering the savings in time and hassle I'll gladly accept the latter.  Crawling around under the layout soldering wire is a task I'd prefer to avoid wherever practical.

...

If you want to be REAL sure of your connections, tin, crimp, secure and then solder your connections!!  That's gives you a mechanical connection plus a chemical connection... Yes, it's overkill, but...