Good thoughts...

I am a member of several groups online, most notable the Yahoo Steel Group and the Tod Engine Steel Heritage group. The Steel groups have a store owner (yes actual store front) that runs a steel meet. There are two issues some of us have with this meet. The date is always Labor Day Weekend and the cost for 1 day or all days is $100. I have seen some great pictures of the shows, but cannot convince myself to fork over the money, especially since I would like to meet many of the guys including the promoter. NMRA also has SIG meetings that tour industries. Once again cost and location are issues.

Most people off the street would never know about these events. Even more would never pay for them before getting into the hobby. So some of us have begun a new group dedicated to Steel & Heavy Industry:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/steelmodelgroup/ The group is still being built but the intent is to conduct shows that are open to the public but model heavy industries, with a concentration of modelers in steel.

So while special interest events are virtually closed to the public, a group is working to put on a show for the public. I have already begun writing some background documents for industries to entice people in off the street. The good news is that, with a decline of some aspects, a few modelers are working to step up and fill the gap. I encourage everyone to join the above group if interested in heavy industries. We could use some help as the head is quite busy, and I have been tied up with work. This group should not be alone, and once we are able to structure a show format and some literature, we will be looking for others to do shows in other areas.

Stogie

death of the hobby

Seems to me to be a lot of talk about nothing. Sure, there arent many hobby shops left and those that are

have a hard time staying busy. Ebays the place to go for all of your hobby needs. Now, on the internet I have

contacted hundreds of modelers all around the world. Pryor to the internet talking to other modelers was a rare

thing indeed. I think  many modelers are "Lone Wolfes" and by nature dont seek other like minded people. Sure,

they would have friends in the hobby. But not many. Now, all a guy has to do is fire up the computer and he can

connect with Model Railroaders anywhere.

Rob Teed

Preorders

 I think one of the worst parts of the hobby is having to preorder everything and hoping enough people do the same.  For the person who just got into the hobby yesterday and wants to model modern Amtrak in the Northeast Corridor in HO, they missed their chance.  Atlas hasn't made the AEM-7 in a couple of years and Walthers retired the Amfleet passenger cars late last year.

I understand the need for preorders as no one wants thousands of unwanted cars sitting in a warehouse somewhere, but at the same time not everyone can be in the right place at the right time and in the right situation to get the locomotive or rolling stock their layout requires when preorders need to be placed. 

AEM-7

Several AEM-7 locos on Ebay right now.

Indeed!

Yup, pre-orders and limited runs are the bane of the model railroaders existence, IMO.

Sigh.

I didn't want to start a death of the hobby thread (I was being ironic in the subject...). I'd like to see ideas for marketing Model Railroading to help stem or reverse the only real argument that some have for "death of the hobby" - the drop in the total numbers of model railroaders.

Limited runs and pre-orders aren't fun, it would be nice if they'd make X% over the number of pre-orders (where in my imagination X is a low but two digit number) at the very least to make up for mistakes and late-comers, but one side-effect of them is the greatest number of high quality, different prototype models ever seen.

But I'd prefer to try and re-grow the hobby so that there will be even more demand for more models out there.

 I'm a recent return to the

I'm a recent return to the hobby.  I'd packed up everything when my "career" started.  I've since had a diversion to DnD, Warhammer40K, Everquest, World of Warcraft and at one point someone in my WoW guild mentioned model railroading and provided a link to a vendor's site (Kato, actually).  I needed a positive change.  One of the things I've found I really like about Model Railroading is the abundance of helpful attitudes and the ability to find fun in the tasks you need to complete to achieve your hobby goals.

I don't mean to do a "back in the old days we'd walk uphill both ways, in the snow, with no shoes" comparison, but what amazes me are the resources available to the model railroad hobbyist these days. 

* I knew about the shortcomings of the blue-box athearn models, but hey!  they were more to scale than the three-rail Lionel I started with!  Look at the selection you have these days!  Scale width hoods and people can actually nit-pick over window configurations and cabin interior colors.

* DCC.  Holy crud.  Just don't ever complain again.  What an amazing difference!

* The Internet.  Want to see trackage direction - checkout GoogleMaps and zoom right in.  Check YouTube for videos of your prototype or how-tos.  Check out this magazine!!! (thanks guys!!)  Order just about anything you'd want!  Add to that sites like trainorders, Railfan-Pictures, etc.

