Back to Basics

Dear Steve,

Hmm, interesting query. TSU2 decoders have 2 (TWO) overlapping methods for mapping any given "F-key" INput to any given Physical/Sound-effect OUTput. (The "Legacy" mode from the TSU era, and the "Flex Map" mode new to TSU2 decoders). It is (unfortunately) quite common for modellers to get themselves in quite a twist nutting thru such config missions, even with the "assistance" of JMRI. (Hint: Software is not a substitute for having a Clear-Idea of exactly what you need the Decoder to do from the outset).

As a starting-point, I reccomend:

1- Do a Factory Reset (Set CV8 = 8, then Power-Cycle the decoder)
so we're starting from a "Known starting position"

1.5- Retest the loco on Address #3, to confirm "basic operation OK"
(IE you aren't getting the unexpected "beeping" any more).

2- Confirm the specific Decoder version (Which Diesel Version?) so we can catch any "version specific" gotchas

With the above done, pls provide a list of the Functions (Physical or Sound-effect)
you wish to have triggered by "F-keys" 1 thru 9,

Download a copy of the Tsunami2 Tech Reference Manual for "read-along" reference
https://soundtraxx.com/content/Reference/Manuals/Tsunami2/tsu2_diesel_technical_ref.pdf

and we'll see if we can work our way towards your desired end-result...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr
Sydney, Aust

. . .

There is garbage at end of his link :

https://soundtraxx.com/content/Reference/Manuals/Tsunami2/tsu2_diesel_technical_ref.pdf

Marc

G'day Prof Klyzir an

G'day Prof Klyzir an Marc,

Thanks for your responses.

I / WE have the various Tsunami 2 decoder manuals including the reference one.

I am actually enquiring on behalf of my modeller amigo who is fitting decoders to his locos.

He should have acquired the Tsunami 2 Alco diesel decoder, however, it may be the Tsunami 2 diesel decoder.

He has inserted two of them thus far, one into each of his 80 class.

I have not yet been around to check out his progress regarding the function mapping attempts.

I possess Decoder Pro, but do not possess a sprog nor any DCC enabled locos.

He popped in to beg questions after suffering some quandaries with the function mapping.

Suffering the BEEP BEEP noise when pressing the horn function on his NCE Power Cab.

From what I could see from Decoder Pro, it should be a simple method of selecting a function number and then selecting a desired sound option replacing the default sound.

But, regarding the Bell function which he desires to remove, inserting another sound effect does not seem to work.

When performing this with my computer, the specific sub CV does alter to the new sound value.

But, as said, I am unable to confirm this without the necessary sprog and loco with decoder.

I will know more when I pop around to check out what he is doing, when available.

But, I was hoping that there would be a simple explanation for the problem encountered.

Steve.

In order of appearance...

Dear Steve,

Ah, "diagnostics by remote control", the eternal challenge...

K, assuming he's started with
https://soundtraxx.com/content/Reference/Manuals/Tsunami2/ALCO%20Sound%20Selections.pdf

this goves us a "starting point" to work with. Reccomend a "CV8 = 8" Factory Reset so we can at-least get back to a "proven working as factory-intended" state, THEN we can start confidently working towards the desired result.

For those following along who are not from New South Wales, Australia, an "80 Class" is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_80_class_locomotive

https://vicsig.net/index.php?page=locomotives&class=80&orgstate=N&type=Diesel-Electric

 CV123 = 6 would be my best-guess for the V12 251CE (century series) prime mover?

CV120 = 12, 13, 14, or 15 would be the best-guess for the Nathan P5 horn

Without wanting to be a smart-alek, it would appear the answer is "badly"...

Pls don't mishear me, JMRI/DecoderPro is a fantastic tool, just like a cross-cut or chain saw is.
However, equally, the tool is only as "smart" as the Human wielding it, the Software programmer will not "make the decisions" for the Human, nor will it somehow intuit "what the Human actually wanted" when the Human chooses some options which aren't what the Human actually desires. 

