Outstanding video

You have definitely captured the feeling of modern day railroading in the western 'burbs of Chicago and beyond.

Regards,

GNNPNUT

Excellent

Your layout certainly shows the advantage of a good sized space, N scale, and a good track plan!  Showing the operation of a single train is a nice way to not miss any of the details, I’m looking forward to part 2.

Thanks!

Daryl,

Thanks for sharing the video. I always enjoy seeing how others run/operate their layouts. Will be looking forward to part 2!

Don't know if I missed it, but do you have your track plan posted somewhere we can look at?

Operations

Its nice to see an operations video that actually explains operations.  Good job.

Observations and some additional proto info:

The term a railroad would use is a "classification" track or "class track" rather than a "storage track".  Storage implies something different.

When they shove cars into the departure track, the brakeman wouldn't couple the air hoses while setting the train.  Once they get the whole train shoved into the departure track, then carman connect all the air hoses and do the air tests.

The CNW was left hand running railroad due to the commuter operations, west of the commuter district the railroad converts back over to a right hand running operation.

Generally on the UP, through freights don't do industry switching.  Through freights make "station" set out and pick ups, whole blocks of cars.  Then locals and switch engines do the actual industry work.

Proviso would be more likely to run MPRNP (N Platte), MPRCB (Council Bluffs), MPRDM (Des Moines) or MPRKC (Kansas City).  If they did run a Texas train  it would be most likely a MPRFW since there is a classification yard in Ft Worth and there isn't a class yard in Dallas.  An intermodal train might go to the Dallas area (IG3DI - intermodal Global 3 to DIT-Dallas Intermodal Terminal or IG3MQ/ZG3MQ to Mesquite).  

If you varied the destinations (NP or CB or DM or KC) you could vary the car types.  The NP train will be heavy with bulkhead flats and reefers going back to Idaho and the pacific NW, plus soda ash covered hopper empties to Green River.  A CB or DM train would have lots of tank cars and grain covered hoppers, the DM train would have frac sand empties, the KC train would have auto parts box cars, chemical tank cars and chemical (plastics) covered hoppers.

Depending on era, the UP tried to put AC's on bulk trains, SD70's and C44-9's on premium trains (intermodal and automotive) and then SD70's, SD60's and C40-8's on regular manifest.  The C44AC's were part of the "black fleet", the SD70's and C44-9's were in the "red fleet" and the rest were in the "blue fleet".  The red fleet ran E-W, primarily on the UP/CNW and the blue fleet ran N-S, primarily on the MP/MKT.  SD40's and GP's were in the "green fleet" for local and yard service.  The standard coal train power was 2 C44AC's on the point of a 100-105 car coal train and  2 C44's on the point and one on the rear of a 125-150 car coal train.  There should always be a CNW or UP engine on the point of any train because of the CNW cab signals.  SP and foreign engines will always be trailing engines in the consist.

Once again, nice looking layout, always good to see an operating N scale layout.  With the modern equipment they can operate just as well as the HO layouts.

Hi Dave, Glad you liked the

Hi Dave,

Glad you liked the video and the layout. 

I lived in Rochelle, IL for 17 years and have a ton of first hand experience watching trains on the Geneva Sub.  So, I have a few corrections to your corrections.

First, the UP is left hand running throughout the Geneva Sub which includes the entire trek across northern Illinois. I have not seen this anywhere in writing, but have observed it firsthand. 

Second, while there may be a red, green, purple whatever plan, any locomotive can be on any type of train.  In the hundreds of times I rode my bike to the UP/BNSF crossing to watch trains, I did not see any noticeable locomotive plan.

All the trains I run on the Geneva Sub are actual trains that I read about or I saw on documentation engineers would toss out of their cabs at the crossing in Rochelle.  I could mix up the trains from day to day.  Your train information would be helpful for that.  Thanks.  However, the ratio of time spent to increased enjoyment may make it awhile before I take that step.

As far as N scale being able to operate just as good as HO, I know you meant it as a compliment, but it is not.   Just say its a nice operating layout. 

Daryl

Left hand OP's

As for Left handed operation, I've railfanned the Northwestern from Marshalltown, IA to Fremont, NE a lot back before the Borg took over and even though most of that stretch is single track main, it was still run per LH rule.

Once they reached Fremont and was on UP trackage then they ran per UP rules.  I don't they changed that either after the takeover, unless it's been within the last several years.  I was told that the infrastructure would have ALL had to change as well?

Signalling

If it's not all bidirection CTC the signaling system would need to have a lot of changes to run RH as normal.