* Not only how to books, but how-to videos - if you really want inspiration check out the videos available to help with building your railroad.

Anyway, my friend in my Warcraft guild re-sparked my interest with a pointer at a website as a casual comment.  I talk about my hobby at work and talk about it with my non-railroading friends.  To keep my own interest I've applied to join a local model railroad club.

I don't see the hobby dying; it's surely a more mature hobby, there are a lot of options out there for people to do various things.  The best "ad" for the hobby are the people involved.  Don't be shy about letting others in on the fun

- murf

But, Jeff, there are things people don't consider

I picked up my first copy of Model Railroader in 1957. Compared to today, there wasn't a hell of a lot out. Today, the variety that is currently available (let alone what has been recently available) is staggering compared to 50 years ago.  Don't believe it? Find a Walthers HO catalog from the late 50's/early 60's and compare the thickness then to the thickness now. There are two completely new scales, N and Z (check out Trainboard - there are at least as many Z enthusiasts on as HO and the N scalers outnumber the HO guys usually by a 3 to 1 margin). Large scale really didn't exist (i.e. the various "scales" that use 45 mm gauge track).

Where's the evidence for a drop in the number of model railroaders? Fall in readership of RMC and MR and lower page counts in the magazines? It's gotten to the point especially now with MRH that those old print magazines would be well served going digital. I've got a copy of every issue of MRH since its inception. Maybe not a lot compared to the old fart mags in the business, but MRH back issues don't take up room in the house. Not only that, but MRH pages, being electronic, don't and won't molder (I can't say that about 50 year old MR's).

Given a relatively small overall market, and one that';s highly fragmented (people actually can model small class 1's like the M&St L, the Bangor & Aroostook, or the Central Vermont at least in the diesel age), it's no wonder there are relatively small limited runs. That wouldn't have been possible 50 years ago because the manufacturing was a lot more labor intensive (not to mention tooling for an initial run) and everyone had to make do with generic kits (with the possible exception of Slobbering Pennsy Freaks) that saw little improvement over the years. Production runs had to be longer to recover tooling costs. You can still build a 50's style Silver Streak caboose because the kit's still available from Ye Olde Huff'n Puff. Nice for nostalgia, but the caboose was based on an SP C30-1 and there are much, much better models of the same class of caboose available from Walthers and AMB. We can get stuff now that actually looks like things we once commonly saw.

We're in the midst of a golden age and there are so many people out wearing sack cloth and ashes. It just boggles the mind. 

Get a 50 or even 30 year old RMC or MR, or better yet, Walthers catalogs and then compare what was available then to what's available now.

Mike

Trains, trains, everywhere?

I often read, with great interest, comments about the demise of the MRR hobby.  Most of my reading is done on the internet.  I do subscribe to one of the 'old fart' mags, as well as haveing read every copy of MRH start to finish. I even browse the walthers and tranworld websites, just to try and keep up to date with what is actually available, and what it costs...   But all this is of little use to me... Because, you see, I live in Sunny South Africa, and I model the local prototype in HO. 

I sit and drool over my keyboard, to see a high quality, mass produced and R-T-R steam loco for $300, painted and detailed for a particular road.  I dream of owning a fleet of passenger cars that is detailed and painted to the T costing a mere $40 and what about stacking hoppers, flat and reefers in my yard, each not costing more that $20 (and if I let trainworld choose road names, much, much less than that price!) But this is all it is to me, dreams and fantasies... Because, you see, I live in Sunny South Africa, and I model the local prototype in HO. 

But what about the original question, is the hobby dying, and how can we promote it? In our sunny corner of the globe, the hobby is definately NOT dying! In the past, the hobby struggled to grow, due to extremely high cost of imported goods, and shipping.  Even IF you could see what you wanted to buy in one of the very few magazines available, it was always a problem to buy and pay using mail order...  We had very few hobby shops that 'wasted' floor space on the MRR hobby.  It was only the fortunate and elite that could partake in this fantastic hobby! Very little of the products from the USA made it to our shores, and only a VERY limited number of models were ever produced that caters for the local market.

