rickwade

Yesterday when Michael Rose and his bride were at our home to enjoy a smoked Boston butt roast he wanted to peak in on my layout.  He noticed the dust as did I when I was taking roof top photos for another thread. Michael suggested asking you guys how you deal with dust. My layout room is inside of the house and I have a HEPA fan / filter running all of the time; however, I still get dust.

Of course I've heard of using a small vacuum to remove dust and I've even heard (but never have done) of misting the layout with water to try and make the dust less noticeable. I can't cover my layout with anything (sheet, plastic, etc..) as it is too fragile.  Any ideas?  Thanks!

Oh, and the meal was delicious and Michael even played some music for us!

Rick

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The Richlawn Railroad Website - Featuring the L&N in HO  / MRH Blog  / MRM #123

Mt. 22: 37- 40

Reply 0
Bill Brillinger

Following

As I begin cleaning up my layout in hopes of running a train again, I am struggling with this question too.

The layout has sat dormant for about 2 years now

At least I only have to deal with the rolling stock and track, as I have no scenery yet, but with an eye to the future, I want to know how people deal with dust too.

Bill Brillinger

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, Admin for the RailPro User Group, and owner of Precision Design Co.

Reply 0
GNNPNUT

Here is an idea for dealing with train dust

Christopher is an O scaler, and came up with what I thought was a great device to address dust on the trains. 

Never got around to trying this with HO.................................................

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/vacuumblower-to-dust-off-trains

Video:

Regards,

Jerry

 

Reply 0
musgrovejb

No Such Thing as Dust Proof

This is an age old question.  Really, except for keeping the layout covered, which is impractical for most, a layout will get dust.

Cleaning and vacuuming the layout room, at least weekly, helps keep the dust levels down.  When doing this you want to remove the dust not “stir up” the dust.  (Use a damp cloth or product that traps dust and dirt)
 

For layout cleaning I will remove loose objects and go over the layout, “AT A DISTANCE”, with a shop vac.  For structures, locomotives, rolling stock, etc, I use a mini-vac.  
 

Not sure about misting with water.  To me it would seem like that would attract more dust.  
 

‘’Joe

Modeling Missouri Pacific Railroad's Central Division, Fort Smith, Arkansas

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLENIMVXBDQCrKbhMvsed6kBC8p40GwtxQ

 

Reply 0
Great Divide

Big problem as layouts age

This might be the most troublesome problem for any model railroad.   Glueing things down, better than you once thought you had to, will become apparent  as you confront this problem.  The O scale vacuum box in the youtube video is a clever remedy and should work well if used regularly and dust is not allowed to settle and harden like a thin layer of paint as it can over time.   I bet one could be made to work with HO if you can find the happy medium between lifting the cars off the tracks and sucking them into the vacuum and being effective at all... 

   For older models there is no easy remedy to rid yourself of the dust...  I suppose you could paint a volcano in the far distance and tell visitors the ash from Mt Dusty has caused great concern to the inhabitants of your little world...  But I think the only weapons we have are the various small vacuums or compressed air cans for stubborn places and a long tedious process to brush and remove as much as we can. 

Dust is inevitable so as like most things in life you go to the source to try and combat the problem and this will help cut down on the painstaking efforts we all undertake to address the symptoms.  I have a heating system that runs a fan mounted behind a hot water filled, hanging, radiator in my layout room.   This system, in the winters, will cause dust to be thrown on my work like I really do live near Mt Dusty.    But at least I know where most dust will be drawn to before being blow around the room so I have built myself a lightweight box that mounts over the fan unit and it has a layer of furnace filter and I also bought a hepa filter to sit in front of that.  The hepa filter seems to be overkill...  those are supposedly 1 Micron...  if you have 5 micon screening you should be fine.

 The dust I have cleaned from the filter... (air compressor and then a water hose)  is pretty impressive...   So I know I am at the very least doing battle and staying ahead of an estimated 85%-90% of any accumulations during the winter months.   In the summer you can run simple room air filters with the ion thingy.  

So no matter what you do if you can rig up something in your room to circulate the air through a filtering system there is no better tool available that will remove more dust with less time & effort for us than keeping the room clean.  I have a fair size room and it is on a second floor so I run an air conditioner in the summers as needed.   I need to get a better filter for it... but even just the one thats in there helps.  And I think I could get away with one of the larger typical room air filters set up to move air on the other side of the room back to the air con.... and get as much as possible.    I need the heater fan in the winter so the cost is Nil for those 6 months... And the Air Con is the same in the summer...  So a simple hepa filter upgrade can help every modeler I am quite sure. 