The joint UP/CP (former CNW/MILW) double track from Shermer to Bryn Mawr runs left hand as well. Ran over that plenty with CP and orders were necessary to run wrong main and there are no approach signals for absolutes, so one has to approach them prepared to stop. So, you don't want to run wrong main.

Not familiar with the old CNW main west out of Chicaqgo but some crossovers may be the "wrong" way as well if they were to run RH, meaning more expense to change.

Left hand last time I looked

The North Western from Chicago to end of double track at Denison, Iowa was still left hand running at the time the Borg swallowed it up.  Since then the double track was reinstalled to Missouri Valley.  Since then several stretches of reversed signaled 2 Main Tracks have been installed in eastern Iowa.  Maybe more since then.  I'm sure with PTC the whole line has been resignalled since then.

Scott Chatfield

@Daryl

Sorry, didn't mean anything by it.  I've run into people that shy away from N scale layouts on ops weekends because 30 years ago they operated on N scale layouts with older equipment that had coarse detail and jackrabbit operation.  Frankly, that's why I got out of N scale 35 years ago.   Its not true today.

I guess I should have said because of the commuter district.  They swap the trains over to right hand running wherever they can, so its usually someplace in eastern Iowa or western Illinois.  A lot depends on the amount of traffic and the spacing of the trains.

Many moons ago the CNW (and UP) was rule 251 current of traffic but the conversion to 2 main track CTC started about the time of the UP merger and its been bi directional for at least a decade or two.

One other thing on the Geneva Sub is there is (or was) a commuter curfew where they stopped running freight trains during rush hour so it didn't block the commuter trains.

Then the plan was in full force.   It also depends on the era, certain times they stratified the power more than others, also as the fleet mix changed, the plan changed.  As they retired the C40's and -9's, purged the SD60's and bumped the SD40's to local service, maintaining fleets was less important because the remaining fleet was equipped for everything and the majority of the fleet were newer high HP engines.  At the time of the UP merger the CNW fleet had everything from 1952 vintage GP7's to C44AC's, the UP fleet was all -2 or newer. 

Plus a BIG deal before the 2000's was the issue of CNW ATC and ATS which severely restricted the ability of engines to lead a train.  We always kept a spare CNW equipped engine at Fremont as an emergency engine in case an eastward train engine wasn't equipped with a CNW leader.   There were special fleets of engines that were equipped with both CNW AC and UP CCS and an even more restrictive fleet that had CNW ATS too. That's why SP C44AC's were confined to be trailing engines on coal trains for the first decade after the merger.  They weren't equipped with UP CCS, CNW ATC or UP DPU.  They were glorified B units.  It wasn't until they were shopped and repainted into the UP fleet that they were equipped.  Now with PTC on board, the whole CNW cab signal thing is pretty much moot.

We also stressed keeping the correct power on the coal trains (pre-UP merger it was almost all C40-8's and post UP merger it was all C44AC or better AC's).  Funny thing is if I add an SD40-2 to a consist of AC's, it actually has less pulling power than if you just have the AC's alone (due to the potential for the SD40 motors to overheat at low speeds).

The Blue fleet were all the ex-MP, ex-MKT, ex-SP non-cab signal equipped engine that couldn't operate on the UP or CNW as leaders.  The only way you'd see them on the Geneva Sub was as a trailing unit.  By now most of them have been melted down

The oddest CNW engine was a single GP7 that was equipped so the batteries could be used to run the traction motors so it could switch inside a specific industry building.  After the UP merger it was inadvertently moved from that yard and there was a reasonably large brouhaha until it was moved back. 

N scale layout as good as HO?

The real question should be "is the HO layout as good as N scale" or "does the HO layout operate as well as an N scale layout?"  If you are talking about smooth running locomotives, consistently operating couplers and lack of derailments, the two scales are equal.  This is due to manufactures in all scales making great strides in producing top quality models.

But let's look at prototypical operations.  N scale has a distinct advantage over HO scale since the need to compress the prototype to fit a given space is much less crucial.  In any given space, you can create a prototypical operational scheme in N scale much more successfully than you can in HO.  My layout, the Union Pacific Railroad Geneva Subdivision (genevasub.blogsport.com), is a great example of this point.  While it has its flaws, I do not know of an HO scale home layout that captures class 1, double track, mainline operations as well as the Geneva Sub.  

When those in HO scale say that an N scale layout is as good as HO, they are misinformed about N scale and do not understand the differences in the scales.  Not to mention that they come off as condescending and aloof.

