nursemedic97

I happened to see a link to the latest proposed tariffs on Chinese goods and thought I’d see if we got caught in the net this time. This is what I found:

A774FA9.jpeg  

Not looking so good right now, but time will tell, I suppose. 

Mike in CO

Reply 0
AndreChapelon

This One Will Go Downhill Rapidly

No good will come of this particular topic and it should be locked immediately before the worms realize the can’s wide open and the path to worm freedom resembles a flood plain during a drought.

Mike

and, to crown their disgraceful proceedings and add insult to injury, they threw me over the Niagara Falls, and I got wet.

From Mark Twain's short story "Niagara"

Reply 0
musgrovejb

Land Mine Topic

Agree with Andre.  I can see where this subject would turn into a nasty political debate in a very short time.  

Joe

Modeling Missouri Pacific Railroad's Central Division, Fort Smith, Arkansas

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLENIMVXBDQCrKbhMvsed6kBC8p40GwtxQ

 

Reply 0
Warflight

Maybe...

But it's good to have the information either way. Thanks to the OP for posting that.

As for political debate... only if people make it that, and starting the topic with "This will turn political fast!" is a great way to kick start some politics.

Let's just say thanks to the OP for keeping us informed, and not encourage the politicking, yeah?

I think we are mature enough as hobbyists to discuss how this will effect our hobby, and us personally, without getting into mud slinging.

I am a firm believer in not locking a thread until it proves to be volatile, rather than on the speculation that it might be, and even my discussing this much makes me a bit uncomfortable, so, let's keep it to the trains.

Is there any word from manufacturers on how, and if it will effect us?

 

Reply 0
Ironrooster

From a hobby perspective...

Do I buy ahead now before a possible price increase?  Or wait until I actually need stuff - knowing that needs change and products may improve?

Oh for the simple days when I just popped down to the LHS/toy store and bought the latest Tyco in stock.

Paul

Reply 0
RAYMOND CLIFFORD

changing lemons to lemon aide

I'm coming from the point of a retired sucesfull small model manurfracture. this is a opertunity to wonce again become the cottage business that it was. I can think of a lot of small hobby manufractures that worked out of their  basements and garages  Bill  Roy   comes to mind. all you need is a used  casting  machine to cast pewter metal, todays rapid prototyping. to make  masters. Urathane castings today are fabalious as good as plastic injection.. The will and dream and stick to it to developelope a product line  and SELL AND MARKET it. NO I CANT DO THAT IT'S TOO HARD. A accountant told me I would not make it . Well I'm retired on the money I earned. regards  Ray MMR

.

Reply 0
Dave K skiloff

It will be interesting

Being a Canadian, it probably doesn't directly affect me as product should be able to come to Canada without tariffs and the increased cost.  However, indirectly, it can have an impact on manufacturers in the US that produce product in China which can then affect availability for me.  Rapido Trains, based in Canada, won't be affected by things they bring to Canada to sell in Canada, but all the models they are trying to sell in the US market now could certainly affect their bottom line and have in impact.

At the end of the day, it may bring opportunity for some to produce certain products, especially details and buildings with a laser cutter, in North America, but at the end of the day, many things will still be made in China.  Not a lot of things will change for locos and rolling stock.

Dave
Playing around in HO and N scale since 1976

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"At the end of the day, it

Quote:

"At the end of the day, it may bring opportunity for some to produce certain products, especially details and buildings with a laser cutter, in North America"

 I think it will be the opposite, the price of trains will go up so folks will buy less including less of these small run US products. There's nothing in tariffs that will make it cheaper for these small manufacturers so I see no bump in their business. Canadian mail order dealers might come out better if they can still import things  fair trade  and sell them to US buyers.  I'm more worried about the cost of everyday items than I am about the cost of trains as I can always not buy trains but need the other stuff no matter what the cost......DaveB 

Reply 0
packnrat

i see this a way for the

i see this a way for the American spirit of innovation to make a comeback.

a good computer person with a investment in a 3D printer (chinese made?)  might be able to make a living off this hobby, other hobby's? or even just things needed for our way of life. (coming from a non computer person).

(not trying to be political here) but just maybe American made can make a come back here.

but yes the costs will never be lower then in 2018. as to chinese made? i hear they are having problems over there that America had some decades back. only time will tell what happens for all this.

i have a number of "projects" in line to do. no money now, nor do i fully know what i need. so i get to do as everybody else gets to do, and that's grin and pay out.

who knows maybe the canadians will build up a reseller and supply outlets? so we can still by chinese made goods via there ports? or we learn to build from scratch what we need? 