Any filtering will help....  Howard Zane and George Sellios even cover their layouts with a curtain built into the overhead valance if I remember right.   If you can do it this is a good way to go as well.

 

Randy       

Reply 0
Rick Sutton

Just a note about misting

Disclaimer......I live in a low humidity area. Florida might be an issue with the method described below.

It works. It does take restraint and knowledge of what kind of material you are misting. 

Like all of us I have problems with dust and take the usual precautions. Shark vacuum main canister under the layout that comes up to work desk with flexible tubes and a local on/off switch. Helps keep messes immediately cleaned up. Another Shark stored in a cardboard "closet" that's only job is the layout room floor. The Shark is critical as it extracts an amazing amount of dirt and doesn't blow it back into the air. Found both on special approx. $100 - $120 each. Makes a huge difference. Worth every penny.

I also have an air purifier running 24/7. Honestly, not sure that it extracts much dust but it certainly detects fumes.

After carefully holding a flexible vacuum tube (with internal screen trap) near the roofs of buildings and other flat surfaces like roads, track etc. carefully sweep the dust off of those surfaces into the vacuum tube with a soft flat paintbrush around 1" wide. This will get you half way there.

Now for misting. The sprayer has to be a fine "mister".  Spray from roof down and let the dirty water settle into the scenic base. Will not make the item sticky or more prone to attracting dust. I do it as needed about every 18 months. My buildings are constructed of many materials including paper. Needless to say, if I can get away with it anything built with plastic is duck soup. And yes I have had some small issues over the years.....usually a little bit of glue will solve.

 I also do the misting to trees, bushes and rock castings. Makes a big difference

Always use distilled water. It is also very useful for weathering and mixing/thinning acrylics. Don't be a cheapo. A gallon of distilled water at 99 cents lasts me a year or more.

 What do we add to our glue/water mixes when applying scenery or ballast? A wetting agent. Many use drops of detergent or Flo agent for dishwashers. Me, always isopropyl alcohol. Always.

Add about an ounce of isopropyl to the distilled water in the sprayer.

Oh yeah, even after your wife is through with the Tresemme and you have cleaned out the sprayer you might get a tiny bit of fragrance.....that's just a little free bonus and the train room will be a little better smelling! Don't worry, it's temporary.

sting(1).jpg  

Reply 1
Bill Brillinger

Goopy cleaning thing

I think a saw an ad somewhere for some sticky slime that was good for removing dust but did not leave a residue behind on models. Does anybody have any info on that?

Bill Brillinger

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, Admin for the RailPro User Group, and owner of Precision Design Co.

Reply 0
Ken Rice

I recall an article...

I recall reading a pretty good article on how to clean up aging/dusty scenery.  Unfortunately I can’t remember where I read it, or what the title was, or who wrote it (Dave Frary perhaps?), and my google-foo is lacking this morning.  Might even have been a chapter in a book.  While looking around I noticed that my model railroad scenery books seem to be missing, must be in one of the few remaining boxes I still haven’t unpacked from the move.

Anyway, as I recall it involved a bit of vacuuming, and bit of blowing with compressed air, using some soft brushes, and maybe a little fresh ground cover if some of the colors had faded.

Reply 0
Ken Rice

Misting?

Rick, what does the misting do?  You just mist and let it settle and do nothing else?  I assume you’d not giving it a heavy enough rainfall to carry away the dust in the runoff, so does it just dissolve the bigger bits of dust and spread them around in a more uniform thin layer or something?

Your layout looks great, you obviously know what you’re talking about, I’m not questioning the effectiveness of your process.  I’m just puzzled about how it works.

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Trees

The biggest issue I am concerned about is how to clean the trees when they eventually get dusty.  Since they are foam on natural material armatures, bumping them too much will break the branches and too much suction could rip the foliage off the branches.

Haven't figured out what to do yet, but that is a concern.

