Switchers

Switch eNgines with clasp brakes are way better than engines with a single shoe on each wheel.

EMD's are better than GE's for both loading and getting on and off.

Brakes

To my eye they look better too. More muscular. Fills up the area.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=5062231

I'm the other kind of engineer

But one locomotive engineer I worked with at the Southern called GEs "toasters", because in his opinion, "GE makes a good toaster, but when it comes to locomotives, they should stick to toasters."

Another loco engineer said he much preferred Alco RS3s for road switching, but when it rained he had to wear a rain coat even if he never got out of his seat, because even with the windows closed he got wet. 

Most loco engineers I've talked to will take an SD40-2 any day.

Me, most of my limited throttle time is on butthead EMD switchers, so I really can't comment on other engines.

Scott Chatfield 

Very Loaded Question

Have to be careful with this one. 

Ever ask a Chevy guy what he thinks of the new Ford? 

I get to travel to many of our properties to work with operational changes and sometimes that means bringing in different power, its amazing how many crews will tell you a ES44AC can not out pull a SD40-2..Seriously I have had the conversation many times. One crew was deliberately trying to sabotage the test.

So many variables in the question, clasp brakes are better then single shoe but if you are only in mainline service it really isnt a factor. GEs load slow vs EMD, but then again road vs yard? Also age is a huge factor, service application, age, service history etc etc etc

Spending most of my railroad life to date on short lines I have two personal favorites when it comes to operations and serving customers.  SD40-2s and GP38-2s  

I agree with the previous

I agree with the previous poster Bob: Sd-40s for the road and GP-38s for local/switching. EMDs always seemed to be more reliable with less problems and they loaded up quicker and rode better than GEs. But my favorite short line locomotives were/are GP-15s or SW 1500s which handle tight industry curves and poor track which is usually the case on regional/shortline railroads. I really enjoyed the visiability and smooth ride of SWs riding on road trucks and the cab height gave me a better view of road crossings and my conductor when switching. Oddly enough crews often enjoyed running backward as the lead engine (when mued up to another unit)  due to the great visibility of several windows.

While I generally ran smaller power I also ran SD-45s and a few Alcos on a couple of roads but if possible stayed away from GEs. Old Alco road switchers were fun because they pulled well and had the old idle sounds which sounded almost like the engine (prime mover) was going to stop any minute but kept on running. I also enjoyed the dark. black, oily exhaust of these engines which was particularly annoying to some of the public when switching over road crossings too long. Another thing about any locomotive which sits idling for a long time is the buildup of oil and carbon around the exhaust stack and manifold which after initial movement would spue out some really disgusting stuff under load. Frequently when pulling hard with a heavy train going up grade this crud would ignite (harmlessly) and shoot flames several feet into the air! It made quite a site on a dark night and caused more than one "mistaken fire alarm" for local fire departments when the public saw the spectacle of flames and thought the engine was on fire. Usually, after burning off the carbon everything settled down and the fire quit.

While I did get some training on big road locomotives before I retired, I never ran ran a heavy, long, DPU (distributed power unit) train but I understand from younger, engineer friends that the computer now pretty much runs the train ... with engineer backup on the road. I don't envy modern railroaders who have to handle these monster trains and make setouts and pickups enroute but I guess that's "progress"??

Just some thoughts from an old "rail" engineer. 

Barry 

The talk about GEs loading

The talk about GEs loading slower than EMDs is not accurate for modern power (GEVO vs ACe).

It doesn't matter much what you do with the throttle of a Dash 9 since it's going to load on its own schedule in order to protect the equipment. The rule is three seconds between notches and you can get dinged for rapid throttle movement, but on some territories if you're waiting the ten seconds between dynamics and throttle then spending 24 seconds getting to notch 8 you lost all your momentum going up the hill. The proper technique is to wait until the consist is pointed uphill and skin it back.

Now for the newer stuff it will actually load quickly. An ES44C4 will outrun a GP60 with a similar light load, and GP60s will get up and move once they hit 5 mph. The other GEVOs load up almost as quick and certainly way quicker than Dash 8s or 9s.

Distributed power trains can be challenging but once you figure it out they're easy. It's mainly knowing your territory. We have certain areas where you are required to run the distributed power consist separately from the head end consist because the train has a tendency to break in two in those locations. Otherwise it's common to keep the DP consist married up to the head end. I always keep them split so I have better control of the slack. 

