Some of Randy's photos ...

Photos - Click to enlarge ...

Randy's track plan

Photos of Randy's progress so far (just getting started with Great Divide and Port ... (click to enlarge)

My questions for Randy

Golden rods and sawdust

Golden rods and sawdust indeed.   

It is not even possible to pile all the new techniques for just setting realistic scenery into place since Johns day.  Yes indeed Joe things have changed.   This topic alone could go into overdrive. John did really well for his day but even myself as a huge fan of his work had noticed since a kid that his mountains were very sparsely forested.    Now that does not mean they were not supposed to be, or the way he wanted them, so my thoughts here are nothing more than my own personal observation and my taste for more greenery. and I will increase the greenery and tree's but not enough to lose the beautiful rugged rock features made so famous in his many magazine photo spreads.  Ya can't really change almost vertical cliffs anyway.  But a little greenery here and there will only enhance them to my thinking.  Plant life tries to cling to any place the seeds fall if there is any soil and water to be had.

 So I will be adding more green across the whole layout and my techniques are like most, modelers with any time under their belt,  a mix of several tried and true realistic tree making methods and I will probably make use of some old jars of dyed fine sawdust, general small tree and brush techniques to simulate dead underbrush and ground cover... and modern day colored foams where I just want a nice canopy.  I have finished some of the rocks in what seems a good realistic appearance. And I have so much work to still do, so these final additions are a little way down the pike... reaching over everything and making a mess in some cases,  I will save the scenery greenery for later on. 

   I still work in plaster and have not taken to the foam cutting techniques yet.  I have not had to really.   but I do admit they are lighter and with some time in the saddle working the techniques I have seen some really good work done in foam. I may have to deal with it when I get tot the bigger areas...?  but I am so fast with plaster and it is cheap enough and I apply it thin enough that I may just stick with the stuff I know how to work with so well. 

 There is something to be said for not having to learn every new trick.   If ya got game..  then just play.  If your game is lagging behind.  Then by all means... Please...   teach yourself something new.   Look the various tutorials and find out which one you take to the best and perfect it...  Push yourself a little to get better than your first attempt and you will be even more proud of your work. 

I have many seedum plants that when clipped and trunks sprayed then dipped in fine foam or the new leaf materials they can look great, and quick.  I have a large bag of desert sage brush for some really fun trees on rocky crags to show a tough life in the wind and sun and weather.   I will make some of the twisted or highly detailed gnarled tree's that are right up front from the twisted wire methods as well.   That is a fun technique...  You can get lost for hours adding more wore for a thicker trunk and more branches...  Really impressive when done adding some plaster or clay for bark....  And bushes from twisted rope fibers cut and and foamed or just from twigs found on the ground or small plants clipped at the tips.... 

The large conifer/evergreens from trimmed mats of coconut fiber (same technique as the green air filter methods) with sanded tapered trunks painted various browns and rings glued and cut up and pulled apart some painting... and on the closer trees some super fine foam dipping..  And the for the iconic write home to mom trees made from drilled and inserted glycerin treated miniature moss/fern material from the pacific northwest.  Not sure what its called but it is just the coolest looking scale needled branch plant I have ever seen.   A man named Bob Rudge turned me on to the stuff when I was younger.  He is from the State of Washington, worked for Boeing I think... On a side note....; I tried to let him know I was finally building a layout a while back and that it was a remake of the G&D. I think he told me he had visited John in a conversation many years ago.    but I missed his passing by about 6 months.  The little tree he sent me, many years ago is still here.. and it still looks like it did the day he sent it to me 35 years ago.   So it will go on the layout in a nice spot.     

 It is amazing how good multi colored foam and some tree branches can look from 4' away.  It is fun to have tree trunks keeping some of it hovering and thin enough to allow light through so you can see the shaded ground...  I will have some fun hidden scenes going on back in the woods.   So there will be lots of areas with the shade of foliage overhead but where you can see up into and under the canopy.  Right in the rocks around the engine house there will be a fun little scene from my own childhood with a few kids with lanterns heading into some caves.... I will have some flickering lamps wicks in the cave and some feet disappearing into the hole and the next kid waiting his turn. 

And speaking of scenery, my best buddy;  a fat, old, orange cat named "Wall-e"  I think I will do a "where's walle" for the kids type game... and see if they can find them all.  For the big kids to.    He will be everywhere where anyone is doing anything on this layout. On buildings, on trains, on freight docks, fences, in garages on streets and in windows.   He went everywhere with me like a dog in his short life... and he  even had a deer he befriended who actually came to see him in the summers.  I only managed to get one photo of that and it is blurry as I was trying to walk and shoot to not miss the shot of noses touching...     I digress....   