As time went by, and the internet started to grow and more of the locals discovered the convenience of online shopping, there were a new breath in the hobby in South Africa.  Our local national model railroad convention had growing number of attendees and we even saw the birth of a number of new shops, catering mostly for model railroaders! but this is all for naught, as the is no national organisation in South Africa for model railroaders.  The only exposure we get for our hobby, is through our clubs and hobby shops.  We do what we can to have public open days, and have regular swop meets, numbers of visitor are growing.  And that is in my mind, linked significantly to 1 aspect...  the AVAILABILITY of good quality, low to reasonable cost products.  Hobby shops are stocking American, European and British outline items.  We have some local manufacturers, producing resin kits in short runs. We can even get a couple of our local locos in brass kits, or R-T-R!  But the most popular and largest portion of our local market, is the American outline modellers.  Why, availability and affordability...  Yes, I understand that a huge part of the hobby market is the mature crowd, with more disposable income, but a 10 year old generally does not have a couple of hundred dollars to buy a loco, and another few hundred to get a rake of coaches.  

I believe we need to entice the young crown into the hobby, not with super detailed, limited run, handbuilt brass models, with with good quality, affordable, and available models.  If it has some high tech and some gimmickery for the WOW! factor, so much better.  Leave the preordered fancystuff for the market they have, but why, I ask, not keep the good old blue box athearns, and roundhouse, and accurails, etc going?  Why does everythign have to go the superdetailed route?  for the 8 year old, all those details means very little. it is a toy. it will only become a hobby later, but the seed needed to be planted early, and then nurtured and grown. and when that child is of an age that he has disposable income, it is likely that he will return to the hobby...

Or so I think, in any case!

Marketing ideas

I've observed several hobby shops over the last few years and none seem to be following newer marketing trends. Communication and retention issues are most neglected.

As an example, while a local shop might know my name, they do not take my email address to send me a newsletter. If you are posting here, you've already given M-R-H some details that hobby shops should be requesting and using to keep their name out in front of the customer's thoughts. Let's see, I chose to get similar email newsletters from Athearn, Kalmbach, Atlas, and many others. Keeping customers informed keep them coming back.

It costs less to retain a customer than it does to bring a new customer through your door. How many times have you made a special order at a hobby shop and received a call when that item arrived? Less than 50% for me, which is a very poor level of hobby shop service to sell an item that someone really wanted to purchase. It's beyond belief when I walk through the door two months later and I'm told the item came in over a month ago. As I often submit a written order with part numbers, description, my home phone number and email address, there is absolutely no excuse to not inform me of the availability of my special order. Does this experience make me want to return? Not really.

Frankly, too many hobby shops start up with no real business plan. Actually, that is a good statement for many small operations. The venture may not be the primary income generator, or the owner opened up a brick and mortar operation just so they could get goods for their home layout at wholesale costs.

I had a retail music store for thirteen years and the focus was on the customer and what they need and expect. Friendly assistance, quick special order turnaround and contact, competative pricing, and a solid knowledge of the product were the primary features of my store. Very few hobby shops meet these criteria. I've approached a couple with ideas and services to help improve their bottom line. I do not request any compensation until they see changes in their net profit. The owners refuse or ignore my offers. These are basic, modern retail marketing ideas and many hobby shop owners just don't want to do that.

And before anyone suggests I open my own place, recall that I had my own retail operation for thirteen years. I'd rather not repeat that experience.

Eric

Real Purpose?

Too many small businesses don't really know why they are in business. That may sound like an odd statement but evidence abounds.

I would dare say most hobby shop owners, brick-n-mortar or online, would say they exist to sell models to customers. When in fact they exist to delight customers. Moving merchandise from one side of the counter to the other is merely one small component of the overall customer experience. And moving product happens to be the one component that all hobby shops do so there is no differentiation.

As the previous poster noted, the customer experience is formed by many things. Communication is a big one. Effective, consumer friendly, targeted communication is even bigger. How about friendly, courteous service? Almost a thing of the past now. And, as MRH is testament to, don't underestimate web presence. I find myself gravitating to stores that make my buying experience convenient just due to their excellent web storefronts.

At the end of the day product moves from their store to my layout while cash moves from my pocket to theirs. What makes the difference is the experience surrounding the transfers. Marketing of railroad modeling with respect to acquiring models needs to focus on the experience.