Now the real fun comes when you have a 1x2 DP train or the dynamics don't work on the lead consist. You earn your pay on those days.

Limited Exposure

All of my experience came from a small roster of GP9’s and SD9’s, so my exposure to newer equipment is limited. However, our stuff did have some newer upgrades like hot start and a computerized wheel slip control program. Sure they were old and relatively light and low on hp by modern standards, but don’t underestimate what a well-maintained old Geep can do. They load quick, ride smooth, rarely have issues, plenty of room in the cab and the heat always works well! I learned to love them, and that heavily affected my modeling choices after I left the industry.
 

All I had to do was brag on

All I had to do was brag on the ES44C4 handling a light load then I catch one on a grain train. Caveat time: they are awful handling anything heavy, especially if the weather is bad. Wheelslip city.

SD40-2

Hands down my favorite locomotive to run. I wasn't so sure when they got removed from road service to yard service but they are actually decent locomotives in yard service. But the visibility of a SW1500 running backwards can't be beat.

2 SW1500's are just about the same length as a SD40-2.

Yard service = SW1500  with cast iron brake shoes or a matched pair with composite shoes. Yes there's a big difference.

Road service= SD40-2. Good pulling power, comfortable to sleep when you kick your feet up on the heater as long as you bring a roll of duct tape to seal the doors...

Also they had a pretty decent method of heating up food on the oil cooler. Stick a meal in at the beginning of the run, 4-5 hours later it will be hot ( some guys even cooked raw steaks on Ziploc bags). Meanwhile on a GE, you'd be lucky to find a warm spot to hear your food. 

Favorite sound

A Baldwin switcher.  It sounded like somebody beating a slow cadence on a empty 55 gal drum with a hammer.

Bung bung bung bung bung bung …..

Computerization

 This sounds like a difficult thing to do. Like running two trains at once but keeping them exactly speed matched.

I keep forgetting about the computers in the most modern iron, but it has already been mentioned in this thread. It was the same with a previous thread about some de-rated locomotives being done with a quick software change.

It makes sense that silicon chips are involved at some level in running a current version diesel electric locomotive. I mean look at our own newer automobiles and household appliances. You can't get some of them now due to waiting on chips from Malaysia or whatever. I know pilots that tell me a modern airliner will fly the entire mission profile from take off to landing by itself if you program for that.

This sounds like a difficult

It is but it's not hard once you get used to it. The key is to never use more dynamics on the rear than on the front. Keeping the slack bunched up is better than letting slack run out. Territory where you have hogbacks or a long slope with a little section of valley in it are dangerous and those places get a reputation for broken knuckles. 

I can chime in later with some discussion about Trip Optimizer if anyone is interested. 

Ryan, that would be

Ryan, that would be interesting. Please post.

Barry

C4s are trash

Anything with all the traction motors is better than the C4s that we have.  Besides the constant wheel slip, the pistons on the weight management system break all the time.  I saw a 3700? Brand new C4 with busted piston rods already.  

Trip Optimizer is GE's (for

Thanks, Ryan very

Thanks, Ryan very interesting. It likely makes train handling easier ?

I agree about the conductor. Running monster heavy, trains making setouts/pickups is rediculus and a conductor is definitely required. Two eyes in the cab are always much better than just one.

Barry

I spent years in the yard

I spent years in the yard while PTC and T.O. were being "perfected" so I missed out on a lot that caused many of my peers to resent those tools. When you have to deal with the consequence of T.O. breaking your train in half on the side of a hill or PTC putting your key train in emergency multiple times requiring a walking inspection of both sides of the train each time, it's hard to think of the good. I didn't leave the comfort of the yard and a fixed schedule until after COVID-19 so I had a lot to relearn about running trains at track speed again. Some of it is like riding a bike and you just don't forget, but other things take time. I've seen T.O. do things with DP trains I didn't think could be done. You just have to know exactly where and when you can do it. Little insights like that are just another arrow in the quiver so to speak. 

