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0-4-4T Switcher, Identify Small Steam Engine? Locos and rolling stock
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Prolific poster 8,770 posts railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

Several years ago I acquired this small steam engine from an estate sale here in FL. What I noticed about it right away was all the nice detail that had been added to it. The gentleman had put some very nice workmanship into it.

It doesn't run at the moment, but I'll figure that out once I get my layout up and running. It's quite a heavy little loco, so its tractive capability should be quite good.

It has no markings as to its origin, so I was wondering if someone might recognize what it started out life as??

PHOTOs to begin on second posting...

 

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
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railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

Photos of 0-4-4T

F4317(1).JPG 

F4318(1).JPG 

F4319(1).JPG 

 

ps600(1).jpg 

 

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Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 1
laming Super User 3,957 posts
laming

Can't Help...

...on the I.D. of the loco... but it looks to have some pretty hefty flanges on it.

What code rail are you using?

Andre
Kansas City & Gulf: Ozark Subdivision, Autumn of 1964
 
The "Mainline To The Gulf!"
Reply 0
Volker Frequent poster 981 posts
Volker

I think it could have started

I think it could have started as an old Mantua 0-4-0T:

I found it on hoseeker.net first in the 1953 Mantua catalog with Stephenson valve gear named Booster. In the 1959 catalog it is shown with Stephenson valve gear again together with fitting valve gear update kits.
https://hoseeker.net/mantuainformation/mantuacatalog1959pg04.jpg
/> Regards, Volker
Reply 1
Geoff Bunza geoffb MRH Author and Moderator 2,498 posts
Geoff Bunza geoffb

@Brian Interesting customized Mantua 0-4-0T

Hi Brian,

Your 0-4-0T started life as a Mantua 0-4-0T tank switcher. Zamac boiler and almost every thing else, but not the valve gear and the 4 wheel trailing truck. Plus the intricate break gear is of such a quality, that I have never seen it applied to any Mantua engine! The screw pattern, nylon main driver gear, boiler lugs at the rear, sand pipe casts into the boiler top, headlight mount with grain of wheat bulb, all say Mantua.
 
But the really interesting part is the trailing truck -- which was actually meant to  be the leading truck with a special Kemtron ( http://www.tcawestern.org/kemtron.htm ) mod kit that was sometimes applied to small switchers to make them a "cab forward" version with the 4 wheel truck in the lead! Like this pic from the web site I listed:
emtron33.jpg 
More from the web:
-forward.jpg   -forward.jpg 
Have fun! 
Best regards,
Geoff Bunza

Geoff Bunza's Blog Index: https://mrhmag.com/blog/geoff-bunza
More Scale Model Animation videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/DrGeoffB
Home page: http://www.scalemodelanimation.com
Reply 1
Volker Frequent poster 981 posts
Volker

Thanks for the history of the

Thanks for the history of the 4-wheel trailing truck.

To avoid a misunderstanding the #38 you show started life as a Varney Little Joe 0-4-0T, I think.

The valve gear on the OP's Mantua was upgrade kit #754 that Mantua offered. See my post above.
Regards, Volker
Reply 0
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

Impressive transformation !

I found this one over here...
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/iconic-railroad-models-12200775
-750x563.jpg 

 

That one of mine is QUITE a transformation !!

 

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 1
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

Can Motor, DCC

I wonder if I can make it a really fine, slow running DCC loco?

That brake gear might have to have some creative insulation tweaks made to it??

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 0
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

Advice on restoring old

Advice on restoring old Mantua steam engine

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/209466.aspx

 

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 0
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

Couple of suggestion from another forum

Quote:

From a historical standpoint, there were some more beefy switchers in Vermont that were used to haul around granite, talc and presumably marble at the mines. However, in doing some brief research, the closest I came was Hercules, the 0-6-2T that was owned by Rock of Ages. It's actually still there, but no longer runs.

As for a motor replacement and DCC conversion, your best bet is to replace the motor and gearing. I've tried a few different minimum changes items to convert mine to DCC and there's always something connected to metal that prevents it from working. The NWSL catalog and website are still working for now. That's your best bet to identify what you'd need.

 

Quote:

 B, I feel it ain't worth it, adding a decoder and re-motoring it which could force it to need new gearing, too. Will you want sound ? Where would you mount the speaker ? For the $ and time it will take, you could find a state of the art one (Bachmann ?) DCC/no sound, but with great running and pickup quality, shallower flanges, smooth action, with working couplers and maybe even a backup light, for $50-ish, on line. You could then park this one in/near the engine house as 'being repaired' and fuggeddaboudit !!
If you do stay with this one I think a 2 spoke-wheeled pony truck would be more proto than the one on it.

 

 

I would not look for sound in this little guy,...only reasonable DCC decoder that could control a non-cogging, perhaps skewed armature 'can' motor. Aren't these available pretty cheap?

Wouldn't the decent motor, under decoder control,  perform slow enough speed to not require re-gearing?

 

 

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 0
Benny MRH Author 7,125 posts
Benny

...

The really unfortunate part here is that you're about ten years late since Yardbird Trains (and Allied before Yardbird) offered their can motor repower kits.  It can be done and you may find one of these kits on the market, they included the mount in addition to the motor.

Until then, this handsome guy may have to remain motionless.

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits
Reply 0
Volker Frequent poster 981 posts
Volker

Regarding the remark from

Regarding the remark from another forum about NWSL as bet there is bad news on http://www.nwsl.com


NorthWest Short Line will be closing its doors August 30th, 2019. We will not accept any new orders after July 1st; we need the remaining 8 weeks to fill back orders. We hope that someone might pick up the line and continue, but to date that has not happened and so the shutdown schedule remains. Our sincere thanks to all our supporters and customers over the last 60 years!

