" Is this just the nature of

  If you have powered frogs and clean track stalling should not be happening. Perhaps the engine looses it's wheel to motor contact some way. Check the individual wheel wiper feed wires to make sure some have not come unsoldered, I've seen it happen at times.  A keep alive capacitor can certainly make operations painless by working over any small current interruptions. I've found the current keeper can run my S scale engine a full engine length pulling a long train with sound so plenty of time to get over a dead frog or dirty spot on the rails....DaveB

Athearn Genesis GPs

Are notorious for poor pickup.  Try blowing a small amount of powdered graphitein the axle-to-bearing contact area and in the bearing-to-sideframe area. That’s helped a lot on most of my Genesis Geeps.  If it doesn’t help, try soldering the wires running from the metal truck side frame pickups to the decoder board.

Sounds Familiar

Check for bad wiring connections at the trucks and the PC board where the decoder plugs in.  Athearn does not use solder on the wires, and the connections tend to vibrate loose.  Sometimes they are not properly stripped at the ends, which also contributes to poor continuity.  Solder everything and the problem should stop.

Solved, I think

Thanks for those that responded.  I pulled out an old Atlas/Kato RS1 that was always a good runner although it is 20 years old.  It traversed the layout twice at notch 1 on the PT and did not skip once.  So it apparently has to do with the pick ups in the Athearn unit and I could clean the track all day and still have issues.  Put my mind at rest regarding quality of my track laying/wiring.

Alcohol is counterproductive

You didn't say which type of alcohol, but experiments have shown that cleaning nickel silver track and wheels with alcohol, especially isopropyl alcohol, actually encourages more oxidation.  Something about it being a polar solvent.  (I must have slept through that part of organic chemistry...)   Non-polar solvents like mineral spirits (highly refined kerosene) are much more effective choices.

Then there is the engine.  You don't say which Athearn GP or whether it has a factory-installed decoder, but the reliability of the truck pickups needs to be looked at.  First check each truck by picking up the other truck off the rails slightly.  If the sound dies you have a problem with that truck.  If the wheels are clean check the bearings.  If it's an inside-bearing truck make sure there is no paint in the bearing slots, a common problem with Athearn trucks when they paint the bearing plate black.  If it's an outside-bearing truck (most of the Genesis models), check to make sure no foreign matter is wrapped around the axle ends.

Then there's the question of how does power get from the truck to the decoder?  If all wires, check the connections.  If the truck bolsters are part of the circuit (older Athearns) make sure they make good contact with the frame and don't have rust on them.  I use a little De-Ox-It atop the the bolster to improve current flow.  Most people will tell you to hard wire both sides of the truck to any sound decoder and I agree, but you have to do that carefully to keep from binding or even melting the truck.

Scott Chatfield

Belt and suspenders

Some locomotives really benefit from belt and suspenders and the Genesis Athearn GP9 is one of them. Pickup is spotty and I recommend a “belt and suspenders” approach to get flawless running from them.

By this I mean don’t just do one thing to upgrade the power pickup but two things so that just like a belt and suspenders ... if one thing fails the other will save you. I call this the Chester Principle, named in honor of Chester Goode on the old Gunsmoke TV series — he was ultra cautious and is known for always wearing a belt AND suspenders.

Anyhow, I did this:

1. Added wipers to all the wheels to provide a second path for the power to get from the wheels to the decoder.
2. Replaced the standard motherboard with a TCS Genesis Keep Alive motherboard and a LokSound Select decoder.

So with this dual safety net approach, my Genesis GP9 now runs like a champ. I’ve taken it to shows and run it on our display layout and it just keeps right on running without even one hiccup all weekend. It’s a great loco to use for demoing the ProtoThrottle because it is so dependable.

What is your preferred

Method for adding wipers to Genesis GP9

I used the method shown on this thread:

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/improving-electrical-pickup-12212280

ALSO MARCH 2019 RUNNING EXTRA
We worked with Nelson to take the gist of what he said in this thread and elaborated on it more fully in this March Running Extra article:

The end result looks like this:

Let me note there's already some wires running from the trucks to the motherboard, I kept those and simply added more wires for these wipers to give a second totally redundant electrical path from the trucks to the TCS motherboard.

That plus the new TCS keep alive motherboard and you have a loco that's almost impossible to stall. It went from the least reliable loco in my fleet to the most reliable with these two improvements.

Tweaking the Geep

Joe-

Thank you for your input.  One would think for $230 you would not have to add better contacts for reliable operation.  But it does have the correct air horns.  Pardon my sarcasm .

Axle tip conductivity

Axle tip conductivity can be a bug-a-boo unless it's done right. Kato does it but they use hard phosphor bronze plates with drilled holes having minimal tolerance for the axle tips. As a result, power pickup on Katos is almost never an issue.