(where does scratch come from? china ).

on another thread here is some one doing such already.

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/36688

.

Reply 0
kleaverjr

I still would like to know...

...how model railroad items are a national security material which are the only tarrif's the executive branch have an ability to raise or lower without the Congress passing a bill because the Law allows the executive to handle materials that are needed for national security?!? 


Ken L

Reply 0
jimfitch

i see this a way for the

Quote:

i see this a way for the American spirit of innovation to make a comeback.

maybe American made can make a come back here.

This is a recommendation rolled-out almost every time this subject comes up, and while it would be nice, it's been already rebutted by Jason Schron of Rapdio pretty squarely.  

The trick, of course, is to offer the same detailed high fidelity products at similar prices as the Chinese can.  While tarrifs would raise the prices on what we pay, from what Jason Shron of Rapido has indicated, it would still cost considerably more to offer the same products made in the US or Canada at our labor rates.  That is unless someone can build a robot that can assemble all those tiny parts instead of a person.  I'd assume if there was such a robot, it would be in service now.

.

Jim Fitch
northern VA

Reply 0
TomSP

Manufactures will move somewhere else

Hi,

I am from Australia. Also not trying to bring politics into this subject.

China is already starting to price itself up, ie increase in wages.

For instance Roco produce in Veitnam and at Roco's quality level. Manufactures will migrate to where they can get the best quality at the lowest price.

regards

Tom

Reply 0
Benny

...

I'm confused every time this comes up...

Let's start here.  We have a product.  Lets say it is a hammer.  It costs the exact same amount of resource (1 steel, 1 wood) and labor (1 Labor) and the same setup (1 infrastructure) to make that one hammer.  The company that makes the hammer expects a return on their investment, of which 50% of that return must be reinvested back into paying for the upkeep and retooling of the infrastructure on top of paying for their management and any shareholder obligations.  End result, that hammer is worth the same amount after production no matter where you make it in the world.

So how is a hammer made in the US "worth" more than a hammer made in China?  It is not.  It is the same hammer.  The reason the hammer made in the US is priced so much higher is because production in the US is subject to a pile of No Value Added costs that benefit society but have absolutely nothing to do with the hammer itself.

Take for instance labor.  We have minimum wage, overtime laws, social security taxes, Medicare taxes, FICA (unemployment).  We have work place benefits like sick leave, maternal leave, vacation leave (paid time off).  Be have other benefits like 401K retirement vesting and employer provided medical coverage.  we have some of the most expensive labor on the planet, but I do believe many of us here will feel that we are either still not earning enough, or we are very much like our compensation package and will never be willing to work for less.

Take for instance Safety.  We like going to work and then coming home at the end of the day as healthy and fit as when we went to work.  We expect things like OSHA mandated railings, steps, ramps, and all manner of features that cost the company money to install but make it better for us to work there.  In the US, our companies are further responsible for injuries on the workplace, so they have to have liability insurance to cover those potential injuries.  And finally, we also expect out companies to provide proper Personal Protective Equipment like safety glasses, rubber glovers, perhaps clothing or aprons, all manner of which cost the company money but do nothing to make the end product worth more.

Take for instance the environment.  We like clean air that does not burn our eyes and scar our lungs, that is easy to breathe and does not cause long term health defects.  We do not like it when people dump toxic waste in the ground or in our waterways, we do not like it when companies take their trash and just dump it in the middle of nowhere.  In China, we have some of the worst environmental catastrophes currently in existence, and it is much worse than what you might see in the press.  I have lived in Korea and Experienced it myself - a strong Eastern wind at the height of the Christmas production season smells like chemicals!!

ALL of these items are No Value Added items - they do not make the Hammer worth anything more than a hammer made in China where there are none of these no value added costs.  And when any company has to incur these no value added costs, the company will ALWAYS roll them into the final price of the product.  They WILL NOT be taking a hit to their profit column.  In fact, if you do ask them to take the hit to their profit column, they will sooner fold their business and go do something else where they can earn a better return on their investment than piddle around with a business that is essentially breaking even.  In the business world, breaking even had might as well be going bust.  The people who have the capital invest DO NOT want to break even; they expect a return on their investment and it had better be higher than the 3% or 4% they could make parking their capital in a low risk/low yield account..  You and I are no different, if we ran a business, we would want that business to make our time running that business worthwhile!!!!