PTC giving you the stopping and warning distances can be helpful, but other times it feels like it's way too conservative, especially when you have to squeeze a 9000' train into a 9200' siding. PTC won't really let you move within a couple hundred feet of the signal unless you're under 1 mph. I had an even tighter fit than that recently where I had to get authority to pass the signal from the dispatcher so I could turn PTC off temporarily (actually, put PTC in Restricted Mode). I didn't pass the signal, I just had to get really close. Once I was stopped I gave the authority back and the train we met was able to get by. 

I was in for a rude awakening when I came back to the road because I was used to running my territory before PTC and the signals and switches responded a lot quicker. You could make rolling meets a lot easier then. Since our run is long enough we aren't going to hit overtime the idea was you made your money when you took the call so best to get over the road a quick as possible. Well those days are over! You not only have to wait for the signal you can't even respond then because there's a delay between the signal you're staring at and the PTC monitor in the cab.

I was stopping a train at a red signal while another passed me and got down to 15 mph about a quarter mile from the signal. This was a light train and I had it easily under control. The signal goes clear so I immediately come out of dynamics. PTC senses the increased stopping distance and puts my train in emergency! I look at the monitor and PTC shows a red signal. I look at the actual signal and it's still clear. I recover the air, report the problem and we go on our way. Since then I don't react to the signal alone. I wait for the signal and PTC. 

PTC has evolved to be a great tool, but it could be improved, especially in how it communicates a speed restriction ahead. For example, if you will be entering the siding ahead and stopping in the clear at the other end of the siding, PTC tells you that the next restriction is "AUTHORITY 40MPH" which is based on the signal indicating diverging approach. The turnout speed on that siding might be 25 mph and there might be a temporary 10 mph on the frog but PTC won't tell you that until after you've passed the diverging approach signal because the turnout is located 25 feet beyond the signal and the frog is another 100 feet or so beyond the switch points. As you pass the diverging approach signal PTC will say "NEXT RESTRICTION: TURNOUT 25MPH" and give the countdown distance as you close in on it then, "NEXT RESTRICTION: FORM A 10MPH" as you close in on the frog.

Now PTC won't let you exceed the stopping distance for those upcoming speed restrictions even though it's not telling you what they are. After all, the next restriction it sees is the signal, and the turnout 25 feet and the frog 125 feet past the signal aren't the "next restrictions" technically, even though to the engineer the 10 mph restriction is the one that matters.

So if you find yourself in the position of having overlooked the 10 mph on the frog and are coming toward the signal planning on hitting the switch at 25 mph PTC is going to start chirping at you that you're speeding but not tell you why. You think you're doing fine but you forgot about the 10 mph. Now is not the time to go rifling through your paperwork to figure out why PTC thinks you're speeding. It's time to get the train under control. 

Now for a bit of context for those who don't railroad. If you run a red light on the street or get caught speeding 42 mph in a 30 mph zone you get a ticket or a court summons and you typically pay a fine. But unless you accumulate a bunch of these violations or some really egregious violations you'll continue to be able to operate a motor vehicle on the road without any difficulty other than being a little poorer. 

That is not how it works on the railroad. If you pass a signal indicating stop without authority (run a red light) you are immediately pulled from service and decertified for a minimum of 15 days up to 30 days while the matter is investigated. You cannot work as an engineer or a conductor (also a position that requires FRA certification). Instead you can only work as a brakeman or a yard helper. Depending on the severity of the violation the carrier may move for dismissal. If you run another signal later on in your career the company will likely dismiss you. 

Speeding is also much more serious on the railroad. If the prescribed speed is 30 mph you can't go any faster, though some allowance of 2-3 mph is made for speedometer accuracy. If you exceed the prescribed speed by 5 mph the conductor is required by rule to place the train in emergency. If the prescribed speed is exceeded by 10 mph or more both crew members will be decertified at a minimum and other discipline will be handed down up to dismissal.

So when we talk about speeding or running red lights it is far more serious on the railroad than it is on the highway. 

How would anyone know if you run a red light or speed? The signal system will prompt the dispatcher if a block is shunted where no authority was given for that block. Speeding was easier to get away with before GPS and PTC because unless somebody was doing the math between any two signals there was no system in place to communicate in real time that a violation had occurred.

Enter "the tapes."

The tapes are an on-board record of the train's telemetry. Think of it like the "black box" recovered from a plane crash along with the cockpit voice recorder. Any movement of the throttle, setting or releasing the brakes, ringing the bell, sounding the horn, your speed, etc., is recorded on the tapes (probably been a long time since it was actually reels of magnetic tape, but then again we also call crossing signs whistle boards). "Pulling the tapes" used to be a manual process where the road foreman would have to come to the locomotive and manually download it. Those days are over. 