This is why I reccomend getting a very clear picture (write it down) of exactly which Physical Output/Sound effect is desired to be triggered by what "F-key" input,
and then, and only then, power up your DCC Programming tool of choice...
(I'd personally reccomend the PowerCab standalone, but then again I prefer to methodically "manually cross-cut saw" my way thru the process, rather than "throw a chain-saw at the problem and hope-for-the-best"...)

This symtom has me intrigued. Is the "beep"ing coming from:

- The sound decoder speaker (IE it's some form of "triggered sound")

- The decoder circuitboard (suggests some form of internal short-circuit?!?!)

- Some part of the loco mech? (get the shell off and listen close, high-frequency motor "buzz" could be described by some as a "beep", maybe screwed-up Motor Control settings?)

- From the PowerCab handset (weird, but maybe a Booster Overload condition?)

 Conceptually "cart before horse". Start by understanding that there are 2 (TWO) methods of re-mapping "F-key INput --> Physical/Sound OUTput".

Option 1 - "Legacy" mode. 
Uses CVs 33 - 46. (NO "Indexed CV" schannigans required).
The paradigm here is explicitly each CV represents a specific "F-key",
and the value of the CV does a 1-> Many routing to a specific (limited) OUTput behaviour.

 Option 2 - "Flex-Map" mode.
Uses CVs 257 - 321. To access these "higher than CV256" CVs directly/manually from the PowerCab,
you WILL first need to set

CV31 = 16
CV32 = 1

so the decoder works out "which CV 357" the User actually needs programmed.
This is the First Most-Common way contemporary "decoder programming" goes wrong,
and It is likely this chesnut is part of the "fault condition" equation in your mate's case.

NB Yes, using JMRI/DecoderPro should automatically set CV31/32 as required when programming CVs above 256, but this does NOT magically bypass the human's part in the "what we actually want to achieve" process...
(also not the first time a bug in JMRI has meant the "Indexed CV" setting sequencing has lead to things "not quite working as-expected"... One trusts-in/abdicates-to an automated-tool at their own risk... pass the chainsaw...)

How does the above related to programming in DecoderPro?

1 - For TSU2 family decoders, use the "Function Map" tab,
AVOID using the "Legacy Function Map" tab!

2 - As you go down the "Extended function mapping" column,
using the drop-down menus to select the desired "F-key" number, 
make sure to keep going all the way to the end, and set any "Duplicate" F-key entries to "DISable".

EG Lets say you want to move the "Grade Crossing" horn to "F5".
This WILL create issues because "F5" is already triggering "RPM+" by default.

Ergo, if you are committed to Mapping "F5" --> "Grade Crossing"
then make sure to REMOVE "F5" from the "RPM+" setting...
(set it to "Disable", or remap it to some-other F-key).

This is the Second Most Common way "function mapping goes wrong",
and is likely due to the Human "quitting once they find what they are looking for",
and failing to complete the process, confirming that there are no "latent/leftover cross-mapped F-key references".

Hint: JMRI does NOT "auto-clear" any cross-mapping of Given F-key --> TWO-or-MORE "Output/behaviours/Sounds"!

Rather, JMRI assumes that the User may Actually Want to have a given single "F-key" trigger more-than-one "Output" thing, even if that is NOT what the Human actually wants... :-(

See above:
(assuming we are starting from a "CV8 = 8" Factory-reset condition)

- SET CV31 = 16
- SET CV32 = 1

- SET CV298 = 255
(DISAbles the Bell, hitting the default "F1" F-key will do NOTHING.
This is a "sanity test" point in the process...)

Then 

- determine the CV (257-321) which relates to the Sound effect you want triggered by the "F1" key
(See Tech Reference PDF Page 119 for "which CV relates to what Physical/Sound/Behaviour Output" table)

- SET that CV = "1" (value "1" --> "F1 key", see Tech Reference Page 118)

Do you mean:

- "Explanation" of WHY the fault condition occured in the first-place

OR

- "Solution" (Get from Broken --> Fixed) to just-make-it-work ASAP

?