Randy       

Moderator: Text split apart for readability.

The Control Panels.... 

The Control Panels....   total optional dilemma for me there.   Good question Joe.     It is one I struggle with, especially since I made the choice to go with DCC.    I was going to use modern equipment for DC and the panels would have been built to resemble Johns in every way.  He had four.... I have been told he ended up with 5 but can not verify that.   

The panels were part of the overall feel and heart of the layout. I have to have some control boards even with DCC so I think I will try and mimic his boards looks..  I have the DC current Amperage and Voltage meters in the same square black faced styles.   I have boxes of toggles I do not have the lever style control arms he liked to use.  So it looks like I will take some extra time to try and build boards very similar to his for the nostalgic value and historic accuracy.   He had two distinct and well remembered control panels the largest one at Gorre and the other right under the cutoff switch area that ran the yards and the engine house area and then two smaller control panels one at Andrews and one for Port.  Again I could make them very small, but there is some real value in keeping them accurate.  I have a feeling the work will be so involved they may be a project I will compete later and I will use smaller easier to hide panels with DCC...and then place to older looking boards over these and rewire... 

I have a full PFM sound system here....  and 20 steam modules to go into as many engines for sound.  Those PFM systems I have heard and I was totally impressed with them in every way.    I actually think they sound better than some of the newer DCC sounds but not enough of a difference to try and keep the system or to try and make it work on some hybrid contrabulation...  If I had already installed these in my engines I might not want to go DCC.... but considering I have to do the work anyway.   With so many operational, lighting and accessory advantages (even operating kadee couplers) DCC is the way I will go for sounds and everything else.   It makes total sense and will actually be a bit easier to wire as the components do much of the work.... I have to get the runs done and the plug and play strips will do most of the rest.  Amazing really.       

John was playing with some of the sounds of his day. The PFM systems were just new at the end of his time. He has installed some Modeltronics units and liked them but he would be blown away to hear and see what PFM did in the end... and even more so with what is being done now in DCC.    

Randy

Modern techniques

As much of fan of John's scenery as I am, I can't imagine doing things completely the old way. I do my best to get the feel and atmosphere of the G&D scenery but I use all the modern techniques to do it. I have found that I still work best with plaster. Foam always ends up with a wedding cake type look for me. I only use it in small doses.

Attempting the John Allen/Jack Work style trees is something I've never tried but I hope to find the time to do so soon now when I shift to a more detail oriented phase on my pike.

Randy, I invite you to take a look at my blog sometimes. I don't want to upset anyone and claim to be the biggest JA fan here but I have to be close to the top. I don't shoot for the re creation that you do but John's influence is in everything I do.

Ahhh... so that's what a Blog

Ahhh... so that's what a Blog means?    I did take a look.... I gotta go back and check that all out and I certainly will. 

    Dude nice stuff there...!   This site goes far deeper and has more options than I realized.  I am actually one of the last of the dinosaurs bortha. 

I do not own now and refuse to ever own a cell phone and my computer knowledge is functional at some level. but it's not impressive.   Even to a 5 year old... I'm kinda the slow kid. 

 I really am a dinosaur of the past Michael...  even the music I played was old Prog.. tribute level covers from Yes and Gentle Giant and some old Genesis, Pink Floyd, ELP, Jethro Tull, Focus, Atomic Roster, UK, Frank Zappa.  That music has long since died a horrible death on the popular culture charts and venues.... only a lucrative but dwindling (dying) audience of loyal patrons is left to perform for.         

I will over to get involved in your page... blog...  thing.    Thanks for the heads up.   Randy 

The control panel

Randy, that Gorre control panel was so prominent, it seems there ought to be something we can do to still have it and make its function relevant even for DCC.

Have to give that some thought. One idea would be something like what Peter Vassallo did in the Sept MRH cover story where he has a "progress" routing chart. If you added some detection, then the Gorre Panel could show LEDs to track train progress. Kinda overkill, but would give that Gorre panel something to do.

Or maybe we can come up with another DCC use for that Gorre panel.

Which leads to another question ... turnouts throwing. Maybe finger-flicking points? That's simple enough to do and would avoid any under-the-roadbed turnout motor mounting headaches. As long as the turnouts can be reached from the aisle, finger-flicking is great. But if John has any hard-to-reach turnouts, maybe the Gorre panel could be used to throw those?

