Remote drone operators on the railroad

...at least they're not launching Hellfire missiles from their consoles. That would be hard on the scenery 

All joking aside this is really neat to see, pandemic or not. First remote dispatching, now hoggers.

Actually adds to the realism

Forcing people to be apart from the action is a good way to enhance the realism of modern-day switching operations; the engineer is always separated from the brakeman, and cannot usually see or interact with anything on the ground. It also helps to enhance the concepts that you'll hear on a radio. If you wanted even more realism, you could add a camera to the front and back of the locomotive, so that the only thing the engineer can see is directly ahead of him or behind him.

Does lag look like it is an issue? I'm surprised that the communications is working so well. Going from a ProtoThrottle to a computer, through the internet, to another computer, and to the DCC system on the layout is quite a long way.

More details and answers

Thanks D.M.!  We have remote Hogger and remote Conductor as well in this clip. The remote Conductor has never been to the layout in person (he's in the UK, I'm in Canada). He has the same views as the remote Hogger (who has operated here in person last year) as well as the ShipIt! switch list and a track schematic showing the track, spots and car lengths between switches like this:

The overhead camera is above Railside Road.

Juxen, yes, the separation adds realism for sure. Accurate, clear and timely communication is essential. Just like the real thing... 

We do have to add some non-prototypical messages to help things move along, but not too bad.  The Engineer actually gets a way better view of the "last car to the joint" than he would in real life as you say.

We have looked at in-cab Wi-Fi cameras as well. But even though this is O scale, there's not much room even for the latest miniature 1080p spy cams. Plus there's already a lot of Wi-Fi flying about in my basement during a session!

We have been pleasantly surprised at the lack of lag for throttles and cameras. It does seem to vary by location and time of day. Worst case for my Engineer in Australia seems to be about 2 seconds, generally less. For the UK, about 1-1.5 seconds, and for Southern Ontario operators under 1 second most of the time.

I think the Engineer having the un-prototypical "last car to the joint" Conductor's-eye view is a compromise worth making for safety in this way of operating. We haven't broken any knuckles so far, which is about 80 hours of ops over the last four months.   

Pete  

Glad to hear on the lag

When I was a conductor at a shortline, I'd have loved to get only two seconds of lag.

One trick that the engineers would do (and is hard to do on a model) is that they would keep the loco in notch one or two while heading into a coupling, and would modulate their speed using the independent brake. With practice, it allows for a very smooth coupling. On the other hand, we had an engineer that would hit at 5+ mph while holding the throttle open in notch 4. We really didn't like working with that one. You shouldn't be knocked out of your seat by a coupling you made 10 cars back.

PT to the rescue

Dear Juxen,

...that's where you need to try a ProtoThrottle...

Seriously, with an appropriately-config'd loco and a PT T.U.I.,
doing a "walk-up in Notch 1, drift the last 20 (scale) feet into the coupling in Idle,
and brake-to-stop just-on-knuckle-contact" is entirely possible, 
and a thing to behold...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Neat

Looks like it works surprisingly well!

PT makes remote ops more realistic, same as local imho

Yes, PT makes remote ops more fun and real with remote ops same as it does locally. The delay doesn't seem to matter as much when you have a lot of momentum and a "playable" brake. 

As Juxen said, if you have LS5DCC (can't do this with LS4 or Select) you can come to an accurate stop or joint using the Independent Brake with the throttle still open a bit. You can see Engineer DL do that in the clip.

You can also shove from a stop against the brake to a very accurate spot this way, as demonstrated here:

Another thing that's really noticeable to me as I watch my trains working without my input, is how the locos sound more like the real thing when switching with PT and LS5DCC. "Gun it then coast" like I hear when railfanning rather than moving along steadily in Notch 3.

With CV4 at 255 and CV 24 at 127, my locos will coast from their top speed of 10 scale MPH for about 4-5 minutes until they stop. 

So as Engineer, if you hear "Back 10 to a joint, 44", you can take out the slack in Notch 1, then Notch up to 3 or 4, then at the "5 more" call, go to idle and coast in to the joint using the variable brake for the last 2-3 car lengths to make a nice joint. 

My idea of fun anyway! 

Pete

"Gun it, then coast"

Dear MRHers,

Whether using a PT or not, I find that using the "Gun-it to get moving, then throttle-off and coast" technique when running even a medium-momentum loco,
is both aurally pleasing, and a good way to keep "stop where you want to" control...
(the PT "tactile user interface", esp with the seperate Throttle and Brake levers,
just makes it a bit more intuitive... ).