Level of detail is another topic. Due to its larger size, HO scale models need to have more details in order to look as detailed as an N scale locomotive.  Model for model, HO scale models are more detailed than N scale locomotives.  I believe that why they are more expensive.  N scale makes up for that due to needing more models for a given space.  So, saying that a N scale model is as detailed as an HO model is legitimate, since HO model generally have more details than N scale.  I think sound is also an area where HO is also intrinsically better than N scale.

Daryl

Models the UP Geneva Sub quite well

Aside from several iconic scenic features like the Rochelle diamond and the Clinton swing bridge, Daryl's layout also captures the iconic operating feature of the Geneva Sub: each trip I've taken has been one signal, stop, Approach Medium, two signals, stop, just like the real UP!  I once got a green board and had no idea what to do.....

Too much traffic.  A problem all railroads should wish for.

See ya Saturday, Daryl!  I'm gonna hide in Proviso....

Scott Chatfield

(In my experience N-scale costs about 60% of what HO does, and N-scalers buy 3 times as much to make up for it....)

Really cool

Really cool model railroad. I say model because it seems a few folks here forget we are all playing with toys....

This is such a great example of what you can do in N scale. 

 I do not know of an HO scale

Daryl,

I'm getting ready to build a new layout in HO that will have a double track main. I'm curious to know what features you think most HO layouts lack in this regard? That would be of great help in evaluating my own plans.

Thanks in advance for your feedback! 

Length and width

I'm interested to see what Daryl says too.  But in my adventures in N and HO it seems to me that the two things HO misses most is length and width.  Length is addressable if you have a big enough space, but width is a tougher nut to crack.  Look at Daryl's Proviso yard.  Guess from his sort of trackplan here  http://genevasub.blogspot.com/2019/07/track-plan-sort-of.html the benchwork has to be at least 30" deep through there.  You'd need 55" deep benchwork to get the same scene in HO, and most people don't have arms that long.  That problem is even worse in O scale of course.  I've seen one or two wide yards in HO, but they manage it by having aisles on both sides.

Proviso yard

It would be a lot easier to model Proviso Yard ca. mid 2019.  

Its shut down and no longer used as a hump yard.  All you need is enough space for a couple main tracks.

Length of the train

A lot of the length of the train can be managed by how much can be seen.  Its very rare to be able to seen an entire real train all at once.  On a model railroad, if the train length exceeds the visible space, then the train appears longer because you effectively can't see the end of it.  I as an observer can't tell if the train is 20 cars long or 100 cars long because I can't see the end.  If you are modeling a very flat, wide open space (Midwest) then that becomes more difficult.  If you are modeling a more urban, mountainous or hilly area or have more curves, it becomes easier.

Then it boils down to a perception thing.  If you can visible see 12 ft of train at any given time, that means you are going to see about 12-24 HO cars or 20-40 N scale cars.  Either way it will be 12 ft of train.  The next part is whether you see the rear of the train immediately after the engines leave your field of vision.  If you see engines, cars, cars, cars, then rear of train, the train will seem longer.  If you views are set up where you can see engines ,but not the rear, then for a while just cars and not either end of the train, the train will seem longer.

The last factor is speed.  The slower the speed the longer the train seems because its in your view for a longer time.  Higher speeds make the layout seem smaller.  Lower speeds make the layout seem larger.

Impressive

Impressive to see a 36" radius curve in action in N scale. Really improves the realism. This is a fun railroad to look at. The power sitting around the shop at Proviso brings back memories.

Interesting points on the left hand running. Yes, most of this territory still runs left handed. Left hand operations initially started due to location of passenger depots when the CNW added additional main tracks. The depots were primarily on the north side and it was desirable to keep them on the inbound Chicago side of the operation.

 When the CNW got 4R money to upgrade their Chicago to Council Bluffs main. The start of heavy loaded coal trains were a concern at that time and operated on the upgraded main. That was true when UP reinstalled the second main on the west end of the now merged CNW property. The track anticipated for loaded coal operation got concrete ties and thus left hand running lasted a little longer. The line is now CTC all the way from Council Bluffs to the Chicago commuter zone, and operation of freight trains is more flexible due to the excellent track upgrades since the UP merger. The photo shows a EB UP train on the former westbound track (now CTC) at Denison, IA. The right track (former eastbound track) has concrete ties and is favoured for eastbound coal trains which is generally the loaded direction.

