Current situation

Layout room as it stands today.  Please excuse the mess.  

Looking in from entry door:

Looking back from window:

Yard in a teardrop

Here's the general concept:

Thoughts???

thx

Jeff

Looks great!

Question is....  Lift out, swing or drop down bridge for the next door?

Enjoy!!!!  Lookin' fine!

Thanks Mr. Nick!  Will try to

Thanks Mr. Nick!  Will try to get it running for your next road trip. Probably no more movable sections on this layout.  The entry doors swing in which is another obstacle.  Reversing the swing would be a royal pain  hope y’all are doing well!

jeff

Great looking layout!

The layout looks great. I do wonder if you really need that loop though? It takes up a LOT of space, and you end up with a loop to point. If it were loop to loop and you got some continuous run capability out of it, that would be a different story, but couldn't you just build that yard plan against the wall, skip the loop, and then gain some additional length?

Thank AlexW!  I am a bit torn

Thank AlexW!  I am a bit torn on that very issue. One loop sort of just makes it a point-to-the-same-point layout. And the loop is really a massive footprint hog. but ion the other hand it would greatly lengthen the mainline run.  It’s all trade offs...

jeff

Not a continuous run

Since you're not going to get a continuous run out of it, I would put the yard back against the wall, and maybe stick an industry or two on small peninsulas out into the room to get more switching. Could you set up a removable continous run to make a small loop at the end of the room across from the pink section, with a peninsula that stays there all the time to connect to? That would give you continuous run to break in locomotives or just watch stuff run if you wanted to, even though it would be relatively short.

...Is it just empty attic

...Is it just empty attic space behind the shorter height wall?   Could you cut an entry and exit hole in the wall and run the reverse loop through there?  I had a similar space in my previous house.  it had a short half door for access to that space for storage.

AlexW: a continuous loop

AlexW: a continuous loop would be quite nice, if it was closer to the entry door than would be reminiscent of the classic Heart of Georgia layout which is one of my favorites. The pink section is a liftout on its own so a liftout connecting to a liftout would be challenging.   I had originally been working towards a continuous loop but vetoed it due to excessive rework on existing modules and logistics of room entry/egress and having an in swinging door.  But I may need to sketch it up in my track plan software and see how it looks.  Funny you should mention industry peninsulas as I recently saw and really liked this Belt Line peninsula arrangement with a wye except I would add a mainline through on the back. https://mrr.trains.com/-/media/Files/PDF/Marketing/5CompactTrackPlans.pdf

Mark300: That’s a neat idea - it’s an empty knee wall dead space under the roof behind that wall BUT I live in southeast Louisiana so unconditioned spaces are really not usable. I could imagine an insulated tunnel sort of arrangement but it would be impractical in this climate unfortunately.. the track work would suffer with humidity changes and air sealing would be tough

jeff

Continous run

 I always try to include a continous run, especially on smaller layouts.  A loop of some kind is handy for testing and breaking in equipment and lets you schedule more time running between towns and industries by adding loops to the run. Instead of assembling a train and watching it run 10 feet then stop you can let it run as many miles (laps) as you want it to run then stop next lap. Loops are also handy on small layout as they let one yard act as both ends of a run or one passing siding serve both ends of an out and back turn. A lift up entry section is not too hard to build and can be left up when not running or when running point to point if it's not part of the operating scheme. I have 2 lift up sections on my present layout, one was built about 3 years ago and has been trouble free, the other was just recently built as part of a layout expansion... ...DaveB

Your site is really helpful

Your site is really helpful that coz here in the UK I have to downsize from a cellar 16 foot x 12 foot  to one wall in a bedroom of a bungalow cheers and good luck with it all

Out and back

I haven’t had a continuous run on a layout for years, and haven’t missed it.  I think my personal approach in a space like yours would be no loops, return or otherwise.  Perhaps a small interchange yard, and industries.  YMMV.

One of the first layouts that really intrigued me was one I saw in an article in either MR or RMC in the 70’s, unfortunately I don’t remember the name of the layout or the author.  But It was basically a yard connected to a large return loop.  The yard served as both ends of the railroad.

If you got a bit more drastic and relocated your existing modules to be the front edge of the return loop on the other wall and built the new yard along the side where the existing modules are, you could get something similar.  Might be a good way to get a layout that could run a variety of trains and keep several operators busy for a session.

AH HA!

You guys nailed the operational flaw in this track plan... its a shelf layout with the yard IN the loop, as opposed to loop and yard at opposite ends of the layout.  There is a runaround near the stub end so locos can pull trains both ways out & back from the yard, so its not operationally terrible but certainly not optimal.  So while achievable, the draft isn't the right solution.  If I had the space, a dogbone or loop to loop (with a yard in one or even both loops) would be interesting but that won't fit in the room.  So I will re evaluate and sketch some new plans...

Ken - I had originally considered what you proposed with putting the yard on the "left" under the overhead cabinets and moving the existing modules to the "right" wall but didn't fully examine it.  Its worth a hard look at getting a real out & back to yard setup.  I think the modules would work OK there without much surgery and they are definitely movable.   

Will also sketch a movable section to yield a true around the room layout.  

Thanks all for the good discussion!

Jeff

Re-spins

I roughed out three track plan variants.  None are "final final" and would need some fine tuning like exact yard arrangements but they are pretty solid general representations.  All variants abandon the existing yard modules (5 tracks, ~8.5' long x 12" wide) and build new larger yards.      

1. West Yard / Big Loop: True out and back arrangement.  Moves 2 existing modules from west side to east side expansion area, builds new 12' long yard under cabinets, builds new turnaround loop.  Need to determine if northeast corner curve and old module track can be reworked to meet smoothly without tightening the radius beyond 24". 
    