Life-like, on the other hand in their SD9s, uses soft copper (it's cheaper) and they *stamp* the axle holes in a plate that has an X splay in the metal where the axle tips go. That makes for some ragged holes that wear quickly. As the SD9s break in, you can have none of the six axles making contact and the loco stalling becomes routine and very aggravating. A similar fix is needed for those locos.

Athearn also uses copper plates, but they drill the holes for the axles instead of stamping them (yay). It appears, however, they drill the holes with a little more tolerance than Kato does (just in case, to make sure the wheelsets are free rolling I suspect) but that compromises the power pickup reliability making it intermittent at times.

The wipers dramatically improve power pickup, and adding stay alive on top of it pretty much ensures you get a loco that becomes extremely sure-footed and very difficult to stall. Adding the wipers goes pretty quick and it makes a world of difference.

Joe's method works!

The tests that Joe ran and published in the May 2019 issue of MRH Magazine should become the holy grail of track cleaning techniques.

I did the cleaning with the recommended solvent (CRC with Protectant) and then used the graphite stick.  Haven't had a power pickup issue of any kind since.  Before that, I could never keep them totally clean and working.  Yes, I still get black gunk on the rails (tested with a rag), but apparently it's a good "black gunk".

I'm not suggesting this is a solution to the pickup problems of the Genesis GP9, it's just part of the total equation to get smooth and dependable performance overall.

Deane

Athearn Power Pick-up Problem Solved

I have had a similar problem with the old "Blue Box" locomotives, particularly the Alco RS-3.  Athearn recently advised me that part of the problem is too much black coating on the metal plates in which the axle bearings ride.  The coating inhibits the flow of electricity and causes the halting operation.  They suggested that a 300 grit sanding stick could be used to remove the coating from the notch in which the bearing sits.  

I have a more fool-proof solution.  Solder very flexible wire to the bottom of the bearing itself.  Lead this wire up inside the bearing plate to the topside of the truck and wire directly to the decoder.  Problem solved.  It's also quite easy to do, simply pop the axle out of the truck and remove the bearing.  It is necessary to clean the bearing block with solvent to remove any oil prior to proceeding.  Position the bearing in a well-secured pair of soldering tweezers.

I used a small amount of non-acid liquid flux on both the bearing and the wire and it soldered quite easily.

I also installed Kadee insulation washers - note the lines on the photograph - a gray (.010) and a red (.015) on either side of the bearing to keep it centered on the carrier.

Works just fine now!

Another pick up solution that works

Here is a link to my blog where I explain how I solved the intermittent power issue. The diesel in the first two videos is the same loco but several years apart. The final video is of another diesel that had the same issues.

Try it, it is relatively easy to do and it works.

http://bylong.blogspot.com/2017/02/i-have-theory.html

The diesels in question are New South Wales Government Railways 44 Class Alco 251s. New South Wales is in Australia.

Regards,

Ray Pilgrim

http://bylong.blogspot.com/

Bottom of bearing for me too

Matt,

I had been contemplating exactly what you have done thanks for being my test subject - to me seems a loot simper than some of the other methods - not saying better or more reliable but simpler.

I have a P2K Geep that has just had a decoder returned from QSI (yes they still exist) that was repaired for free and its nearing 10years old - excellent service/support - that suffers from the stutters that I will do this to as my first test subject.

Genesis and the new Proto Throttle

I agree with everyone that Genesis locos (most) have power truck problems, My F7s set of 4 SF all had problems out of the box so I rewired each one and the problems are gone now.

Joe are you going to do a review on that new Proto Throttle soon? My brother got to play with it at the show in Nebraska last week

Chris, Mueller Brothers RR

Protothrottle "review" ... already did in Aug 2018

Protothrottle "review" ... already did in Aug 2018, almost a year ago. We didn't write it, but we published it!

mrhmag.com/magazine/mrh2018-08/operate-like-pro

Fixing stalling locos

It doesn't matter how clean the wheels, or the track, or adding wipers.  The only real solution is to add a Keep Alive to the decoder.  I know all you purists don't like to hear this, but when you get tired of tearing your loco apart time after time, and pulling your hair out because you can't seem to keep the track clean, if you can finally bring yourself to install a Keep Alive you'll kick yourself for not doing it sooner.  EVERY LOCO on my layout has a Keep Alive and that problem is behind me.  No matter how slow I set the loco, it will creep, and continue to creep and it will not stop, whether dirty track or dead frogs, the loco is like the Everyready Bunny, it just keeps going, and going, and going.

I can't figure out why people are against this simple and 100% effective solution.

Paul Coats

What Design is Best?

I wonder what design of power pickups is best? Seems that the axle tips has problems as does the bronze bearings as per the older Athearns. I don't really like the wipers rubbing against the back of the wheels as those eventually pick up dirt and hair. So what does work best? Maybe every design has its own problems and there is no one best design. I know that I have locomotives that I would expect to be problematic; short wheelbase, pickups rubbing on the back of the wheels, but they seem to run fine and others that I would think would be good; due to more wheels and heavier overall, aren't so good!