Plus with finger-flicking points, no ugly ground throws needed either.

Oh yes, and if you use frog juicers to route frog power, that's a natural with finger-flicking turnout points!

Just a thought and it's

Just a thought and it's probably a deep rabbit hole to go down but could one 3D print older style control levers and such to get the look, yet update function? DCC can certainly lend itself to control panels for turnouts if desired. The name escapes me but I know at least one manufacturer out there makes a "control tower" type board or board set that can centralize control.

Agreed.    The main panel has

Agreed.    The main panel has got to be there. And again I think this is my plan, if I typed my answer earlier correctly (I will have to check) I have the meters and the toggles but still have to find the old lever type throttle handles... and yes..  I will make the toggles work and function.  but some of the things will just be there for show...  In the meantime to get the layout running and done in my lifetime...  I will build a much smaller easily hidden panel that will reside behind the big panel..  That way converting it over someday in the future will not be so hard to do.    Gotta have it...  Was all set with plug in DC walk around controls and main panels that functioned the same as what John had...  but DCC is just the best option now.  Its the overall expense of all the units for a three or four zone set up and about 20 engines to control that hurts the most.  But considering nothing is wired yet and only feed wires hanging. It is the best option for this build. 

The handles are out there. 

The handles are out there.  Train Shows will be a good bet.  If I have any time for them.    But a 3D print version would be fine... if I had the schematics of an original..  That might be harder for me to find than and eBay search and buy an old control unit compete.   DCC is easy enough to understand as I only need to understand the components and clip my questions and worries into each receptacle and my worries are taken away.   I do have a few DCC questions.    But I am in no hurry for trains.  I am content to drop feeders and run bus wires and plan for separate zones and figure all the rest out later.      

Thinking out loud

How about an large flat screen (touch) screen to 'simulate' John's panel but give you full dcc control functions.  In a pix it would still 'look' like the panel but . . . Hmmmm  Russ

Well Russ today anything is

Well Russ today anything is possible.  Amazing really.  But I am not a wealthy. #1 at least not after the divorce......  As cool as I will admit that would be to have a touch screen control panel at gorre; a large part of this build is historic by design and I want to capture Johns layout and layout room feel when you walk in.   Some good model building and improvements are always sought after and welcomed if it enhances the build but stays fairly true to the original I go for it.   A touch screen is just a bit out of bounds.    

I think building the main panel.. perhaps 80% size would be fine.  And loading it with toggles that work and meters that can work... and some false controls... this would be good enough for its purpose.   

Randy

Original GD Mountain Scenery

I grew up in Calif. and spent a lot of time up in the Sierra Mts John claimed his RR ran through on a north/south line. Knowing that once I saw his route map at some point, it always struck me that his mountains were way to vertical for the location his RR ran. Unless of course he kept the rails up around + or - 9000ft. His mountains were way to steep except to be that high up which is also above the tree line, which is why he had no trees. Or at least that is how my teenage mind came up with an explanation.

He did have a logging scene so you could put in a whole lot of stumps instead of trees. Not sure when clear cutting was outlawed, but it would help to cut down on the # of trees you will need to come up with. And if his RR reached as far south as the Kings Canyon area you are going to need them 2ft or taller.

Always have been a John Allen fan since I saw my first article of his in the early 60's? My first real MR was an N scale 5x9 in my over sized bedroom at about 1966-67 and it featured a shorter version of the Squaw Creek High Bridge. Also one of my first scratch building attempts.

enjoying the conversation,    Jack

Emma?

Is there any hope that you will hatch Emma, switching stegosaurus #13?

DrJolS

That's a nice memory and ya

That's a nice memory and ya gotta find a photo of that old layout... might be fun to see that.   His high bridge over Squawbottom is no joke..  The bridges I have to build are intimidating just in shear number of different bridges.  And those Two High Bridges   Wow.. there will be some late nights there in my future.   

The High Sierras are the stuff of dreams for this northeastern boy.  Kind of a bucket list trip for me now.  Always figured I'd get in the car one day and just go....  but time has a way of staying hidden during the choices where your talking yourself into being practical and it always tells you there is plenty to be had.  

