Is that N scale?

Haven't A Clue...

...whether that's a pic of the real deal or what.

Haven't studied it too closely, but I think I see what you're seeing now: That thick band on the outer face of the wheel. Looks a bit on the heavy side, eh?

Andre

Here is the Lionel

Here is the Lionel Wheelset.

Now compare to the Arrowhead Wheel set:

Lionels looks pretty crude in comparison.

Already have two bone reliable wheel suppliers

Intermountain.  

Tangent 

I do not purchase the semi-scale wheelsets, I stick with the wide tread.  Like the reliability, since they are more forgiving of track defects. 

Why waste your time and money on wheels from a company with a very questionable quality record when great alternatives are available?

Regards,

Jerry

I have used Intermountain for replacement wheels

Agreed.  For rolling stock which need replacement wheels, I have used Intermountain so far.

I posted the Arrowhead vs. Lionel for contrast.

Here is an Intermountain wheelset; not as fine as Arrowhead but pretty good.

Lionel bought Model Power

Lionel bought Model Power trains a while ago and more than likely bought the molds as well. They had released the HO scale version of the Polar Express a couple years ago. This more than likely will give them the boost into the HO scale market they want. I did see the Polar Express train back in February at the Toy Fair in NYC and it looked okay. Not what I would put on my layout, but parents would buy it to put around the tree for the holidays. 

Tread profile

From those photos it almost looks like the Lionel wheel has a flat tread instead of a tapered tread?  And it looks like almost a right angle between the tread and the flange face.  I’d assume that means it won’t track quite as nicely as a more prototypical wheel.

Yup...

Some might say "no way Jose' ", and others may find the lower price for metal wheels attractive.

I thought I'd pitch it out there for any/all to look over and decide for themselves.

IF the product was on par with other brands, to me it could be a viable option. However, (to paraphrase a Biblical passage) "there is safety in a multitude of counselors", thus the collective experience of this forum can be tapped into.

As for me, I have my preferences and will stick with them.

All fer now!

Andre

Lionel has been in HO for a

Lionel has been in HO for a long time.  My first train set, HO, bought by my parents about 55+ years ago was a Lionel.

Ironically Lionel made an HO car that is a great stand in for a Reading quad hopper.

Here's an O scale model of the prototype:

And a picture of a similar LV car:

No...

Aside from some brief appearances, Lionel has been absent HO for some time. (Their attempt back in the late 1950s/1960s of which you mention, failed.)

What I'm referring to is the "new" Lionel HO offerings. Over the past several years they've re-entered the market. This time, though, with the purchase of certain Mantua and Model Power assets, it appears they want to be more involved, hence their offering of wheel sets, Kadee-type couplers, etc.

Simply put: The 3-rail market is contracting rapidly as its enthusiasts continue to age-out. Both Lionel and MTH are trying to make market share inroads into HO scale for survival's sake. MTH has gone so far as to say there will likely be no more new tooling for 3-rail. Both companies have much to learn about the HO market, and their ability, or inability, to learn the HO market may determine their survival. It is not a good time to be a 3-rail manufacturer.

Andre

"Both companies have much to

  They could always enter the S market and have a clear road ahead. S folks are waiting with money to spend :> ) 

    I haven't kept up with HO wheelset prices so can't comment on the value but those Lionel wheels look like they are modeling turnable wheels with their thicker rim( 2 wear,3 wear,etc.) ........DaveB 

50% error

I can understand the 3 rail market shrinking.  Most of us put up with a lot of errors on our models.  But overlooking a 50% error in the number of rails seems like a bit much.

They come & go

Actually have been in HO at least three times.  

The issue is are they actually going to produce these products.  The price difference for 100 wheels is about $6.50 between these and the IM wheels.  That is only a quarter a car.  Not much for the uncertainties and visual differences that Jim has pointed out.

I use to buy several hundred of these wheels each year.  I ended up with IM because they were the most consistent and available.  Others that looked similar had all kinds of issues, particularly bent axles.  I only remember one or two quality issues with an IM pack.  Wheel had come off the axle some how.  

I have stopped doing this activity now.  Before I did, I found that the market would not pay for the metal wheels.  It may be because they are expected, because new cars have them already.  Included in the hefty car costs.  

Car weight and the right axle/truck combination are more important than the metal wheels.  So it is a personal preference versus adding $3+ per car for the metal wheels. Not everyone wants to spend their dollars that way.

When ever a Lionel tries to bring its business model to HO, they seem to be disappointed.  They are actually more like Bachmann, Life Like and a few others of old.  They produce a minimum product that does function.  The problem is that is has issues and does not have a differentating reason to make a significant penetration to the existing market.  They try a couple of years and then drop the effort.  

Surprising they would be trying again in 2019. There are a lot of highly thought of quality product makers in the HO field.  Not sure where their nitch is. 

Dave Hussman

I cleaned up the photo of the LV 4-bay hopper for you.    

Jim   

AGAIN?

I like that Reading quad hopper!

Lionel tried HO in the late 1950s, mid to late 1970s and now again. I was not impressed with any of the eras. The wheels look clunky to me. I stick with Kadee for my wheels and couplers. Plastic couplers break and have other issues for me and I've never had any defective KD products over 50+ years of using them so don't see any need to change or try another brand.