Global 3 is an interesting outlier in the left hand operation. It's on the south (westbound) side of the main track and eastbound trains have to cross over to access. While the ramp is now mothballed for customer gate traffic, the yard is still utilized for block swapping and low intensity classification. Dispatchers don't like having to cross trains over on the busy line to work G3. The photos of the G3 gate are interesting. The sheds are scanning portals which a truck drives through. The intermodal unit is electronically scanned for damage and the unit information is presented to the driver at a console at the canopy area. The driver enters information to allow him to access the facility and register the intermodal unit being handled. If no information matches the unit entered by the driver, he may have to deal with a gate clerk. Otherwise it's all automated. There's a portal for ingate and another for outgate. State of the art when installed and generally the standard for large scale intermodal facilities now.

Dave Husman is correct on the train symbols. Never ran a MPRLA, but even in CNW times up to 3 North Platte trains would operate westbound. Trains have operated to Houston, Pine Bluff, Alton & Southern, Des Moines, Council Bluffs, Boone, Clinton, St Paul, Valley Park (MN), Butler & Altoona (WI) and other midwest locations since merger. CNW also originated trains for Conrail and GTW back in the day and continued to operate trains to the NS.

All fun to see on the model.

Bob

Omaha

Thanks for the info and pic

   Thank you for the valuable and interesting information.  Love the picture too.  I remember when they installed the concrete ties on track 1 through Rochelle.  I watched in awe as this train full of complex machinery lifted the rails, pulled the wood ties, installed the concrete ties, put the rail back down and reformed the ballast. At the time I remember thinking, "I am not pulling up my track and reinstalling with concrete ties."  So, I am kind of dating my layout to before the concrete installation.  Am I right in thinking that, at that time, the line was still left hand running?

I've been using MPRLA and MPRDA since 2008.  I remember at the time seeing the trains on documentation thrown out by engineers.  However, I'm beginning to think that my memory is a bit faulty.  In any case, it looks like I need to use some other names for my four manifest trains between proviso and points west.  Besides MPRNP, what would be some common manifest trains that would run on the Geneva Sub in 2008?  It would also be very helpful to know common auto rack trains, double stack trains, coal trains and crude oil trains.

Thanks!

Daryl

Nice layout. Almost makes me want to revert back to modern era.

I do miss Nscale. It is much easier to represent the open space between towns.

Trains

You have suggestions for the manifest trains and what traffic on them would look like.

The returns would be the MNPPR, MCBNP, MDMPR, MKCPR.

On July 6, 2008 the MNPPR had 75 covered hoppers, 31 flatcars, 26 reefers, 24 boxcars, 31 bilevels, 16 tank cars, 20 gons and 3 hopper cars.

There were the premium manifest : QNPPR

There were also the run through manifest that didn't yard or switch at Proviso:

MELNP (Elkhart, IN to N  Platte) , QNPSKP (N Platte to Selkirk  perishable, although it was mostly manifest)

Coal trains :

CATIM9/CBTIM9 with UP/CTRN hoppers and gons.

CNAWK, CBMWI, with CWEX rotary gons

CBTMR9 with UCEX hoppers

CBTNT with CAEG gons

CEYWD9 with UP hoppers

CJRPL with MWGX gons

Those oar the loads, the empties would be the origin destination codes reversed (CNAWK> CWKNA)

Auto trains were the AGBMI (WWD, mostly bi's),  APDWG (EWD 50-50 bi & tri)

Stack trains : 

KLAG1/KG1LA  (Global 1 to LA)

KG1LT/KLTG1 (Global 1 to Lathrop)

ITAAH5 (EWD) (from Tacoma)

IG2TA (WWD) (Global 2 to Tacoma)

ZCSSC (piggyback Canal St to Salt Lake City)

All of these symbols operated in the first week of July 2008.

Left Hand Running

The line is primarily still left hand running. The installation of CTC, opening of Global 3, and extension of the commuter district out to Elburn (station and layover yard opened 2006) all impact the amount of traffic that operates left hand. The commuter operations are certainly left hand running, and might be an interesting conflict to introduce to your already interesting layout.

Whatever you do, it's your layout so have fun!

Bob

Trains...

Holy cow, that's some great info from Dave!  

I'd love to have that kind of stuff for my area. 

Randy 

Notes

I accidently kept some notes from 2008.  Serendipity that that happened to just the year in which he was interested.  Another year, another place, maybe nada.

Huge Thanks

Dave..... THANKS!!!!!

Turns out we have an ops session tomorrow. I've been holding out printing documentation for the session.  With your help, tomorrow's ops session will now be just a bit more prototypical!

Daryl