Indeed, when I demo'd the PT at the last Aust NG Convention
(using an On30 NG "Sekiu #8" boxcab with ST Econami decoder),

it was apparent on the 6' length of flextrack "demo track"
which attendees picked up on the "Gun it to start moving, Coast the distance, and brake--to-a-Stop" method,
(and thus did not find themselves overshooting the end-of track),

and those who just couldn't get-it...
("...the test track is waaaay toooo short for the momentum settings, this is impossible...")

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

On the subject of PT

A couple of months ago, I got a Pi-Sprog system that I'll be using for my future DCC layout (house is nearing completion right now), and I've been having good success with it. I am also using TCS WowSound decoders in all of my locomotives. Is there any difficulty in getting the PT to play nicely with the JMRI-based Sprog system and TCS Wow decoders? I've been looking at the price for the PT and its required communicator and have come to the conclusion that this is not a "buy it and see if it works" type of system. I should mention that I'll be doing dual-eras with my layout, so there'll be locos from the transition era (steam, diesel, all TCS inside) and the mid-1990's (diesels with TCS, MU'ing). I figure the steam locos will still require a phone, and I'd like to keep all function buttons (like F6 for brake) standard with the stock TCS decoder.

@Juxen

The short answer is the PT will talk to JMRI using the WiThrottle protocol. It doesn't really know what kind of system you have.  And, it works fine with TCS decoders.

You may want to join the ProtoThrottle group at groups.io.

Several member have contributed configurations for many brands of decoders. I'm sure it will save you some time.

GS 

Thoughts...

Dear Juxen,

First up, I'll say that the absolute best way to know if the PT "is for you" is to get hands-on with one...
(If only we could get you to a train-show where ISE was demo-ing the unit hands-on... :-(   ).

That said...

No, the PT Throttle talks to it's Receiver,
and in this case, the "ESU Bridge" Reciever will present to your JMRI/WiThrottle/WiFi system as "just another WiFi-connected WiThrottle device" (IE no different to connecting your smart-phone to the JMRI rig as a throttle)

As with any "PT configured loco", there will need to be some specific tweaking to the decoder,
particularly in regards:
- seperating the Head and Tail lights onto seperate F-keys/functions
- Momentum settings (Accel and Decel = MORE)
- Brake settings (you can likely leave the brake on the F-key you wish, but you will need to know which F-key that is, the system won't "know this for you" at point of initial configuration)

but yes, a number of modellers report success running WOW decoders with PT throttles
(Suggest joining  https://groups.io/g/ProtoThrottle for the best UserGroup support info.
NO, you do Not need to have purchased a PT already in order to join.... )

No problem, the PT throttle itself can hold 20 individual "loco setups", to match specific units/roles/tasks.

The PT is ostensibly a "diesel control stand", so it will "make sense" for the diesels. 
There's no technical/compatibility reason why you can't use a PT to drive a steam-loco-model,
but it will be your personal "gut feel" if it makes-sense or no...
(a quick throw of "Steam Protothrottle" in the search box at top right should get you a couple of threads where some modellers are in various stages of developing Steam specific units, inspired by the ISE PT...)

As long as _all_ the locos in each consist are running common decoders,
(IE you are _not_ trying to mix-n-match decoders within the consist),
there should be no reason why a PT can't run your 90s era consists...

...although, that said, there have been some reports of modellers struggling to get a handle on:

- the differences between "basic" and "advanced consisting"
(and this can be different depending on what the Host DCC system is,
and how it does "consisting" as a concept)

- what that means in terms of lighting and sound behaviour for the "body units"
(the "Head" and "Tail" units may light-and-sound in response to the PT commands as-expected, 
but what do the intermediate "body" units do?)

both of which are more-to-do with the Decoder setup on each loco
(Hint: check the "Consist enabled functions" CVs for the decoders in question)

and the specific Host DCC system in-use
(EG NCE "Advanced consist" seems to handle the difference between the "Head/Tail" and "body" units better than some systems, but does not take well to the User manually Futzing with CV19 outside of the system itself

than the PT "input commands",
but the use of a PT tends to bring such "failure to properly/appropriately configure the fundamental settings" issues to the fore,
as the modeller is suddenly looking-more-closely and expecting-more from the PT + Host DCC system + specific-decoder-consist combination than before...