Now the tapes can be pulled remotely and in real time. There are certain events that will trigger an automatic download of the tapes and if anything went bad on that trip you can expect to hear about it.

On my first day of engineer OJT I was asked if I knew what BNSF stood for. "Better not start a family?" I quipped. My engineer was not amused. "It means Better Not Set Fifteen. When you set fifteen pounds or more you flag the trip and anyone who screwed up along the way - the Illinois based engineer who blew the crossing too late or the Kansas based engineer who hit the slow order hot - those guys all just got decertified because you didn't handle the train properly." That was when the tapes would have to be physically downloaded from the locomotive. Now this process happens automatically in real time. There's no getting away with anything anymore. 

Let me just point out that I'm not one who wants to "get away" with anything. I take this stuff very seriously and do my level best to keep the train under control even if it means running a couple miles per hour slower or stopping 500 feet from the signal instead of 400 feet. I will be paid a whole lot less if I'm decertified or unemployed. The vast majority of us out here are the same way. You don't succeed long on the railroad if you're trying to break rules, speed or run red blocks. 

Ah yes, engineer cusine. I

Ah yes, engineer cusine.

I always had a can or two of soup/chili or other product in my grip particularly in winter to warm up on the mainfold. Strangely the cooked soup sometimes had a hint of fuel oil. Occasionally a crew member would try to heat up a sandwich on the side wall heaters...and then forget he put his food there as it started to burn into the heater.

One thing all railroaders want to know is: "where/when do we eat"? Every railroader knows where to buy the best and good tasting food both healthy and junk to help stay awake on a run especially at night. Working freight trains as an engineer/conductor can be a very boring job and food especially with caffiene can help you stay awake. We used to say as a "boomer" the first trip is fascinating. the second interesting and the third and the rest boring.

Also while life as a railroader pays well it is is horrible on your life style with very little time for a personal life and always craving sleep. Yes, sleep becomes a valued commodity even on your days off (?) and really screws up your sleep patterns.

So the next time you see an engineer wave at you as he roars by on a train remember he gave up a lot in his life just to be in that chair with all its responsibilities.

Barry

My apologies to Kent for

My apologies to Kent for spending so much time on PTC and Trip Optimizer. I guess my point with that is that the job of operating a train over the road has changed dramatically over the past several years as these systems have been incorporated into our workflow. Actually operating the locomotives and train is almost secondary to dealing with these systems. 

To answer the question about best locomotive in the yard, I would say anything without an alerter. The alerter goes off and demands your attention at the most inopportune times. When I've had locomotives not equipped with an alerter (ex-Frisco GP38-2 and ex-Santa Fe GP39-2) the process of switching cars was much more enjoyable, calmer and allowed me to focus on the movement of the train and not the alerter.

We used to have several 3GS21B genset locomotives around here in the yard. They were universally hated. The cab was simply sheet metal so the horn sounded like it was mounted inside the cab. Since they could operate with one of the three gensets down (and since they failed so frequently they often were operated that way) they were considered gutless and fragile. 19 experiences out of 20 with the gensets were bad experiences. 

Having said that, when everything worked, for that brief moment when all three gensets were online and humming, they were good. What I just said is like admitting to your buddies that it's fun to ride a moped. Again, universally hated and for good reason. But when they worked... they had responsive brakes, loaded up faster than anything else and if you were spotting tank cars at a loading platform or reefers at a warehouse door where the spot has to be perfect the lag between the ground crew's voice to your hands to the movement of the train was tiny. I love switching with GP38s and SD40s, but on the rare occasions these things worked perfectly they beat those all day. The other thing is you couldn't handle a lot of tonnage with them. 25-30 loaded cars with a pair of gensets is about the limit where you could go 1.5 times that with geeps or even more with SD40s.

On the road I like GEs over EMDs. I just feel like they're more comfortable. Also, I don't know why, but EMD toilets on SD70ACe locomotives always stink. It can be unbearable at times. Best case it's ammonia overload. Worst case it's a porta-potty after Burning Man.