Stalling Engines

The wiper and decoder fix suggested by Joe and others is something you must do to several earlier Athearn, Lifelike, Bachman, Bowser and Intermountain engines. All came from one or two makers in China so seem to have the same problems.

After running awhile, the axle ends and pickup plate journals build up a black goop that prevents good pickup and data packet transfer to the decoder. While its messy, get a spray electronic contact cleaner that does not harm plastic and spray clean these journals from the bottom while holding the engine upright. Do this over a trash can. DO NOT BREATH the fumes. Use a can of spray air to blow out the journals and dry them. Re-lube the journals with Never Stall from Daylight sales. This is a conductive, very fine machine oil.

Make sure all wheels are in gauge. Out of gauge wheels may create a momentary short at the points and frogs of turnouts. Early engines tend to loose their gauge when the plastic gear axle cracks and the wheel axle stud no longer fits snugly in the gear axle.

Solder all wire connections from the the trucks to the decoder.

NEVER use ANY alcohol on track or wheels. It promotes arcing as stated in an earlier reply. Arcing creates pitting of wheels and track and carbon from the burned metal. This buildup insulates the wheels. Use white mineral spirits ( synthetic turpentine). This is getting hard to find in some states as its being banned.

NEVER use a Brightboy on DCC equipped track. It gouges the rails, which in turn creates more arcing and carbon deposits on wheels. Use Woodland Scenics track cleaning pads. They are designed for DCC and much finer.

Bottom of bearing comment

Simon,

Most important are: (1) get the bottom of the bearing surface clean and oil-free and (2) use a very flexible wire.

I know this will work well for you and solves the track pickup problem.

Matt

Bullet Proof

Jack--One more thing, sort of like putting a vest on with the belt and suspenders. Sorry I can't attribute this to a source, but I am certain I read the article which was complete with diagrams. It may have been here in MRH, either an article or a post.

The Athearn/Genesis 2 axle drive design is supposed to bear all the loco weight through the copper bearing plates setting on the axle ends. The axle is supposed to pass through an inverted U shaped opening in the side of the gearbox without interference. Clearance around the axle is intended to be sufficient to prevent contact between the axle and gearbox. Unfortunately, some gearboxes were manufactured such that the axle at times, as the locomotive moved along, would contact the gearbox at the top of the inverted U. When this happens, some weight is being borne at that axle-gearbox contact point, relieving the load at the copper plate-axle end, resulting in an  open in the current path, causing the engine to hesitate or the sound to be dropped. Not all gearboxes have this affliction. My understanding is that Athearn fixed this after learning of the problem, but there are many engines out there affected.

The fix is simple. Turn the engine over and secure it in a foam cradle or similar to prevent damage. Remove the bottom cover from the gearbox and remove the sideframes. Remove the wheel/axle/gear assemblies. This gives access to the U shaped slot. Scrap with a knife or file the curved part of the U until you think enough material has been removed. Probably only a few thousandths, maybe .020, is sufficient, but a little overkill here won't hurt. Obviously, it is not desirable to have plastic chips running loose in the gearbox, so cleanup will be important. With the sideframes off, this a good time to solder on wipers as discussed earlier.

I am also one who believes that every engine should have a keep alive device. Your GP doesn't have a lot of room, but it is possible. I have a TCS KA4 in my Ath/Gen GP7. The task is even easier now since TCS redesigned the KA1 and KA2 into much smaller packages.

Joe's solution of swapping out the decoder is interesting, but wouldn't be my choice. You don't say whether you have the older Tsunami or the newer Tsunami2. Information on adding a keep alive with the older Tsu is here:

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm

For the Tsunami2 (and Econami), happily an attaching plug has been made available on the board. To connect a TCS KeepAlive to a Soundtraxx decoder, here is a mating plug available at DigiKey. It is called a harness so there are two plugs on each harness: A02SR02SR30K152A. That is the p/n for a 6 inch harness. These were out of stock recently (model railroaders!) so this p/n is for a 12 inch harness with the same plugs: A02SR02SR30K305B.

Have fun!

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL

spotty electrical pickup

While hesitant to endorse a product on this forum, I will mention that I have had great results from applying a product called "Never Stall" to the wipers and contact surfaces of many locos including Genesis models! John Colley, Sonoma, CA

Hi John

Do you need to disassemble the loco to apply "never stall"? This would be a Genesis MP15.

I have Caig Deoxit D5 and a fresh spray can of EML cleaner and lubricant from my days of working on pro audio equipment but don't know if spraying one of those into loco trucks is a good idea.....can you tell that I hate taking small delicate things apart?

Poor contact

I purchased two Genesis GPs at the same time, one ran fantastic, the other stopped and started all over the place. I contacted Athearn and sent it back to them and the repaired engine works great. Not sure what they fixed but it runs fantastic now.

Cheers

John