   I think john modeled many places in his mind that I'd bet he visited.   The Gore Canyon is one.   He has an area that does look like that. At some point he was just covering mountains that fit the track he laid out below and he needed high perches for the bridges to link to and travel across the space he had at 60 inches..... So the steepness was dictated by whatever the design needed to make it all work.  The logging idea is a good one...  I will use that in an area... all in all his lack of tree's may have been one of the things he would have gone back to and kept changing or adding to as he went along.   That's part of the problem of telling Johns story as a rebuild in 3D....  He never was really done.  So a small amount of liberty is OK on some things.    

    I know it was mention somewhere that at some point John just did not care about much it all anymore.  He really was interested in Railroad "Operations" and the excellent model railroad around the tracks was secondary to him and it served its purpose well as it was.    And he was pushing to get his railroad finished and open up his "Summit Route" with the completion of his last bridge when he died.    So we will never know how large his HOn3 track would have eventually been, nor what improvements he might have made to so many things.  Time ran out on him.  

  I will get a web page eventually.  I do not like Facebook but the page is free and anyone can see it the way I have it set up.   Please let me know if you can't.  they do make changes all the time without telling anyone.   There's new photo's there now and usually once a week I've got something worth a shot or two...  

Thanks for the note Jack  

Yes Indeed DrjolS,  Emma is

Yes Indeed DrjolS,  Emma is already here.  She is kind of a collectors dinosaur.. it took me some time to research and find her but find her I did. 

She is not to be worked very much by the crew.  But she is gentle and will help some of the guy's who feed her all the time and she loves to be washed by the high pressure hose with a little steam heat mixed in.  She will pull cars for an hour for that treat. 

Please check out my facebook page. I have a long way to go but there's some fun things to see if you know the layout at all.    https://www.facebook.com/Great-Divide-Lines-423511918192732/?modal=admin_todo_tour  and here's a page that has hundreds of photogrpahs of Johns place where you can get a good look at his work even during construction.  If you only know of Linn's book  you'll love this page and the guy's who created it are the salt of the earth and wanted to tell Johns story just as I do.  Enjoy   http://www.gdlines.org/

Randy

MRH Note: Zoom in on the roundhouse photo we posted and you will see Emma (and friend) just like John had:

I'm excited that Joe started

I'm excited that Joe started this thread. I will be following with great interest as John is my MRR hero and the G&D a huge inspiration for me. I need to go back and read it through and through as I have only glanced at it this morning. But right now it is time for me to get ready to head to work, dang it anyway!

As much of fan of John's

Looking at the track plan, I am reminded of another thing about the old days, spaghetti track plans.  But if the goal of the layout builder is to somewhat re-create John Allens Gory & Defeated  then from what little I've seen of it, it looks about right.

Spaghetti track plans.  lol

Spaghetti track plans.  lol, well yes Jim looking at the plans on paper it certainly is. (thanks for the kind words btw)  John had a friend, Jerry Drake.  Jerry had a railroad called the "Bent Spaghetti Lines" from back in the day of cute and clever names.  He had a model layout but the rumor was it did not have much in the way of scenery elevation and the lopes were all right on top of each other with criss-crossing bridges and short tunnels and lots of crossings. Jerry once had a nice slide show of Johns layout, (I'd like to find) he was from the Milwaukee area I think.  Sadly he passed not long after John did.  And his layout was long gone in the 1970's so I can't be sure of its design.  But this was the rumored reason it was named this. I think John had a small Italian style restaurant named for him that I still have to find.  

So your comment is right on.     But when you actually see John's layout opened up in 3D it is more impressive than the average spaghetti table top modeler of the day, by far.   Johns use of elevation really does separate the track so that each lope is making stops at different stations and a natural progression of scenery is available for viewing. Raising a train just 5 inches will keep the viewer looking at each level separately .  There is almost 3' of separation from the lowest run to the highest here.    That makes this fun to see and a real challenge to build.

The 2%-3% grades make it all very real as well.   Smaller trains, slower speeds, with the smallest radius @ 26" this all helps to tell a more realistic story.  (as well as any model can)   I can't wait to do an actual cab ride video for the first time of Johns railroad. I am even finishing much of the interiors of the tunnels so camera's can at least travel in without seeing the 2x4's and bench work and electrical wires hanging and splice the video on the longer runs..  so it looks like a real tunnel portal as you come out the other side as well.  These are things John never had to deal with back in his day.  

Packing the amount of mainline track he did into that space back in the 1950's, when he started this project, is only rivaled by today's, stacked shelf layouts,  (forgive me if that is not what they are called).  Anyway I hope you guy's all check out the work as it moves along.  And do check out the GDlines page as a reference.  

https://www.facebook.com/Great-Divide-Lines-423511918192732/?modal=admin_todo_tour

Dale I am just as excited to

Dale I am just as excited to do the build as well.    I can tell you this will take some time to finish but if ya always liked the G&D this will become something you'll have to follow along with.  Please find my links to my facebook page I have posted in here... for the best photo timeline... and I hope you can come and see this one day. 