Apart from the aforementioned splitting of the Head and Tail lights onto their own "F-keys"
(IE they can-and-should be capable of _independent_ control, 
not a single "F0" function to control the On/Off of _both_ lights) 

it should be possible to keep most other function-key assignments "at factory mapping",
as the PT itself can indeed address a high-number of "F-keys" (up to F20 IIRC?)...

...whether the Host DCC system is capable of handling such "high F-key" command Inputs --> Outputs,
that's a _seperate_ issue, and solely down to the Host DCC System. (Not a PT problem).

The key here is that it's up to the Human to establish "which function is on what F-number",
(whether that's the "factory defaults", or "custom remapping to suit some user-specific rhyme/reason"),
the PT will happily be configured to "send the appropriate F-number command" as long as the human can tell it which F-number is appropriate for the given nominated function...

NB that the PT has a specific mode to work with the WOW's unique "stepped-brake" feature...

I hope this helps...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

GS and Prof

Thanks for the assurances and tips. I'm looking forward to getting one of these, once my wallet has enough to take the hit.

Consisting - One More Thing

One more thing - the PT is an Engineer's Throttle.  You drive a train with it.

You don't build and break consists with the PT.  You do that with your the same system throttle you use now.

Once the consist is built, you drive it with the PT.

gs

Analogous to...

Dear Juxen, GS,

Which, IIRC, is quite analogous to a prototype situation:
- the Hostler services, checks-over, and assembles the "consist" of locos
(IE performed by a "full button" throttle, or the JMRI onscreen system, at the "engine terminal")

- then the Road Crew (Engineer and Conductor) get onboard,
take-over from the Hostler, and git-going...
(IE the PT picks-up the pre-assembled consist, and goes...)

See, the PT emphasises and encourages modelling of "prototypical operating roles" in the session,
even beyond the "road crew" actually using the PT itself...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PT consists

Juxen, most of my roster runs in 2 unit consists.  You can operate 2-digit advanced consists with all DCC systems, and of course NCE's proprietary setup works great also.

I stole an idea from Joe Atkinson to "swap cabs" in 2-digit address advanced consists with PT. This is with LS decoders, but I would think it's doable with TCS also. See video clip sequence of my first attempts last year:

Part 1 in the lead unit's cab:

Part 2 moving to the trailing unit's cab by pressing the PT's Aux button:

Part 3 driving the trailing unit:

I think you will find PT takes your operating enjoyment to a whole new level as the Prof says!

I also think it won't be too awful at running steam locos with a bit of imagination. 

Pete 

Thanks all

Thank you for that demonstration and tips, that helps out a lot with some of my understanding of the PT system.

Operate with Pete

I've been operating on the GHR since October.  Great experience. If you have a PT I suggest you sign up to operate.  First of all, it's just cool to push a knob, lever and see an engine move  400 miles and one country away and hear the sounds come back across the zoom.

I'm a fan a two many crews on model railroads.  But I find most engineers do not isolate themselves enough from the train.  They just want to do it.  As a remote engineer I feel the remoteness that I presume actual crews feel.  I have to trust Pete to call out the directions, car lengths, etc...What's nice about that is I can focus on running the train, because running the PT takes thought.  One of the hardest things to do is making a stretch.

Another aspects is using the language.  Pete seems to good knowledge of the language and know the differences between typical terms used in the US vs. Canada.

"Bring it back 4 cars to a couple"

"2 cars"

"1 car"

"half a car"

.... Take Pete up on his offer, use a phone or a PT!

Thanks for the kind comments Dave!

It's been great fun operating with you. 

Remote Engineers always welcome. The GHR has been working with remote crews for about 9 months now and we seem to have most of the bugs ironed out.

We have a few more cameras now for full end-to-end overhead views plus the "last-car-to-the-joint" view from the Zoom call on my phone.

All you need to be remote Engineer is a smart phone with Engine Driver or WiThrottle and a PC, Mac, iPad or Android tablet to run the camera app and Zoom call.  ProtoThrottle with the ESU/JMRI/LNWI Bridge also works great, and so does the TCS UWT.

Here's a quick clip of the layout with a remote Engineer and Conductor classifying a cut of cars to give an idea of how it works (cued up):

If you prefer Conducting over Engineering, that works too. Here's a quick clip of a remote Conductor and me as the local engineer lifting cars at Marlow (cued up):

If you're interested to give it a try, contact me at   gp9u at rogers dot com    and we'll set it up.

Pete