The "Explanation" ("Why is it so?") likely lies somewhere in the combination of:
- "Failed to set the Index CVs 31/32 appropriately"
- "Mixed Legacy and Flex-Map mapping modes"
- "Double-mapping of given F-key --> multiple Sound behaviours"

along with a dose of "Human trusted/powered-up an Automated Tool,
before fully Affirming and Documenting the Actual desired Result"... 

...but One could get lost "down the diagnostic rabbit hole" for days if not-careful,
esp when diagnosing-from-afar, with incomplete/inaccurate diagnostic info...

Alternagively, the fastest-path-to-"Solution" lies in:
- Reset to Factory (CV8 = 8) and confirm nothing is terminally broken
(IE the decoder does what he factory says it does out-of-box, there are no wiring issues, etc)

- Confirm exactly the desired "F-key --> Physical/Sound" mapping,
INC clearing out or "remapping somewhere else" any unwanted behaviours
(Don't just stop once "F0 thru F9" is conceptually mapped,
There may be other "now cross-mapped" behaviours which can come back to bite!)

- Programming Slowly and Methodically in consequence.
(PowerCab + Tech Reference Manual,
or JMRI + Tech Reference Manual,
either "set of tools" will work, it's your choice... )

Honestly hope this helps,

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

. . .

" - SET CV298 = 0
(DISAbles the Bell, hitting the default "F1" F-key will do NOTHING.
This is a "sanity test" point in the process...)     "

CORRECTION:

set CV298 = 255 if you want to disable the bell sound from being used with F1.

Setting CV298 = 0 will move the bell over to the F0 forward/ reverse light.

Marc

(PS. I was involved in that DecoderPro definition file. TSU2 Diesel)

Thanks Marc! (Not the 1st time I'm wrong, won't be the last)

Dear Marc,

Good catch, absolutely my mistake, thanks for picking it up... have edited my post above for correctness...

BTW, what's your thoughts about how Steve's friend's TSU2 diesel decoder got scrambled?

Happy Modelling,
Aiming to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Thanks for your additional comments

Ah yes, 80s descending down to Mugs Flat at Sodwalls back in the double track good old days.

Champions of the interstaters.

I had SMSed my amigo and he popped around and confirmed that he had indeed acquired the Tsunami 2 Alco decoders.

I remember now that we had to adjust the sounds when he first ran them, the default being for the 539T.

Plus, I altered the horn to the Nathan P5a, the nearest match.

You have provided a swag of info for us to digest.

As to CV31, we did not alter that from the default value of 16.

We earlier attempted speed matching for consist working.

Function mapping, NO we are not using the Legacy version.

There is one hiccup, in that his computer display of Decoder Pro is different to mine.

Well over a decade ago I downloaded the XP version when wrangling a layout using Easy DCC control.

The XP version being old does not offer the Tsunami 2 decoder option.

I also have the W7 version, but I think that the slight display difference between his and my computers may be due to my version being 64 bit and his W7 version being 32 bit.

Yes, there is nothing more magic than a trio of 80s working a Baal Bone coalie screaming in full dynamics.

But, his layout does not really afford dynamic.

It does offer heaps of shunting.

Hence the desire to relocate some of the more desired sounds from the over tens function keys to the under tens.

The Bell is irrelevant, dynamic not really useful, as is dimmer, RPM+ RPM- and Grade Crossing signal.

In lieu of such, he would prefer the coupler, coupler release, brake select, independent brake and sand valve.

Manipulating the NCE Power Cab throttle, and reverser, plus also the switches for the Kadee electromagnetic uncouplers under the track, and also an appropriate sound by using the shift key and function being too hectic.

We had hoped to be able by changing the function mapping to relocate the desired sounds into the F4 through F9 keys.

This by using the function mapping sheet and the down arrow selections under the specific sounds to move such to the lower numbered function keys.

He did attempt this and also disable the Bell.

But, that is when he encountered the NCE beep beep problem when then hitting the horn key.

I won't know in detail until I pop around to his place to inspect what he had altered.

He also has a number of puffer billies with the Tsunami 2 steam decoder.

