Spine/Backbone

For the last couple of days I've been trying to come up with some basic ideas of placement of the mill components, a track plan, etc. I've looked thru lots of images via google, and some of my old magazine clippings. Nothing has 'hit me on the head' as the way to proceed.

I had previously started a subject thread asking about the minimum radius curves that these locos might be capable of?
Logging Locos & Minimum Radius Curves
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/logging-locos-minimum-radius-curves-12210899

It quickly became obvious that I was NOT going to be able to put a turning loop at the tip of this upper peninsula, as the peninsula itself was only going to be a maximum 24” wide,...more likely 18” wide?

And perhaps I was NOT going to be able to put a turning loop down where the logging trains brought the trees to the mill (pond of the mill preferable)?
 

A few days ago I was visiting my metal scrap yard and noticed a new piece of that 'sign post' metal beam I've utilized on other portions of my 'metal benchwork'. My thoughts turned back to this logging train trackage I had been contemplating down an elevated strip over my central peninsula.

Could this beam be the backbone rib of that logging trackage? In other words it would exist strictly as a stiff backbone of approx 8 foot of length. Various pieces of 1-2" thick foam attached to this backbone would provide for the scenery and roadbed all along this length. The backbone might well be attached to the ceiling beams of the shed via 2 long, all-thread rods, so no support structure required from the bottom. And these rods can be placed such that the ceiling fan is still usable, ….but the 3 lights that are part of the fixture would likely be removed.

Last night I grabbed a long piece of alum I had sitting around, and 'strung' it up to represent that backbone I mentioned above,....(I even gave it a little grade to climb from the trunk of this peninsula to the outer tip under the fan. BTW forget that rope holding this up,...just temporary for effect. That will likely be a piece of all-thread hanging from the ceiling studs, and camouflaged as a tall mountaintop radio antenna or whatever.)....

 

 
BTW did you notice that paper plate taped to the beam at its outer tip? I will talk about that coming up.

So now my sketchy plan is

So now my sketchy plan is starting to look like this,..

The 'trunk' of the peninsula is a 2 foot deep piece of plywood across the back side of the layout. I've temporarily relocated my coal mine from the right hand corner over to the left hand corner. So I have a couple of mainline tracks that loop into the helix area, and also have a shortcut track provision to loop around the perimeter of the upper deck. Other than that things are open to suggestions as to how a lumber mill, its pond, etc , and the delivery logging trains can unload and turn around for another trip back up the peninsula??

The logging peninsula itself I am imagining will be about 18" wide, and would have at least 1 track on either side  of some sort of view splitter/divider down its center (at least 2 tracks). These tracks could make various twist/curves, cross bridges, etc, etc with various scenic backdrops and trees to reach either end....about 7-8 feet in length and 9" deep.

At the tip of the peninsula there would be a 'gallows style' turntable to turn the logging locos around, and perhaps hold 1or 2 locos at idle.  That paper plate I mentioned above represents that gallows turntable. I've measured a few of my longer loggers, and it appears as though a small of turntable only 8" in diameter will handle any of them, including the Heisler with its aux tender.

 

Gallows Style Turntable

Just ran across this site with some excellent photos of one at Yosemite Valley Railroad

http://memorableplaces.com/yvrr/GALLARY_HTML.DIR/YV.GalleryRems2009-TT.html

Perhaps I'll need two such items,..one down at the saw mill area as well. or some sort of wye arrangement.

No Activity ?

I'm hoping this period of 'no activity' on this subject is due to someone working on an idea. Or perhaps its just a slow time of the year for model train subjects and the forums in general?

Did I present my case well enough? and/or, are the sketches good enough to work with??

Is there a way I could provide a better 'scale drawing' ? I don't have a scanner big enough to do the full dwg,...perhaps I should just scan a portion of the area set aside for the saw mill?

At the moment I just try to photo the scale dwg I am working on,...and from a considerable distance so as to not distort the image so much. Then I edit it (IrfanView) it down to a smaller size presentable to the forums. Not the best of situations.

Turntable

Brian,

I am not an expert on logging railroads, but I think that most of them didn't use turntables and the logging locos just ran back and forth.  One of the reasons is that the logging rails were often relocated to different parts of forests, and rebuilding a turntable at each new location would be costly and time consuming, as well as eating up a wider spot of land.  I'm sure there are probably some logging railroads that did use turntables, but I think for the most part the did not.

Al Carter

...

You'll find a turntable at any terminal point that needed on, even a short road from Poland junction to Poland Arizona had a turntable.

In your track plan you're using the turntable to turn the engine from one rout to a second route, but you'll find the cars can't very well follow that engine.

There is one way to make this make sense, if your left track was to the main and your right track was to the logging hills, then you could put a divider down the center of the island and have logging on one side and a sawmill on the other near the end with the turntable, the turntable allowing you to not only turn engines but to also reassigning them to the logging route instead of the lumber route.  The logging cars would thus be captive to the logging route.  You would want the tracks leading to the turntable from the sawmill side to be two lines instead of one, so that an engine could pull in a cut of cars, turn on the turntable, and then use the second track as a runaround to head to the tail of the train, remove the caboose to a nearby spur, hook up to the loaded cars, and then collect the caboose at the tail end on the way out.