You'll need to look for different sources
Regards, Volker
Reply 0
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

Look what another fellow came



Look what another fellow came up with,..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forney_locomotive

Quote:

Very interesting as to why this wheel arrangement

The locomotives were set up to run cab (or bunker) first, effectively as a 4-4-0


This fellow is a member of the Flagler Model Railroad club that I visited this past Sat. I mentioned this little loco to him.

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 1
AndreChapelon Frequent poster 582 posts
AndreChapelon

Operational Forney At The WW&F

There’s an operational Forney about 30 miles away at the Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington in Alna, ME.

Mike 

and, to crown their disgraceful proceedings and add insult to injury, they threw me over the Niagara Falls, and I got wet.

From Mark Twain's short story "Niagara"
Reply 1
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

Great Video

Thanks

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 0
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

No Flywheel needed for DCC operation

Quote:

Flywheel only necessary for analog running, when only running DCC no flywheel is necessary. You can influence the coasting by adjusting the CV4 to your needs.

Lutz

More comments here  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/united-brand-brass-steam-12213008

 

 

This subject thread also discusses modifing the older style motors,..

..and parts for the driveline    https://ppw-aline.com/collections/miscellaneous-re-powering-parts

 

 

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 0
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

New Magnets for the Motors

Just saw this ad for some Mantua locos for sale. Interesting comment about motor modifications,..

 

Quote:

I've got three Mantua engines, 2 Pacific's and one 10 wheeler.  Only mods I made to it were to replace the magnets in the open frame motor with the super magnets the neodymium ones.  They decreased the amps used to drive the armature and now it pulls quite a string of rolling stock.  Couldn't see trying to use a can motor when the open frame motor with new magnets worked so well.  I got the neodymium magnets from flea bay and didn't pay that much for them as they came from China.  The size for them is 1/8th inches thick by 1/4 inch wide by 1/2 inch long. They are a lot cheaper from China than from the ones they sell at Micro Mart.  I had to drill out the original brad that hold them in the back of the motor and replace with a screw and nut for the final assembly.  Be very careful when drilling out the rivet and the metal in those open frame motors is very soft and easily broken.  Don't ask me how I know 'cause I had to replace one motor.

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 0
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

B&O docksider

I was just recently reminded of these small steam engines again via several recent postings.
It made me think back about a marvelous little brass model I once had of the infamous B&O docksider. I sold it off when I was thinking of moving to Thailand permanently.

Trouble is I can not recall the maker of the one I had. I recall it was very well done.?....perhaps it was a GEM model such as this..
https://www.trainmaster.ch/X-251.htm

 

.....Should the Docksider be reintroduced?
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/should-the-docksider-be-reintroduced-poll-posted-12207465

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 0
toptrain Super User 206 posts
toptrain

another conversion

The Forney that it pictured is a 0-4-4T. Lead truck number 0, followed by Driver section 4, lastly trailing truck 4.  Another conversion truck was aviable for the lead truck. It could be used on the 0-4-0t and the 0-6-0t little six of Mantua/Tyco, Kentron, Varney or other tanker steamers. When it was used, it made the 0-6-0T into a 4-6-0T with the lead truck conversion mentioned here applied to the 0-4-4T Forney, it would become a 4-4-4T. 

frank 

It's a heck of a day
Reply 0
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

Where is that conversation?

Quote:

So another conversion was aviable for the little six of Mantua/Tyco

 

Where is that conversation,...a link would be nice?

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 0
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

Just discovered this photo on

Just discovered this photo on a long subject thread about steam engines. But never found another reference to it?..

 

Quote:

ray schofield
I agree the steam today is great including plastic, die cast and  brass,but I miss the building and detailing the old kits. Bowser, MDC and Mantua. The hobby or modelers focus  has changed away from building. As an operator the steam today is great, but miss the "Pride of authorship " Here are a few samples of the old stuffforwards.JPG 

Any ideas on origin of this loco??

 

(PS: I also experienced a problem with trying to make a link to that individual posting?? It was located on this page,    https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/steam-modeling-has-come-of-age-12210238  )

 

 

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
Reply 1
Marty McGuirk Regular poster 464 posts
Marty McGuirk

Looks like

someone's freelanced "What if" cab forward. Basic locomotive is a Docksider or one of the MDC saddletanks. Tender looks to be the old short MDC (Roundhouse) Vandy tender. 

Although it may be inspired by some prototype or another, there's a lot of questionable engineering logic with this critter.

Fun little model though!

 

Marty McGuirk, Gainesville, VA

http://www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com

 
Reply 0
smitham43 New member 12 posts
smitham43

Marty's right

that Brian's mystery loco is a conversion of the Varney B&O Dockside. Specifically it was an add-on offered by (I think) Kemtron called the Var-cab. The kit included a cab-forward type cabfront (you can just see it under the brass marker light), the pilot truck and the tender. The loco is also fitted with a valve gear kit called the 'Little Joe Monkey Motion, also by Kemtron?

First one I have ever seen.

David
Reply 0
Benny MRH Author 7,125 posts
Benny

...

And likely a Kemtron Vandy tender.  I've both seen and heard of these for about 20 years now...

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits
Reply 0
railandsail Prolific poster 8,770 posts
railandsail

from another forum,.. Varney

from another forum,..

Quote:

Varney was a manufacturer back in the '50's. I never had any of their diecast powered diesels, but their most famous loco was their "Little Joe" It was a zamac cast model of the B&O RR #98 "Dockside". It sold for $15 as I recall. I still have mine and it still runs great. After I grew up, I changed the cylinders for the Kemtron ones that had all the nuts and bolts and drain cocks on them. I also added a kit that had all the monkey motion and better valve crossheads aqnd guides. A lot of Varney's ads that appeared in the model press were photographed by the late John Allen.

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector
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