The next challenge being to alter the sound function mapping for them.

Steve.

Recipe

Dear Steve,

Great info, many thanks. From your reports, it sounds awfully like both you and your mate might be running old versions of the JMRI suite, which opens both "Programming Rigs" up to possible:
- Bad/incorrect/invalid Decoder definitions
- Bugs in handling CV31/32 "Indexed CV" programming sequences

If you elect to use JMRI as your "Main Programming Tool", then updating it to latest Release Version is highly reccomended. I don't know about XP, but the current release version 4.24 runs fine on my Win7 Pro 64-bit and Win10 Pro 64-bit systems, as well as Linux (on Raspberry Pi) and even a "Windows on RasPi" hybrid rig...

https://www.jmri.org/download/index.shtml#prod-rel

Moving on....

Soo, to start the party, we want to REMOVE
(Tech Ref Manual : Page 121)

- "Bell" sound (CV 1.298 : Default Value = "1" - Default F-key = F1)
- "Dynamic Brake" sound/braking (CV 1.299 : Default Value = "4" - Default F-key = F4)
- Lighting "Dimmer" (CV 1.273 : Default Value = "7" - Default F-key = F7)
- "RPM+" sound (CV 1.285 : Default Value = "5" - Default F-key = F5)
- "RPM -" sound (CV 1.286 : Default Value = "6" - Default F-key = F6)
- "Grade Crossing Signal" sound (CV 1.278 : Default Value = "9" - Default F-key = F9) 

and replace them with 

- "Coupler" (CV 1.305 : Default Value = "13" - Default F-key = F13)
- "Coupler release/Uncouple" (CV 1.306 : Default Value = "13" - Default F-key = F13) 
- "Brake Select/Train Line" (CV 1.283 : Default Value = "12" - Default F-key = F12)
- "Independent brake" (CV 1.275 : Default Value = "11" - Default F-key = F11)
- "Sand valve" (CV 1.309 : Default Value = "21" - Default F-key = F21)

I Note that we are removing/disabling 6 (SIX) sound effects,
and replacing them with 5 (FIVE) effects, so we're going to end up with a "not mapped" button somewhere...

Anywho, assuming you're starting with a fully Factory-Reset decoder
(CV8 = 8, + Power Cycle, you know the drill)

AND assuming we're doing a straight "1 --> 1" replacement of the lists above as writ,

you'll want to program the following CVs with the values listed below :
(In the Exact Sequence listed!)

- SET CV120 = 14 (Nathan P5A horn)
- SET CV123 = 6 (V12 251C "Century Series" prime mover)

- SET CV31 = 16
- SET CV32 = 1

- SET CV298 = 255 (Disables "BELL")
- SET CV299 = 255 (Disables "Dynamic Brake")
- SET CV273 = 255 (Disables "Lighting Dimmer")
- SET CV285 = 255 (Disables "RPM +")
- SET CV286 = 255 (Disables "RPM -")
- SET CV278 = 255 (Disables "Grade Crossing Signal")

This SHOULD leave the decoder with the following "F-key 0-9" behaviour
(Test to confirm!)

F0(Forward) = Front Headlight
F0(Reverse) = Rear Headlight
F1 = No Response
F2 = "Horn"
F3 = "Short Horn"
F4 = No Response
F5 = No Response
F6 = No Response
F7 = No Response (check Headlights for NO "Bright/Dim" state-change behaviour)
F8 = "Audio Mute"
F9 = No Response
F0 = Headlight On/Off

IF the decoder does NOT behave as-listed above at this point, STOP.
There is something Wrong with the programming process being used,
and any further programming is Dubious until that is resolved!
Don't muddy the diagnostic waters by trying to press-on, work out What is Happening NOW...

Assuming the decoder IS behaving as listed, and dutifully following the Programming Changes as-issued,
let's try to get the Desired Sounds/Behaviours onto those "No Response" F-keys, in some logical order for use on a NCE "HammerHead" (PowerCab/ProCab) throttle.

