MannsCreekRR

I have been working on a project for a while now and I now that I have something to show I would post where I am at with it, and where I a going (or need to go).

I started to design an On3 shay that I had planned to scratch build from brass.  The original intent was to have some parts printed by Shapeways in brass, while other parts I would use existing castings from PSC along with photo etched parts for the boiler, cab, and tender.  My main goal was to be able to use a can motor to power the shay, rather than the coreless motors typically used. 

To save from wasting expensive Shapeways prints I purchased an Epax X1 printer to print test parts at home.  The printer has been doing such a good job that I have recently decided to abandon full brass fabrication and do a hybrid model, using brass for structural parts and resin for the not structural parts.  All axles or shafts are metal and brass tubing is used as bearings.  Surprisingly the assembled trucks are very strong and run very free.

Regearing parts are hard to come by these days (at least I can't find any) so I am using what I have on hand, which gives me limited choices.   I also have no machine tools so everything is being done either by 3D printing or by fabricating with stock materials.  The gear box i designed runs fine, and the gear ratio is perfect, however I am using four brass spur gears to reach the crank shaft and they are noisy.  At the moment I am looking for a solution, and I am open to ideas if anyone has any to share.

As far as the model goes, it is a 42 ton shay purchased by Babcock Coal and Coke company, which was operated on the Manns Creek Railway.  I purchased copies of the original Lima drawings from the California State Railroad Museum and I am using them to design the parts.  The original Shay was delivered with a straight stack, but replaced with a Radley Hunter stack.  The story goes that when they ordered the stack a number got messed up and instead of getting the correct size stack they ended up with a larger stack for a bigger standard gauge shay, however they made it work.  I also am using photos and measurements I took from a 37 ton shay at the Green Bay WI railroad museum.  The 37 ton and 42 ton shays were almost identical, the only difference really was the cylinder stroke.

here is a link to a test run, you can hear the brass spur gear noise.  the wobble was from dragging the test leads across the scenery.

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Jeff Kraker

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Reply 0
railandsail

brass gears?

I'm not sure but weren't the BRASS gears the problem with a number of production shays?

 

 

Reply 0
herronp

Wow, that is truly amazing work there....

Curious how much time you spent from design, programming the jobs and printing and finishing the work?

Peter

Reply 0
GNNPNUT

You might try reaching out to Right-o'-Way on gears

Manns:

If you have not done so already, you can check with Jay Criswell on the gears.  They have a web site that I've not been able to get on, but it looks like his Facebook page is active:

https://www.facebook.com/Right-O-Way-235082016964918/

If Jay cannot help you, he could at least point you in the right direction. 

Also, that is some fine design and printing work that you are doing.  What software are you using for design?

Regards,

Jerry

 

Reply 0
MannsCreekRR

Thanks for the link

I will try contacting Right-o-way and see if there is anything they can offer

Jeff Kraker

Read My Blog

Reply 0
MannsCreekRR

printing design and process time

as I like to say, "3D printing is just pressing a button...too bad it takes a hundred hours to make the button".  Enough with the bad jokes, but really the truth is...it all depends.  To design in 3D is a skill set that has to be learned, practiced, and then used enough that you get proficient at it.  Fortunately I do this for a living and have been 3D modeling for 30 years, so I am really good at it.  The time consuming part for me is getting good data to model from.  For this project I purchased as many of the original Lima drawings as I could, which makes it easier (not easy though).  Once the design is done then you have to export the file as an STL, then import it into what is called a Slicer software.  The part then get orientated for best printing and what are called “supports” attached where they may be either an “island” or a weak area.  After all that you then can just push the button.  However after you “push the button” and get your print you have to check it to see what printed good an what did not.

Print times depend on how tall the print is, but a good example is that one truck takes 2hr-30min to print.  I don’t care how fast it prints, I care how good it prints.  Normally I will set up the part for printing and load it into the printer either at night before bed, or in the morning before going to work.  I actually slow my printer “lift speed” way down to reduce the printing stress on the part, it reduces failed prints or distorted prints.

If the print does not look good you have to decide if it was just a weird print fail, sometimes happens, or if the part needs to be orientated different, or if you need to adjust your details to show better.  Part orientation errors get better with experience because I can pretty much guess what will work or the best way to orientate the part.  Same with print details, once you learn your printer and know what things will work and what won’t I do not have as many reprints as I did.  An example would be rivet and bolt head sizes, or board gaps.

Some details actually need to be oversized a little because they will get a little smaller in the print process, or bigger depending on how you look at it.  An example of this is a seam or a board gap.  To get the line not to fill in you have to make it bigger than you want the finished part.  For the seam on the sand dome cap I actually made the gap 0.008”, which looks big on the digital file but due to pixel size of the printer it looks like a fine line.

I have a few hundred hours in this Shay so far of just 3D model and testing, not to mention field trips, phone calls and internet search time.  I have printed this shay 3 times so far to test the drive, 6 times to test and modify the trucks.  Those “body” parts are all the early test parts and I have made detail adjustments or corrections already to the 3D model.  The frame you see is actually a test frame printed on an FDM printer, the actual frame will be a brass skeleton with resin printed overlays.