Turn tables

Considering how often in any given day I look at this site I'm surprised that I didn't see this thread.

Other then the Yosemite Valley RR having one I have never heard of a logging RR having a turn table anywhere. The YVRR was a common carrier RR and they had one at the end of the line at Yosemite Valley entrance point which was also the end of the line for the RR. They used it not only for the locos, but also for turning observation cars I think.

Logging RR's at the end of track may have had a water tank and a fuel source. Quite often the locos carried a hose and a pump and took water straight out of a handy creek.

If a logging RR had a main line it most likely didn't have an end point. It would start out following a canyon and feed branches off of that canyon. The branches would be torn up and the main such as it was pushed deeper into the mountains. For a lot of loggers once trucks started showing up the main would stop where it was and roads took over the branches and the end of track became the reload point. Facilities would still be very few.

Jack

What I have seen more often -

What I have seen more often - at least at West Coast lumber companies - are turning wyes. They are often a result of the mill layout. From what I've looked at a turntable I've only seen at the Pino Grande Mill, CA, of the Michigan California Lumber Co.

Often even the main mill sites were only temporary so turntables weren't the first choice. They existed but are less frequent on the West Coast.

Turning wyes were easily built in the woods at locations were lines branched out from the main.
Regards, Volker

Logging

You might want to try the C&O historical site.  Type in "Lumber" in the archieve section.

To state the obvious, the one

To state the obvious, the one constant of logging railroads is that there were no hard fast rules governing their construction so if you want one to have a turntable then so be it. My logging and mining line has a 90ft. TT with a concrete pit simply because I want it to have it! It's your railroad!

Logging Turn Tables

The Little River RR had wyes at several points including the mill in Townsend, the Forks, Elkmont and other locations, but they also had a turn table at Walland where they interchanged with Southern.

Turning locos

Hi,

while I do like the idea of the turntable, there is something else... You mentioned a grade... On any line with "steep" grades, you'll want to run your steamers with the firebox facing downhill and the boiler uphill, so as to make it easier to maintain the necessary water level at the firebox end (which must be completely covered with water at all times).

Once the grades become really steep, it is usually required to have the loco always at the downhill side of the train to prevent runaway cars. In some cases this lead to unusual stations on mainline railroads as the whole train had to be turned before going down the other side of the pass. Usually this is solved by a dead-end terminal station at the top of the hill. Train goes in with the engine trailing (pushing uphill) and leaves with the engine leading (pulling and braking downhill).

With logging lines being often in steep terrain, I would expect them to not turn engines or trains in normal operation.

So, I guess you *don't* want to turn your engines or run around trains on the logging line.

As mentioned, individual lines' practice will differ.

Have fun!

PS: also, you'll always want to design your logging lines so that your Shay's cylinders will point towards the aisle so as to present the "interesting" side to the viewer. Turning locos would obliterate that

PPS: the "loco at the downhill side of the train" is why you generally don't see switchbacks on steep lines, at least not in Germany...

WOW, lots of feedback

Wow, lots of feedback,...thanks.

I will have to come back much later today and address each entry.

Today I'm working on fitting my entranceway swing-down fixture across my layout's entrance since I got my upper level decks cut and bolted in yesterday.

@Ken K

Where did you come upon that picture? It's one I haven't seen before and I've done a fair amount of research on the Little River R.R.

While I still prefer to freelance and likely always will, I have to tell everyone that, IMHO, The Little River Railroad in Townsend TN. is a great logging line prototype! An interesting history involving some pretty cool stuff.

Michael T.

Michael, The old LRRR website had a gallery of some of the photos in the Little River Railroad Museum collection which were not included in the current website. I am also a member of the museum and help maintain and often run trains on the museum garden layout. This photo was also included in " Whistle Over the Mountain: Timber, Track & Trails in the Tennessee Smokies : An Historical and Field Guide to the Little River Lumber Company and the Smoky Mountains National Park in Tennessee". You can also see a copy of the photo in the museum which is housed in the original Walland Terminal which was moved to the museum in Townsend.

Logging Turntable

Hi Al,
I think you may be correct there, ….probably not many logging operations used them.

But I've looked at a number of the A-frame/ Gallows types where the upper structure is built with heavy timbers and steel rod such that the 'bridge structure' can be a relatively flat plane not requiring big support from the perimeter surrounding track, nor a pit of any sort. With the heavy timbers and likely heavy cables and rods they utilized in other ways in logging, I would think this might have been be a real way to construct a relatively cheap, remote turntable that could be moved to another logging location as needed. And naturally hand powered

I'm not 'timber knowledgeable' either, so I wonder how the prototype guys turned their logging locos for the 'return trip'. I suspect it was some sort of 'wye'. But these things eat up 'real estate' also, even if you are just turning the loco and not all the log cars (actually don't see a need to turn all the log cars, they can run either way?)

 

A wye arrangement at the tip of my peninsula may not be that doable either as its only 18” wide at its best. So that's 'why' I thought of a gallows turntable out at that end.

Besides they look neat, ...and I think I have one that needs TLC, but I can't remember right now.