My 2¢

oldline1

Lionel may have had a failure

Lionel may have had a failure in sales in the HO market back in the 1960s but everything they made worked and ran on the track for as long as I had it. They made a pacific steam engine, a milk car that unloaded milk cans, a log car that dumped logs, a side dump coal car that dumped coal, and a caboose that lit up and was I thought nicely detailed for the time. They may have made some other cars as well and all the cars I had from that time period ran very well. Track was brass code 100 Atlas brand, power pack was MRC in a gold colored case.

Of more interest to me than pictures of the wheel set is what trucks do they fit? Also comparing the Arrow head wheel set has me wondering if the axle might not be loose in accurail sideframes? As to the guys that choose not to run metal wheels have at it I put metal wheels on all of my freight cars when they get built. They are worth it to me, I also only use kadee metal couplers and will not run other knock offs.

I for one am glad to see another manufacturer trying to move into HO scale. They might not make anything I want but I am glad they are here.

Lionel bought Model Power

Some of the HO equipment tooling they got via Model Power dates back to Marx's foray into HO scale in the 1960s.

The boxcar and the flat car with water tanks in the current Lionel HO listings are two examples of old Marx tooling in that line.

if they go for detail and

if they go for detail and quality, unlike all there toy train looks for three rail. then might make a go of it.

maybe buy up nwsl. and keep building quality detail at correct scale items then they can make some money.

To me...

...it will be interesting to watch and see how Lionel fares in the HO world. They've got their work cut out for them. (See all of the above!)

One thing that they must learn (if they're smart enough) is that there is VERY LITTLE "brand loyalty" in HO such as exists in 3-rail. (No "Purple vs Orange" wars.) In fact, in HO, the Lionel brand name is not an advantage, for the name already carries a stigma within HO from decades past. So, if they want the dollars of the "serious" modeler in HO, they'll have to earn the business with quality product. Whether they can do that (or intend* to) remains to be seen.

* Intent: Could be that Lionel would be happy to make profits appealing to the "casual HO modeler".

"Casual HO modeler": As in a modeler that isn't as fixated on "prototype fidelity" as what I term a "serious HO modeler".

Andre

old molds

The 1950s Lionel molds I think went to Bachmann.

MTH bought SHS.  So they are in the "S" market.  But they haven't done much with it.  The current Lionel owns American Flyer and has done some modern stuff.  Both do NOT understand the scale market.  Scale wheels are an afterthought and they do not offer any locomotives without their proprietary electronics.  As the toy collector market is shrinking the old dogs needs to learn some new tricks.

Spot On...

...TC.

You've got a pretty good handle on Lionel/MTH and their toy train market vs the scale train market. The two are totally different animals. (MTH has been a huge disappointing in S scale.)

The old dogs better learn some new tricks PRONTO, for their 3-rail market is in fast decline. How low* it will go is anyone's guess, including Lionel's and MTH's.

( * That is, after the current Boomers age-out that are into 3-rail... who will be left?)

Andre

From my limited perspective on both Lionel and American Flyer

And actually on tinplate in general (including what I've seen about Williams and MTH), distribution is very limited. There is one local hobby shop that will order new O/S items, they buy and resell used Lionel, American Flyer (and I assume whatever else flows through their doorway, and also buy and resell used HO and N items.   They are a long-established business, and I generally stop in once every couple of months on a Saturday on a hunt for some scratchbuilding supplies or other odds and ends.  They stay in business, but their web store is pretty weak, and there rarely are more than one or two other people in the shop when I'm there.  I hope they are doing more mail-order than I'm aware of.

Other than that, there is one other major store about 25 miles away, which sells a ton of new stuff (and only new stuff).  Everything else is only available for viewing/browsing/purchasing at train shows.  There is still a lot of used 50s-70s Lionel and 50s-60s AF at prices where you could piece together a starting layout for roughly what you would spend for  a higher-tier HO or N set.  That said, it requires quite a bit of cleaning and refurbishing to make that have the "box appeal" of the new HO or N sets, and I see many more people buying the HO and N sets than going after the 50s-60s stuff.  And the 70s Lionel is really pretty cheesy compared to the earlier stuff, and is generally in worse shape than the earlier stuff as well.  The prices of the newer O/S stuff is pretty breathtaking compared to general and custom painted bluebox Athearn, which is still fairly available and even compared to current Athearn and Kato products' prices.

My point is that the majority of newcomers who might be looking for that first trainset for their kids are seeing that beaten-up Lionel and AF stuff, and aren't going into 3-rail or American Flyer. When they see the name  "Lionel" on an HO box, they are likely to remember those boxes of used stuff and comparing it to the Bachman, Walthers, and Kato boxed sets.  It's going to be an uphill climb to overcome that perception of the Lionel brand.  On price in HO, they are going to competing with Athearn, Atlas, Kato, and Walthers - all of whom are available in quantity at those same train shows and more hobby stores.

Janet N.

Lionel

  Is good at it's core of making high quality toy trains.  My Lionel Thomas the Tank train set has survived 16 years and counting of various grandkids with no maintenance or repair.  I wish Lionel would seriously get into the S scale market with some new products, there's lots of prospective new S modelers going with HO because they can't find enough stuff to buy........DaveB 

Lionel Ho in 2019 Catalog Published

Hi,

Have fun!