Every 3 months or so, I dust off the tops of cars, engines, and buildings with a soft brush (make up brushes are good) and vacuum with a little portable vacuum along the tracks.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
Rick Sutton

Ken

I mist it until I get run off. Think car wash. The mist is useful because it is gentle enough to not force the dirt into crooks and crannies or even worse, inside the building or rolling stock. It also helps with smooth controlled application. Normal sprayers are like scale fire hoses where a true mister is more like a scale rainfall. The wetting solution really helps everything to slide off the surface quickly so you don't get pooling of dirty water on the model. Trust me......I was desperate when I first tried this on models with paper (sealed) surfaces and it is not perfect ,but after putting months into carefully constructing a building and then see it slowly disappear before my eyes I had to do it. 

Reply 0
Rick Sutton

Oh boy...I don't want to cause anybody damage but..........

Misting.

 I got so discouraged a couple of years ago because when I'd enter the layout room it just looked like everything had faded including the trees. My trees are wire armatures, polyester fiber with paper leaves attached with hairspray. Pretty fragile.

 They survived and looked much, much better. 

Reply 0
Ken Rice

Runoff

Ah, OK, I get it.  I wasn’t expecting that you’d mist it enough to get runoff, I guess I’m just chicken hearted when it comes to water on structures.  But as you say if it works for your paper structures it should work on anything.

Reply 0
Bill Brillinger

Misting

We use 70% Isopropyl Alcohol to clean fake plants by misting them. It works pretty well.

Bill Brillinger

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, Admin for the RailPro User Group, and owner of Precision Design Co.

Reply 0
Rick Sutton

To be clear about my structures

If they were true paper and cardboard structures I would't let water get anywhere near them. Same with scale wood or wood craftsman construction.

 My buildings are generally thin plywood base and major walls with internal structural elements made from styrene or from one by scraps that I cut to fit with a very accurate Byrnes table saw. Glues are carefully picked depending on materials to be bonded. The outside of the building is styrene sheets with gloss photos applied with 3M Super 99 spray and brayed onto the styrene. Everything is sprayed with Dulcote to kill the shine and seal the paper as best as I can. I have tried many other sealing sprays including some meant for UV protection but I've noticed subtle color shifts that I can't abide. I have not found photo laminate to be successful to my standards for roofs, roads, concrete pads or sidewalks. This has had a very beneficial side effect that I never foresaw. The photo lam on my structures is almost always used on a vertical surface so when I start the misting on the roof I'm generally hitting metal, styrene or some kind of composite that has lots of paint on it. The water then quickly moves across the more vulnerable paper areas before depositing the schmutz on the "ground". Sometimes a series of failures with a technique like photo lam on flat surfaces is a blessing in disguise.

Reply 0
Great Divide

Super detail & practical use

When it comes to tree's and ground cover and many of the super details we all love, I had the benefit in my exhibit building life of using some of the fantastic foliage products for deciduous trees and glycerine soaked natural miniature evergreen fern/moss from the Pacific Northwest to make some nice contrasting scenery. In those instances these models were to be and still are enclosed in a sealed cases. Incredible looking, no doubt, as these products are just outstanding in scale and effect.  But I could never hope to deal with dust on a regular basis with this work, unless I had a very small layout that was easy to access and I took great pains to clean it and to keep it dust free as possible to begin with.      

  For those of us who operate a working, scale model layout there is a whole new level of detail and practical, usable durability to consider.    I am sure this group knows all this, I am not breaking any new thoughts out here, just having a discussion.   If you only want to take some great photographs and are not concerned that you lose some of your foam or leaf work detail in cleaning, well then no down side.     But every shovel you lean against a wall or power line you run, you add to your cleaning work.  In fact ya might as well plan on redoing some details and picking through the dust bin to retrieve parts as part of the cleaning work.  

  On a small shelf layout where you can reach easily.... and if it is not to extensive in size...  why care about any of this?   I'd say go for it, detail away...... cleaning is easier and it would be worth the extra effort to be careful in cleaning and be able to go for all the details.    A big advantage there in the janitorial duties we all have.        

      But if you have 700 feet of track, tall mountains, 120 bridges, large forests, loose rocks on mountain sides, and cities full of details and people and 7' deep to the wall.... Well, there is no magic formula.   This is what I am facing.   It is all part of the duties that will be a real part of my future schedule.   A significant amount of work here and no way round it...   So please realise my dust filter work in the room is good advice.  Curing the disease is the best way to address the problem before you clean the symptoms.  Set up your room to help you.   The cleaning is still best done with small vacuums, compressed air, and your favorite long stem brushes.   