It isn't that difficult

I occassionally hear some people talking about going into business. They are told by some friends or parents that they are good at what they do and owning a business will be fun. Guess what folks, owning a business is work. It always was and always will be. Sure, I had great times with my record store, but I still had to make the next customer happy. I constantly told my workers (who were all college age kids) that we have to sell smiles. If a customer isn't smiling when they walk out that door then they may not be coming back. We always want customers to come back.

It is always about the total experience a customer has with and within a retail operation. If something rubs them the wrong way, or they get ignored one too many times, well the Internet has hundreds of other places to check out.

Eric 

Dying Hobby? I think not!

Every time I think about our Hobby dying, I go to the Big "E" in Springfield, MA for the Amherst Show in January.  Yikes, what crowds there are!  Many in their 60's like me but bless my heart a lot of 30-40's with their kids! Most of these are carrying bags of goodies out the door.

The parking lot had a ton of far away licence plates.  Texas, South Carolina, Minnesota, Quebec, and Ontario, Florida and believe it or not, Oklahoma! 

I also found out there is a 3 year waiting list to rent space for vendors!

Dying-I think not.

Peter

Marketing the hobby

Model railroad hobby

is evolving like everything else. This 2011 and we are in the digital age.

I do most of my buying on ebay or on line shops. I have a LHS about 12 miles from me but it is a LHS, not a LTS. Big difference. I get there for detail parts or call to order the Walther's stuff.

They cater quite well to many different hobbies. RC control of planes, boats and cars is quite popular. They do not seem to need a web presence. There must be about eight to ten employees, no doubt some part time as they are not all there at one time and most seem to know their stuff or will get an answer.

They also have a nice section for children's hobbies including the wood train sets.

A retired fellow in our club does DCC stuff for them. A retired fellow builds and modifies the train layouts in a back room.There are two test tracks for DCC and DC locos.

Moel railorading is quite popular in our area. A huge show is in West Springfield once a year with smaller shows in the MA and CT areas.

http://www.google.com/images

Rich

The Blue Box

 Right On! Have you seen the cost of trains lately? I just got done moving and had to update my insurance policy; guess what - I couldn't replace all that I have collected over the years at prices previously paid. Hello Hobby Industry!! Some of us are on Social Security and a limited pension but have a love nurtured since we got our first "toy" train.

Look at the comments that go with this reply - the author is correct and makes a lot of sense. There has to be a middle and affordable ground somewhere by someone who is not out to sell $700 Bershires. Give us a break; if we want to upgrade to custom grab irons and lots of detail, then sell that stuff separately. First, however, you have to get youngsters interested enough to put down their 'gameboys' and get into something creative and affordable.

I have seen it over and over again - when people come to visit, they spend a moment (on a previous layout) gawking and staring in awe. And it's all ages that do it! With a few comments to peak their interest and a gentle point to the local hobby shop and model railroad club open house every Monday evening, the interest continues. If we don't reach out in this or similar manners, model railroading with go the way of steam and my beloved Berkshires.

OMG!!  I'm getting sick and

OMG!!  I'm getting sick and tired of hearing people complain about the cost of this hobby.  That's a good way to market the hobby - complain about the cost of everything involved in it.  Yea, it's not a 'cheap' hobby anymone, but then again it really never was an inexpensive hobby.  Sure, the cost of things are higher today than 10, 20, 30 or more years ago in absolute terms, but then again so is almost everything else.  Loaf of bread, gallon of milk, can of soda - they all cost more today.  But with each of those the quality of the product hasn't increased along with the cost!  I used to be able to buy a can soda for .25, today its .75 - $1.00.  Same volume, same soda. 

Now I may be spending more for a locomotive or a piece of rolling stock, but look and the difference in detail and operating quality compare to what I could by in "days of old."  I guess unlike some others here who have taken to heart the old saying "He has the most toys wins."  I'd much rather have higher quality, better details and smoother operation.  All common characteristics in today's "high" price models.

As I said in my previous post, I have been an advisor to a local 4H club that is focused on MRRing.  I understand the hurdle that cost can play in getting started in this hobby. I constantly tell parents that once they are sure that their child will stick with this that they should focus on buying good quality items, not poor quality cheap stuff. Yet people seem to forget that you don't have to acquire everything at once.  I couldn't afford to replace everything I've collected over the years either, but then again I acquired them over a long period of time, not in one big shopping spree.