2. West Yard / East Stub: Moves 3 existing modules from west side to east side expansion area, adds small transition module, and builds new large yard under cabinets.
    
3. East Yard / No Loop: No modules move, very large new yard built. 
     

All have pros and cons but that loop is even bigger than I thought, hogging alot of real estate for not alot of operational gain.  So I am leaning towards #2 or 3.  Have not sketched a lift out bridge for around the room yet.  

Jeff

Great looking space

That’s a great looking layout space. I also think a single loop is not the way I’d go. I’d add a small yard and more industries. 

Thank you Greg!  I concur...

Thank you Greg!  I concur... the yards as drawn are excessively large, and some more industries would be better.  

#3 is nice because its got the least amount of rework, but #2 would allow me to fix some issues with the way the backdrop and modules don't meet up that well on the existing modules.  

One thing I have learned in the last year of expansion is that lighting and backdrops need to be well thought out before you start laying track.  

Jeff

Operating plan?

You’ve got some basic shapes of how you could arrange the track worked out.

Now is probably a good time to figure out how you’d operate the railroad.  What happens in the yard?  How does frieght traffic get on the layout, and leave the layout?  It could be that imagined through trains drop/pickup local blocks in the yard, there could be an interchange track, there could be staging trains run in/out from, etc,  How many crews do you want to be able to keep busy during an op session?

If you figure out what you want the operation to be like, that will probably clarify what other things you might need and which arrangement works best.

Ops

Hi Ken

As currently configured, ops start in the yard where the freight train is built up, the loco pulls out to the modules with industries, switches them as necessary, loco runs around to pull train back to yard (or shoves back to yard with a caboose/shoving platform leading).   Its usually just me operating but occasionally 2 operators with one working the yard and one running the local freight.  

None of the current three draft plans really change this: #3 is just a bigger yard than current, #2 is a mirror image version of the current with a bigger yard, and #1 would be just a little different operationally in that the power would not have to do a run around (or shove back with a caboose/shoving platform) as it could make the loop and return to the yard with the power pulling.  

Ops sessions of 30-45 min work for both me and the kids.  Depending on the size and complexity of the train and moves required at the industries with the switchback and mix of trailing and facing point switches, that is generally 2-3 round trips from the yard and some time in the yard switching within that time frame.   Interchange traffic to The Rest of The World happens magically in the yard.  Its a very simple scheme, no cards or waybills at this time just basic like-cars for like-cars based on the spots and dealers choice on the team tracks/transloads.  

Jeff

Out of the blue option?

I'm no expert, don't have a layout of my own to speak of beside the Free-mo modules I've got in work, so 'grain of salt' is required...

Option 1, where the loop is.  You mentioned out and back, need to turn the power for the return trip.  May I suggest a fold-down (or up) wye segment, just big enough to handle the engines?  When the layout isn't in use, drop the leaf the wye leg is on, regain floor space for other uses of the room.

Regards,

Tim B.

No loop, two industry areas?

Jeff,

Given what you want to do with operation, I think the loop is probably extraneous.  And as you say it eats space.  A runaround would be a much smaller and more prototypical way to get the engine to the other end for the return trip.  Or just shove back as you say.

It looks to me like the yard is bigger than it needs to be for the rest of the layout, but perhaps I havent fully understood how it’s going to work.

I think I’d shrink the yard a little and add a second industry area near it, perhaps off the opposite end of the yard from the first set of industries.

- Ken

New spin

Relooking at the three variants today gave me a hybrid idea that I really like. 

Take the West Yard Big Loop plan, delete the loop, add new 6’ section between corner and old module 1. Will need a runaround tail extension on module 2 or put 2 next to northeast corner and do another runaround at southeast. This provides a lot of goodness as the chemical module stays in place and I don’t have to rebuild the liftout section’s supporting French cleat, I can deal with the existing backdrop issues, and have an appropriately sized yard in that approx. 12’ long space. The chemical module has the only NCE panel on the layout so the yard could be worked from the wired Powercab and the industries worked from the one wireless cab that I have. Thinking about adding some industry flats adjacent to the yard too. Overall this seems like the least amount of rework relative to the results.  

Crudely marked up plan below. The yard approach and details need some attention  

 

Tim B - thanks for that idea! I’m moving away from the turnaround concept but that’s also a creative idea I will think about

Jeff

"moving away from the turnaround concept "

A couple of thoughts.  First it looks like you have way more yard than required for that amount of industry? So possibly the yard could be narrowed a bit and a 180 degree curve added to the bottom right to turn the tracks back up the middle for more industrial real estate. This center peninsula could be fairly narrow with mostly narrow industrial buildings against a backdrop. The turn back curve would also make it easy to install a continous run lift out section back to the left side yard....DaveB  

Yard size

Some of those yards are WAY too big for the size of the layout. I'd either make a shorter yard if you want to do a lot of classification, or you could build a long, thin yard with a couple of tracks and industries either in front of or behind it, which is actually fairly common on the prototype.

Definitely lose the turnback loop. Loops make sense on an operational layout that's large and has loops at either end to facilitate staging and turning through trains, but really doesn't make sense on a small switching layout. It also gets sort of confusing operationally when you train suddenly ends up backwards. I like DaveB's suggestion of trying to go up the middle and possibly adding a continuous run section, which could go on either side of the layout, depending on where you want to form a loop.

Yard design

Also, consider how the yard is going to operate. In that last design, your A/D track appears to be at the front of the yard, at the end of the yard ladder, which would interfere with yard switching operations. Having a yard lead is going to be important for a road crew to be leaving the yard at the same time as the yard crew is classifying cars. You also want a yard lead that's as long as the longest classification track, so that you can dig something out from the back of a cut of cars.