Joe seems to have captured a good and diverse group of model railroad enthusiasts in there...  all levels and interests.  John sort of spans all these groups and for many good reasons.  So this might make for an interesting feature that can be visited for a long time while it is still in its construction phase....   

   I will try and answer any questions while I continue plodding along.  Don't forget to check my facebook page and please use the GDLines web page I sent as well as a reference page to go to as needed.  I use it every day.  You can check it to verify what I am doing and to help remember or understand what I am trying to end up with in the early stages of any section I get into.    I will figure out how to add a photo in the posts when they can be helpful  right now I am still checking the site out as it is quite impressive with all its many features...   

Randy   

Track Plan - Randy

John had made severals studies about the plan of his GD and the final one we all know now; this was a one year sketc plan and try and error like all of us.

Your plan with scalp mountain quiet oval was one of the envisionned plan John has draw.

This was one of the least studies before the final plan.

The plan with this oval scalp moutain was published by MR.

For some unknow reason I have always liked the oval design.

Your plan is great and help to correct some little flaw of the John design.

Years ago I made a plan largely inspired by the GD when I have received the book of Linn Westcot from dad.

This plan included port, great divide, gorre, scalp and andrews, but with  more operationnal feature like siding and more track going in industry especialy in the return loop just back of squawbottom and helegon gap, just to kill the lone return loop.

I see your alterations of the original plan  are going in the same way.

I'm in the way to design a new track plan  for my N scale layout because I have the chance to have a big room for my dream layout.

I includes two GD features, first a starting point with a line going up, the mountain run and from the same starting point a line going down, the river run which allow big difference in track height at the end of the run of the lines, like John with the Andrews run and squawbottom run.

The second is the possibility to include sims loop in the design with his lone cliff.

Anyway you have a beautiful project on the way.

Yes I live now since a month in Québec Canada, living definitively Europe and I was very happy to see there is a real town named  "GORE" but with only one "R" in Québec between Mont tremblant and Ottawa.

I do have a few changes to

I do have a few changes to Johns plan.  But one is my attempt to fix the height of the car ferry and gives a slightly different approach to Anabelle but even that is not drawn in correctly and I need to revise those plans to show it correctly. 

 The only other change I know of is caused by a choke point I had to make to be able to fit all the modeling John had, I had to tweak the room a bit and put an addition on to get this space so it would work.   But this did created a tight area right at the cutoff switch.  I had to sacrifice part of Johns extra switch options there. In truth, some of his siding options there were not needed, but I did keep a double slip switch (like the one he was so proud of building) but moved it out to the mainline rather than where he had it back by Austin Street and the Central Valley building. I also had to stretch out the yard feeder tracks before they create a yard to get by the mountain as I did not have the same depth here as John did.  But that does not mean much or change anything really, same number of tracks, passenger and freight, same sidings in there will be found.  So all in all pretty mundane changes.    Those are the only real track plan changes I know of and not mainline changes at all. 

  Now it is very possible I missed something in the design.  I did draw that up so I have the basic track work and I could establish the bench work in this space as my room is different in shape than Johns.    Everything is here but the shape of Johns cellar was a diagonal space in general.    He had deep alcoves along both walls that created a very unique space.  Hard to find or make a space like that without a really large area to work with.  I had to push and pull and close in windows and move doors to make it happen for me.   But its all here. 

If you have more space to work with.... take your time...  Keep moving things around make sure you give yourself access to everything but fit as much into the space as possible.....  N scale gives you so much to work with in a room.  Have fun Marc. send the plans when ya get something you're happy with.... remember they are a guide only... you can change them some as you build.  It's your world.  

Canada has some beautiful landscapes Marc.   I think the train ride that connects the east and west coast might be the most beautiful anywhere in the world.  

Randy

I'm glad you're doing this. I

I'm glad you're doing this. I have always been a big fan of John Allen and I will keep watching your progress.

Thumbs up

Thank you for the thumbs up Michael... 

 When you see progress being made, please figure a few head bumps on the bench work or slivers in the hand and the occasional misuse of Johns name most likely went into it.   lol....  ! 

This winter will see some movement toward reaching those famous floor to ceiling scenic areas.  

Randy