I had the opportunity to talk to an Athearn rep at the Columbus WGH show about the discontinuance of blue box kits.  I was told that the price difference between a RTR car and a BB kit would have been only a few $$, making it highly unlikely, in their eyes, that the BB kits would have much appeal, so why risk the capital to have them sit in a warehouse because of lack of demand.

I can remember buying my first brass caboose.   I couldn't believe I paid $56 for an unpainted caboose in 1983.  Was that a lot of money to a kid in college?  Sure, but I saw VALUE in what I was buying.  I look at it now and compare it to some of the RTR cabooses out there now with etched metal walkways, handrails and factory paint jobs that are half the price and realize the increase in quality.  i also compare it to brass cabooses produced to day that sell for $150-300 and think, What a bargain.

For those stuck in time 30+ years ago, I have plenty of BB kits that I'd be happy to sell (at today's prices) to fund acquisition of today's high priced items.  Just let me know.

I'm going to try again!

I typed a reply to this thread and then the site went down between the time I started typing and when I hit the "save" button. 

I was surprised to see that train shows were not mentioned until the 2nd page.  People must see trains to be interested.  Some may be fortunate enough to see real prototype trains running near their home, but many areas don't have rail service nearby.  If there is a railroad museum nearby, that may peak interest, but again there are many places where there are no railroad museums. 

Train shows are a great way to get out the message and allow kids and adults to see trains run.  There are a couple of different shows that set up here in So Cal that the modular club I belong to participate.  The club has grown from less than 20 members to over 40 members inspite of a few members passing away and others moving out of the area.   Virtually all of the growth is due to contacts made at model train shows.  Since the train shows are run by for profit companies, they do a great job of promoting the shows in the local news papers or local television stations.

Thomas is the new "Lionel."  Is Lionel even still in business?  If it is, it will probably disappear as us baby boomers die off.  The company forgot that they are in the business of making toys, and switched over almost entirely to the collector market. 

Orange Empire Railway Museum has a "Day Out With Thomas" as their biggest annual fund raiser every year on the weekend before and the week end after Veteran's Day as well as on Veteran's Day itself.  The modular club sets up every year at the museum for Day Out With Thomas, and the place is packed with families.  If you want to see what effect Thomas has on kids today, just put a Thomas on a layout and watch the kids as they discover him on the layout!

Marketing ideas

Not everyone who is in business had the luxury or the desire to go to business school. An dif they did they'd soon realize that there was no point to it since the whole point made by most vbusiness schools is that small business is too risky to get involved with. And that is why when the government talks about helping new businesses, they don't do anything but kill it.

Sure there are new techniques that can prove valuable, but most of those involved in small business have no idea where to learn them or to even see how they could help, and thus they can't use them or even understand them.

Historically, most of those who started businesses in the 19th Century had little of no school training. What they had they learned by doing and they wer very successful at it not because of the fact they had learned alot. But what they had learned was that to find out what the customer wanted was simply to ask the question. That didn't involve computers or experts who would first borrow your watch in order tell what time it was and how many hours they could bill the customer for.

Don't assume that because some one doesn't use the so-called "modern methods" that they are poor business people because they probably aren't. What they are is wary of the get rich schemes taht are often sold by consultants who know very little about any business.

The guy in the hobby shop knows he has product on his shelves that used to sell at a decent profit but that doesn't happen any more. He doesn't know why that is but he does know if he doesn't do something things are going to go down the tube. He also knows there isn't any competition because no new stores have opened recently. So what does he conclude? People just don't like trains anymore and he might as well close the shop and retire. Add to that that parents see the old time hobby shop as place to leave "the children" AKA Those horrible little monsters for whom the shop keeper is expected to provide free babysitting services and you've got a situation that is impossible.

Never mind that the internet allows one to sell stuff dirt cheap (assuming one can get any product for the lowest possible price) and you've got a completely different business environment than anything went before.

It's a whole new world that the traditional business model has yet to tackle. Bt lets leave government out of this or those unemployabhle lawyers who serve in the legislative bodies with nothing else to do to make them look busy will sc rew this business environment up as well.

Irv

Let's not get out into the weeds ...

Let's not get out into the weeds with debates over lawyers, how to start a business, or thoughts on how to solve world hunger. All interesting discussions, sure, but let's take them offline.

Let's stay focused on what the hobby needs going forward and how to promote it.