Not a popular opinion, but I prefer the desktop controls over the AAR control stand because you can stand up and stretch. The AAR control stand is great for switching but you're really boxed into a "cubicle" type environment and separated from the conductor. I think of Milton in Office Space when his desk keeps getting pushed toward him. It feels cramped and tiny in that seat and I'm not a big person. I feel bad for my big and tall brothers and sisters out there. 

Rock on Ryan

As far as I'm concerned all your insider railroad gouge is fascinating. But then I'm a foamer since a very young age.

Thanks to all participants for the observations and opinions. To me this information makes running my miniature railroad world more interesting. I can't be the only one.

From the modeling perspective I can see a railfan doing well with modern ops, T.O., PTC. Set up the train, let it run through your scenery and Bob's your uncle.

I can also see why, and am one of them, that others intentionally harken back to earlier times when the whole thing was more hands on and seat of the pants.

That was all good stuff Ryan.

That was all good stuff Ryan. It helps us "old heads" better understand what life is like in the cab today.

I always enjoyed running trains but appreciate retirement more these days.

Thanks and stay safe, keep up the good work, look forward to retirement.

Barry

Gensets

Thanks again to all for the insider observations.

Ryan, great additional class on gensets, which I don't think about much and one rarely sees referenced or shown in these MRH threads. Are you saying it takes three of them together and working properly to match a GP or SD? Or were you simply saying that your outfit had three of them?

Maybe I should start a separate thread on gensets. Or maybe not. Sometimes the things I imagine are of general interest turn out to be not so much.

SD40-2 (which I think is a really cool looking engine for some ill defined reason) and GP38-2 are getting a lot of favorable reviews by those in the know. Because there were so many of them, or there were so many of them because they were so good?

Barry, interesting point about SWs running "backwards" and being liked for the superior vision provided by all the windows that way. Makes me wonder again why the guys at Norfolk wanted all those high hoods.

Kent a 3GS21B is a model of

Kent a 3GS21B is a model of genset locomotive made by NRE. Atlas makes two versions of this model in HO scale. It has three generator/alternator sets, or gensets, that each produce 700 HP for a combined total of 2100 HP (3 GenSet 2100 HP B trucks).

My employer had loads of them but they were only operated in Los Angeles, Houston and Fort Worth, Texas in an effort to combat poor air quality. The Texas-based units were paid for at least partially with a grant from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality. As long as the grant was in effect we were going to use them. This mandate was in some way responsible for their downfall. 

We had to log a lot of horsepower-hours with these things which meant they were placed in service that didn't really fit their intended use. One example of that is a transfer job between yards that typically handled 8-10k ton trains. Our territory normally requires 1.0 HPT (horsepower per ton) for trains like that, so an 8,400 ton train should have four gensets (in this case "genset" is used to refer to the locomotive equipped with three generator/alternator sets) since each genset develops 2,100 HP.

4 * 2100 HP = 8400 HP

8400 HP per 8400 tons = 1.0 HPT

Well that 2100 HP isn't really available all the time. It's more like peak horsepower for short bursts. Stressing those locomotives for hours each day three shifts a day was too much and they began to fail. 

The modular design of the genset locomotives was a great idea on paper, but unfortunately servicing the gensets beyond minor repairs required pulling the entire generator set out of the locomotive. You need a crane to do that and our "roundhouse" was not equipped so they had to hire out a crane service each time one had to be pulled out or put back in, which was not only an all-day event but costly as well. So it made sense to wait until there was enough work to justify the crane for the daily rate which meant a handful of these locomotives would be down at a time. 

For those locomotives that didn't require pulling the genset but still had persistent problems you were basically down to 1400 HP. But these things were so light (about 130 tons) that they lost a lot of pulling power with just one generator set out of commission. Nobody in charge on the operating or mechanical sides gave us any less work to do so the good order locomotives that remained had to pick up the slack. That meant additional stress on the still functioning generator sets which increased their failure rate. It just spiraled out of control from there. 

To their credit, our mechanical forces developed special tools, jigs and fixtures to repair these locomotives and really seemed to get things under control toward the end. Unfortunately once the incentive program ended these units were not maintained and mechanical failures sidelined them one by one. Eventually the majority of them were sent on a couple trains out of town where they were disposed of or stored.

Genset Info

Good stuff Ryan. Thanks again for the education.