 

Someone mentioned Alcohol washes... This does work for some of the hard to clean or stubborn areas.  You can also get a nice rain weathered look as an added benefit, in some cases...  LOL.  But in tree's the wash seems to simply make the loose dust bury itself down in the foliage and I am not sure how often this will work before the tangle hair, gray dust bunny gunk will more or less ruin the color of the foliage...  I have tweezard many a fuzz ball out of and off the ends of branches.  And recoloring is possible... but it seems to matt things down quickly.   So it seems to me a wash method will work for a while but eventually you end up with a tree that looks like it has green carpeting draped over a straw.  Tree's are no doubt a real concern.  These factors are the reason why some modelers make the choice to run trains  and save as much cleaning from the schedule and others work harder to have a more detailed set up....        

 

Randy

Reply 0
Rick Sutton

"plan on redoing some details and picking through the dust bin"

My life in a nutshell.

although fitting screens to vacuum systems does keep the dustbin searching down.....a little!

Even doing closeup photography causes all kinds of havoc with details and utility lines. 

OK. I'll fess up. I'm a bit klutzy.....usually not paying close attention to objects "off screen" is the biggest cause of damage for me.

Reply 0
Rick Sutton

Dust bunnies

Thank goodness I don't have those. Spider webs, yes.

 Forgot to mention that after misting trees a very small amount of some fresh leaves is the cherry on top.

Reply 0
gogebic

Dust Control

I've had some of my layout scenery for over ten years now and during that time have had very little dust. I contribute that to planning the layout room before constructing the layout.

I think the most important thing is to not use a pressed acoustic ceiling tile.  The vibration from walking on the floors above causes the tiles to abraid in the grid channels, which generates a lot of dust. My solution is to use 1/8" white glossy coated hardboard panels instead. This serves two purposes: catches dust from the flooring sheets and joists above and reflects light on the layout.

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Reply 0
On30guy

What I do

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That big blue pillow is actually a fan, hanging on a light stand, with some furnace filter taped to the the "blowing" side. I position this near where I am cleaning and blast the dust off the layout with the airbrush. This gives me good control over the amount of air I need as well as the ability to get into tight corners. The resulting dust storm will mostly get sucked into the fan and caught by the filter. It's a bit unorthodox, to be sure, but it is amazing how much brighter the colours are after I'm done.

Rick Reimer,

President, Ruphe and Tumbelle Railway Co.

Read my blogs

Reply 2
Marc

About dust

 

I think we all fight with dust, this is a universal problem for layout, especialy for layout which grow older.

I have fight dust like all of us, but now I'm ready to work to expand my layout, I come with some really reflection about fighting dust.

 

I firmly beleive the first thing to do is to avoid as much as possible dust production in the train room, meaning no work which is dust producer as much as possible in this room

I have try to use part of these rules the last then years and I admit, dust was minimized as far as possible.

This is a list of the things I try to do to minimize dust in my train room; these rules will be used when I will start work for the extension of my N scale layout.

 

Of course this start with a good layout plan and all the surrounding stuff which are needed for train construction; they are all made before any layout  work.

A good scheduling in construction stage can avoid introduction of a lot of dust in the train room in the future.

The room need to be painted, the ground sealed, all the major high voltage work done

If possible valence, which need for sure, to drill holes in the ceiling must be also done.

When these basic works are done, the room must be heavily vaccumed, including ground, walls and any cranies where dust can be.

When the room is ready, I come again with the main rule, no heavy work in the train room except benchwork, and about benchwork, most of the most of the wood is cut outside of the train room.

The  benchwork wood pieces, when cut, are blowed with air compressor before to be put in the train room ; when you saw a piece of wood is amazing the volume of dust which is on the cut wood piece.

I will also avoid any filing of wood in the train room., the benchwork is painted, white or black.

When benchwork is done I will blow off again everything and vaccum the residual dust.

I will not use homasote or similar product again to avoid dust production, cork will be preferred.

Screw holes in the fascia or join which need to be filled are done with water putty and filled with sand paper an a little water.; this don't disturb the work and the filling , no production and  propagation of dust.

I will avoid to use plasterboard for backdrop, to much dust production, but in place  hanged linoleum which will be the backdrop., no join, a continuous backdrop and much faster to construct.