Addendum 2021: I just discovered this 1962 cut-out I had saved in my pre-computer folders days. It a kit-bashed Atlas turntable with a recessed pit that has a camouflaged....neat idea
 

Wyes at junctions

As dark2star said, it was not always advisable to turn the engines. On really step grades it was better to keep the firebox on the downhill side.

With lesser grades sometimes locomotives with tenders were used were turning at the end of the run was advisable.

The Caspar Lumber Company on California's Mendecino Coast was one of these roads. They ran among others two Baldwin 2-6-6-2 locomotives named Samson and trojan: https://www.mendorailhistory.org/images/railroads/locos/2-6-6-2/2662_01.jpg

They had a turning wye in Caspar and wyes in the woods where secondary lines branched off the main: https://www.mendorailhistory.org/images/Caspar-RR-Map.gif

Two wyes can be seen in the right most quarter of the map and a third in the middle.

The map is from this website: https://www.mendorailhistory.org/1_towns/caspar/caspar_lumber.htm

Here is a link to a pdf with the history: https://www.mendorailhistory.org/downloads/Western-Railroader_Caspar.pdf

The website is worth browsing.
Regards, Volker

Edit: Except for a short stretch of 3.5 percent the maximum grade was 3.0 percent.

Old Time Logging Video

Thanks Volker for that website reference, and its link to that video of the old time film footage.

https://www.mendorailhistory.org/videos/other/video.files/caspar_1.m4v

I have a hard time reading railroad charts/maps,...so I could not tell exactly were the 'wyes' were.

I have marked the three wyes

I have marked the three wyes in the drawing:

 
Source:  https://www.mendorailhistory.org Copyright: Mendocino Model Railroad & Historical Society

Caspar was a so called dog hole port were the cut lumber was transloaded to ship for transport to the market:
http://www.ttbwrr.com/casparlumber/loading_schooner.jpg

Here are more photos: http://www.ttbwrr.com/caspar_lumber_company.htm
/> Regards, Volker

Clarification please

Hi Benny,
I'm having a little trouble understanding portions of your reply,...so a little clarification would be appreciated if you don't mind.

I believe I realized that the cars would not be able to follow the loco,...onto a turntable,...nor onto a reasonable size wye. I didn't feel that the logging cars needed to operate in any specific direction,...so the loco could runaround and hook up to the former tail end, then pull from there?

I was a little confused by your reference to a 'logging route' vs a 'lumber route'. also were you suggesting that the sawmill be located near the turntable I was suggestion for the tip of the peninsula, ie "a sawmill on the other near the end with the turntable" ??

My original thought was to just a single 'logging track' run down the peninsula between the mill facilities at the trunk of the peninsula, and the forest gathering spot at the tip of the peninsula,....and perhaps some sort of 'runaround track'. 

I subsequently thought why not DOUBLE this scenic logging track footage by having a logging track down both sides of a scenic divide?.....not prototypical, nor modeling correctness, but condensed version when modeling space is limited? Is my explanation understandable?

WOW, Volker,Thanks for those

WOW, Volker,
Thanks for those images/references. I found this one of particular interest,...

Even though that trestle bridge is just a vehicle one, it could have been a railroad one if someone is so inclined to model it as one?

I wonder what that smaller, shorter 'thing' is ??

I had been wondering what sort of obstructions might have been in the way during the log's path in the ponds.? I had wonder about bridge/trestle obstructions??

Perhaps my sawmill could be located on the other side of a mainline bridge that crosses a logging pond??

Backward Running?

I've been wondering if many logging locos did NOT mind being run backwards? 
On another forum this was offered,..

Thanks Randy,

That was one of my next questions,...did these logging locos not mind being run backwards? It does appear so, but I rarely see such photos in some of my logging books (very small number),...so I sort of assumed they like to run head first like many of the mainline steamers.

I think you'll find

I think you'll find everything, partly depending an the existing grades.

Take the Westside Lumber Company. The line climbed 4.8 percent out of Toulumne, CA, and the Shays ran boiler forward with empties into the woods: https://www.railpictures.net/showimage.php?id=166803&key=1473308

Downward the Shays ran boiler forward also though there was the 4.8 percent descent down into Toulumne: https://www.railpictures.net/showimage.php?id=390053&key=1473308

I think it was a question of grade and confidence into the skills of their engineers.

Take todays Roaring Camp & Big Trees RR near Felton, CA, a tourist railroad using among others Shays and Heislers on grades up to around 9.5 percent. The route has loops at its end and switchbacks in-between where the 9.5 percent occur. The locomotives run on this grade with the firebox in every position.

I think you'll find examples for every version. The only constant I'd expect is the locomotive on the downhill side of loaded trains.
Regards, Volker

Backward running qualities of

Backward running qualities of locomotives depend on their design. Two truck geared locomotives should behave similar to diesel locomotives. I expect no difference for 3-truck geared locomotives as the third truck is powered too.

Tank engines with symmetrical wheel arrangement should run backwards as well as foreward.

Tender locomotives react differently. Backwards (tender forward) their maximum speed is much less than forward because of their inferior tracking characteristics.
Regards, Volker