It sounds daunting, but most of it is very exciting.  The drive line is the most frustrating part because the availability of parts is just not what it once was.

Jeff Kraker

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Reply 0
pierre52

Combo Possibilities

That is some fine looking modelling there and a great example of combining resin printing for detail and metal parts for strength.  Very similar in a way to making a home built 3D printer. 

Given your 3D design skills it would be interesting to see how it might fit with either a. Traditional clock making skills, or b. 5 axis CNC machining.

For a, I would recommend having a look at this video for some inspiration:

For b, Either CNC EDM or just straight 5 axis CNC would offer some interesting possibilities.  Reaching out to John Saunders at Saunders Machine Works might make a good collab project.

Peter

The Redwood Sub

Reply 0
barr_ceo

You could do what Shapeways

You could do what Shapeways does....  they don't print in brass, they print in jewelry wax, and use the master to create a plaster mold for lost-wax casting, If the melting point of the resin is low enough, you could to the same, and not lose the weight of brass.

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Reply 0
oldcup

Best wishes

A great story all the best for completion..

Reply 0
Brent Ciccone Brentglen

Impressive!

Nice work, and it seemed to run pretty good to me. Shays were noisy beasts, so a little gear noise is appropriate.

Brent Ciccone

Calgary

Reply 0
MikeHughes

Impressive ...

Do you have access to kozo Hiraoko’s book on building the shay?  It might give you some ideas on printing the gears as he builds them up from plain brass.

Reply 0
kjd

bushings

The shay is an impressive build.  I noticed several shafts held by the printed material.  I saw you are planning on building a brass frame but would also recommend bushing the shafts so they don't wear away the printed material. 

Paul

 

Reply 0
MannsCreekRR

bushings in place on current models

thanks all, those gear box photos are of a early design when I was going to have the parts printed (cast) in brass from shapeways.  after i decided to use the resin parts all axle holes were enlarged to use brass bushings.

Jeff Kraker

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Reply 0
Benny

...

Quote:

I have a few hundred hours in this Shay so far of just 3D model and testing, not to mention field trips, phone calls and internet search time.  I have printed this shay 3 times so far to test the drive, 6 times to test and modify the trucks.  Those “body” parts are all the early test parts and I have made detail adjustments or corrections already to the 3D model.  The frame you see is actually a test frame printed on an FDM printer, the actual frame will be a brass skeleton with resin printed overlays.

And people ask..."so when are you going to upload your model to a place where we can download it?"...as if you do not have hundreds of hours in modeling and untold investment in research materials and untold days of frustration working through engineering issues and somehow it's no big deal if you just give the world a copy of the file...so you can then watch your model pop up on Ebay from a foreign supplier...

That is a gorgeous model and I hope you enjoy the success that is due to you with it!!

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 1
Douglas Meyer

I have often considered if I

I have often considered if I have to build a new layout that I may go to On3 and model the Mann’s Creak.  
So I am following this with great interest.

I also believe that 3D Printers are the future of the hobby and that you are leading the way into that future.  A future where I think we will see people and groups creating custom 3D models of very specific prototype locomotives.

I expect that eventually we will see libraries of 3D sub assemblies and details that people will be able to download to use in modifying or building new 3D models of engines and we probably will see things like historical societies that have 3D models of things from that specific railroad.

It is interesting to see this change coming.  I think it will be the biggest change we have seen in this hobby in decades.  
 

-Doug M

Reply 0
Dave Squire

Spur Gears Replacement

Impressive model.  I've always thought Mann's Creek would make a fun layout, and your videos confirm it.

Many years ago, Sunset Models made an On3 model of West Side Lumber #12, a 3-truck Shay.  The gearbox was in the firebox and was connected to the crankshaft with a small Gilmer belt.  The gear/cog was between the #2 and #3 crank throws.  The drive is smooth and quiet, but eventually the belt fails.  Changing the belt is a pain.  You have to drop the crankshaft, which requires partially disassembling the valve gear.

Lee Snover of Leetown Model Service made a replacement using Serv-o-link half-link Delrin chain.  The drive is also smooth and quiet. Its advantage is that if the chain fails, replacement doesn't require removing the crank.  Grandt Line used to sell the chain and sprockets. (I haven't checked San Juan.)  The chain is about .1" pitch. The sprocket on the crank has 6 teeth, which isn't a cataloged size.  I think Lee's sprocket was custom made and reproduced as a lost-wax brass casting.  Since he's passed away, we can't ask him the details.  Given your skills, you could design and print your own sprockets.  I don't know how well a printed sprocket would wear; the advantage of brass is that it will easily outlast the Delrin chain.

Reply 0
Brent Ciccone Brentglen

You Could Sell Parts

You could sell some of those parts, especially the truck gears and U joints. They would probably work on the On30 Bachman shays, or scale them down for the HO shay that has gear and truck disintegration issues!

Brent Ciccone

Calgary

Reply 0
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