Any drilling of filling, or work which produce residue are done under the use of a vaccum.

I avoid since then years the use of plaster in the train room, hardshell is red rosin paper; a like goop is used to make form or some scenery base, this goop don't produce dust.

Non plaster hardshell is also a a good win win against dust; Red Rosin paper is unfortunately not enough explained and showed, but so easy to use and extremly strong.....but don't produce any dust when working with it.

All the rocks molds are made outside the train room,even they are in plaster,  they are glued dry on the red rosin paper.hardshell

The train room is always closed, there is a join all around the door so no dust can come from the outside.

The room is weekly vaccumed especialy the ground.

When I lived in Belgium, I used a big blower, It had already some years and was from  a chip chop, which where numerous in Belgium; the air inlet was covered with a piece of filter from a kitchen extractor hood; this blower was running all the time I was working in the train room; the volume or air used by the blower really catched a lot of suspended dust in the air.

I now need to find one again since I live in Québec; the results were amazing ; the filter turned in a brown gray color in less than a month use; dust which don't go on the layout.

The valance is also a support of hanging curtains which protect the layout when not in use; I take this trick from the book of Georges Sellios about his FSM.

I will apply all of these rules in the extension and construction of my expanded Maclau River in N scale.

May be some of these rules can help you. against the dust devil.

 

 

On the run whith my Maclau River RR in Nscale

Reply 0
Great Divide

Hanging Fan and Filter

Rick, simplistic, cheap, and totally effective.     Brilliant....!   

    I use a drywall/tapers fan... No Filter... really moves lots of air and I direct it at my pull down stairs where there is a BIG attic vent fan that causes nice suction and draws it all out...   I open a window on the far end of the room and you can feel the air moving...   This is the summertime fix anyway.  This attic fan works great if I  use spray paint or spray glue as well.   but your solution is portable and can be used anywhere.  

Randy

       

Reply 0
packnrat

dust...

.

well best way to deal with dust is to stop it first.

go to a hardware store, the big box kind.

back between the appliances and carpet areas there are these free standing air filters. (yes you get to drop coin on replacing filters as needed).

they work great, i use one in my small house to control allergens. there are no dust flakes of any kind floating around in the air at my place.

yes vacuums on the layout to get what does get there.

now i do not have a central heat/ac, so no filtering there. even if i did have central i would use one or two of these units to make sure the air is very clean and stays such.

but think in layers to keep clean, and you get to clean up less.

maybe if not going to work/use your layout for a long time. cheap bed sheets to catch dust from dropping onto things?

Reply 0
eastwind

Dusting rolling stock

So I have this idea, but haven't tried it. It's specifically for dusting rolling stock, not the layout in general. I suppose some of you just let your rolling stock stay dusty, you can call it weathering if that makes you feel ok about it. 

I understand from others that blowing the dirt off works better than using a brush, as it doesn't leave dust streaks and is easier on the details. And I know some people use an airbrush without paint to blow the dirt off. This is a similar idea, but does't require you to handle each car or remove it from the layout to clean and it collects the dust.

So my idea is to convert one of the tunnels on the layout to a wind tunnel. Line the inside of the tunnel for the entire tunnel length to contain the air and dust. Add a source of positive air pressure blowing down into the tunnel from an opening in the tunnel roof close to one and, and a source of suction near the other end of the tunnel with an old nylon stocking over the outlet to catch anything details that blow off. Power the thing up and just drive your cars through like a car wash. 

With some tubing connected to the tunnel ends you could provide vacuum connections to temporarily hook up a shop vac to provide the air pressure and suction, then detach the shop vac when you're through cleaning cars. Or you could even run a line from your airbrush compressor if you can work something out to sufficiently limit the output pressure and diffuse the air flow to a wider 'spray'. 

You can call me EW. Here's my blog index

Reply 0
Jwmutter

Head dust off before it happens

To reduce the potential dust issues, in both basements where I’ve built railroads I sealed the concrete and walls before starting to finish the room.  I stapled plastic sheeting to the bottoms of the overhead floor joists, cleaned and sealed the block walls with Dry-Loc (which also reduces the humidity), and painted the floor. I do still get some dust, but a lot less than I did in my first basement.  

Jeff Mutter, Severna Park, MD

Http://ELScrantonDivision.railfan.net

Reply 0
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