But I will throw this on the table ...

One thing that has been hinted at that I do think is relevant to the discussion of promoting the hobby is the differences between how the west thinks and how the east thinks.

In the west, you fill your head full of information and that's learning. We have great halls of learning and we send people there for years to get their heads full of information. They may know facts but they tend not to have much real experience with the topic.

In the east, learning is more wholistic - and the way things are often taught is through apprenticeship. You learn the topic by doing the topic and building up a rich personal experience in the subject. This is also more how the west did learning until the rise of the great universities in the last two centuries or so.

So that brings up a question - how might we resurrect the apprenticeship idea with regards to the hobby? People these days are becoming more put off by sterile learning environments that just fill your head with facts. The high-touch apprenticeship methods could be just the thing to attract new people to the hobby.

What might this look like?

Apprenticeship

Your suggestion of being mentored by a journeyman railroader is what I had in mind when I responded to your other thread about the Ops DVDs. It is fun to watch trains on the DVDs but it is even better if I learn something too. Your Siskiyou Line DVDs (Scenery, DCC, etc.) are excellent examples of this. They are in essence my journeyman railroader.

Getting new recruits in the same physical place and time as an experienced model railroader is the ideal but face reality. It would be a slow, expensive, arduous process. Not saying it is not good, just it has serious practical limitations. Mass advertisement is more practical.

To market the hobby you can use the same approach as the Siskiyou videos with a slightly different script. Follow the proven marketing route of:
1. Attract my attention
2. Peak my interest
3. Call to action

A well put together 3-5 minute DVD (better yet - YouTube) could check all three boxes.

One thing we have been doing in the modular club for

the last two years at least is to have a clinic after every meeting except a couple of meetings per year when we have a model contest.  Some of the clinics that have been done include:  How to super detail a plain jane plastic steam engine.  How to scrap off lettering from a plastic model to the railroad (taking D&RGW off of an Athearn r-t-r F7 to do one of the Penn Central F-7 bought from the D&RGW and just relettered for P-C).  How to install decoders and do a general tune up of both diesels and steam locos.  How to tune up a car to make sure weight is at NMRA standard, install Kadee couplers at the correct height, and how to adjust the height if it is off, checking and correcting wheel spacing on an axle to match NMRA standards and tuning the trucks with the reamer from Micro Mark to make sure cars are free rolling.  We also have started a monthly work session on one Saturday per month where members who want to build a module to club standards, but are not sure how to do it can be helped by the "old hands."  We have had clinics on painting and weathering equipment.  We even had a clinic on operations.  We have a number of modules with nice industrial spurs as well as a large yard in addition to a staging yard that is set up in the center of the layout.  When ever we have a set up at a venue that is condusive to operations, the club will organize an operating session.  In addition we actively seek to have members make suggestions for future clinics as well.

A few years ago I would agree with Death of a Hobby.

I no longer agree, Yes a number of old school model manufactures have dumped their product lines. Has any one also noticed there are more than a dozen new companies offering products in less generic quantities and offering specific runs for specific railroads.

I see people complaining the blue Box is gone!. Have you been to E-bay lately? blue box cars are on there all the time sometimes in groups and other times as single models. Two weeks ago there were over 100 varieties of blue box models on e-bay and if you check them once a week you may find that generic model your looking for.

The thing I notice in the world of Model Railroad manufacturers is their models and RTR trains are on the rise they just don't build a surplus of the models. If they did they are afraid they  would end up with 25% of their product sitting on their warehouse shelves for years just like the blue box models did collecting dust which doesn't make anybody money.

If appears now that they would rather be safe than sorry. Now they build their models in a you snooze you loose business. In other words if you order it now and we will reserve a model for you and if you don't order a particular model you won't get one, unless somebody else buys a few and then he/she sells the extras for a profit to pay for the one he bought or wanted in the first place.

I see the world of model Railroading evolving and not dyeing. It's change that makes the world go round and the Hobby is just doing the same.

It boils down to you can't make everybody happy all the time but you can make some of the people happy most of the time. It doesn't mater what is offered in RTR or in Model form not everybody is going to get what the want and if one person gets what the want now then next time may be your turn so make do and build your own. Someday you too may get what you wish for, Just don't hold your breath because then Model Railroader will be the ones dyeing.

Dan