Program the following CVs with the values listed below :
(In the Exact Sequence listed!)

- SET CV31 = 16
- SET CV32 = 1
(Yes, I know you set these already, but I reinforce this every time I do a "Indexed CV" programming sequence,
to ensure that "everyone's on the same page, Human and Decoder Alike"...).

- SET CV275 = 5 (Maps "F5" key --> "Independent Brake")
- SET CV305 = 6 (Maps "F6" key --> "Coupler")
- SET CV306 = 6 (Maps "F6" key --> "Uncoupler")
- SET CV283 = 7 (Maps "F7" key --> "Brake Select/Trainline brake")

Now, I've chosen those specific "F-keys" because:
1 - They are on their own "line" of numpad buttons on the Powercab
2 - They are in a logical sequence L> R on the NCE throttle numpad
(You brake your loco to a stop, make the coupling, then charge the train-line brakes...
..IE hit buttons 5, 6, and 7 in order as the shunting occurs...) 

Sooo, we only have to place the "Sand Valve" somewhere, and as we have F-keys 1, 7, and 9 available,
I guess it comes down to how much "Sanding" the User is doing, and how frequently they will want to "find the Sanding button". Personally, I'd put it on "F9", so:

- SET CV309 = 9 (Maps "F9" key --> "Sander Valve")

Now, retest, using the below as your guide to "what you expect Where"

F0(Forward) = Front Headlight
F0(Reverse) = Rear Headlight
F1 = No Response
F2 = "Horn"
F3 = "Short Horn"
F4 = No Response
F5 = Independent Brake
F6 = Couple/Uncouple
F7 = Train-Line brake
F8 = "Audio Mute"
F9 = Sander Valve
F0 = Headlight On/Off

The above ensures there are no "F-key cross-mapping" duplicates, except the special-case of "Couple/Uncouple", 
which matches the same paired-function's OEM/"Factory Default" mapping on F13...

...and if all-is-well, you have the desired sounds on "F-keys 0-9",
and no "random beeping" from the decoder,

then hopefully you're a lot further along in "getting to where you want the loco to be",
and can adjust from here to confidently tweak any "Sure, they're on F-key 0-9, but there's not on Exactly The F-key I want" issues...

BTW, once you've finished programming all those Indexed CVs, make sure to return CV32 to "0" (Zero).
it's just "Good Programming Practise"/"Digital Hygiene", and means you avoid a "what the?!?!?" moment the next time you head into Programming Land...

I hope this helps...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

. . .

There is absolutely no difference in the JMRI versions for what ever version of Windows (32 or 64 bit, XP or W10) you might be running.  There is a difference in the GUI (Graphic User Interface) between a  MAC/LInux and Windows version of JMRI. 

One of you might be running a very old and dated version of JMRI  if you are both under Windows.

This whole thread has too much froth in it and very little re trouble shooting.  I do not believe anything is scrambled at the decoder level, just inexperienced users.  We do not even have confirmation WHO is  generating the  BEEPS  but it sounds like the NCE Throttle (Powercab) is the one.

I would start be attempting to  disable the BELL on F1 to see if this simple task can be completed and if the beeping NCE throttle starts to cooperate with you.  Is it a Powercab used as a Powercab or a Power cab used with a Power Pro/House system or some other NCE gizmo

Marc

OK success

G'day again,

My amigo popped around this arvo to advise that he had finally achieved success.

He had phoned DCC The Guru.

Where he had erred, after disabling the Bell in F1, he had apparently attempted to relocate the Long horn to F1.

And, also the short horn to F2.

This is apparently NOT permitted.

And, resulted in the NCE Power Cab "beep beep" noise.

SO, now he has Dynamic Brake shoved into F1.

And, the two brake valve sounds into F4 and F5.

The two coupler sounds into F6 and F7.

I suggested leaving the Mute in F8 so that he can easily switch off the audio if desired.

And, the Sand valve is shoved into F9.

He is now happy with the results.

And will shortly attack the soot belcher noises for his puffer billies.

Thanks for all of your assistance.

Steve.