So here we have an end product made in the US versus a product made in China.  Our product is subject to all these No Value Added Costs.  Their product is not.  And at some point, our companies were given a carte blanche to move their production to foreign shores and only pay the fee that it costs to move the products over the water, which was once so very expensive where no common person would ever consider it, but is actually very cheap when compared to the balance of all those no value added costs. 

And how did American labor respond?  When places like Walmart opened up their doors, our working class celebrated by rushing out and buying their stuff as cheaply as they could while proclaiming how much they needed to be compensated and cared for on the employing end.  This just does not add up - you cannot have your cake and eat it too!!!

These tariffs are meant to make the price of foreign goods comparable to what it costs to make things on our domestic market.  It is not meant to make foreign goods OR domestic goods cheaper.  And in the long run, NO goods will be cheaper for you and I the consumer; instead, we will be paying what we have decided we should be paying through the addition of all those no value added costs.

I'm not for or against the No Value Added Costs; they do make my life much more comfortable versus what it could be.  I am not for or against the tariffs, for while they do make those lucrative foreign goods more expensive, they make up for the fact that those foreign production facilities do not have to pay all those lovely benefits we regulated for ourselves.

What I am plainly asking each and every one of us is to put your money where your mouth is and actually pay for the No Value Added costs you believe in (and buy domestic goods/support the tariffs) or quit being a hypocrite and demand that we remove these no value added regulations on our domestic market since by ACTION so many of us have no intention on actually supporting what we so proudly claim we believe in.

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Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
Ironrooster

Migration

Yep, China is actually just one step along the road - Japan, S Korea and Taiwan, China, Vietnam, ???.  Some manufacturing remains behind at each place, but the really low cost/low skill jobs move on.

The dilemma right now is the uncertainty.  How long will this last and what does everything look like after it's all over.  Big companies can hedge their bets, but the little guys like model railroad producers probably just have to hunker down and wait and hope to survive while passing on tariff costs to their customers. 

Paul

Reply 0
carvertim

Question

Doesn't the tariff code quoted have an "O/than" which would effectively eliminate items, including "reduced sacle models"?

Reply 0
Chuck P

From Atlas

Dear Model Railroaders,


I would like to address the issue of the possibility of trade tariffs in regard to the model railroad industry. There have been some erroneous reports about tariffs that have allegedly been applied to model railroad products being imported from China, and other misinformation that unfortunately leads to misleading and increased confusion in this, at times, complex subject.
First and foremost, as of Wednesday, May 22nd, 2019, no decision has been made regarding implementation of tariffs by the US government on the balance of approximate $300 billion dollars in export trade with China, the large part being consumer goods that include model railroad products. According to US Treasury Secretary, Steve Mnuchin, “no decision will be made for the next 30-45 days”.
During this time President Trump and China President Xie are scheduled to meet in Japan at the end of June, where trade negotiations may or may not be decided to continue. In the meantime, an exclusionary process is being set up which allows a procedure for deciding if any product will be granted an exclusion from the tariff increase which could be up to 25%.
Atlas will do its best to keep all our customers informed of any news and possible company policy changes in accordance with confirmed facts as they occur. 
Thank you for your understanding and continued support of the great hobby of model railroading.


Sincerely,
Tom Haedrich,
Executive Chairman,
Atlas Model Railroad Co Inc

HO - Western New York - 1987 era
"When your memories are greater than your dreams, joy will begin to fade."
Reply 0
Benny

...

Quote:

Question
Tue, 2019-05-28 06:27 — carvertim
Doesn't the tariff code quoted have an "O/than" which would effectively eliminate items, including "reduced sacle models"?

I saw that myself, and I do believe you are correct.  Scale models are not included under that heading, so maybe we'll see more toy manufacturers pushing scale models?  One can hope...aha!!!

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Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
tommyl

Based on where the commas

Based on where the commas fall, I think the O/than applies to riding toys not the others listed.This exempts bicycles, not everything else on that line. 

 

Tommy Lynch

Modeling the Deutsche Bundesbahn of the '70s in N scale

http://www.facebook.com/BDKaiserslautern

Reply 0
Virginian and Lake Erie

The tariff that is proposed

The tariff that is proposed is 25 percent, not a huge jump one way or another for most items. Regardless of the implementation it will not likely be a huge change. Most items are low priced items anyway.

Since there are several kit makers in the USA their products may become more cost effective.

Reply 0
jimcubie1

I respect the forum rules -

And will not say what I think about trump. 

Reply 0
Virginian and Lake Erie

The nice highly detailed

The nice highly detailed resin kits may be more of a bargain now compared to the boxes to open and you get to build them, big win for me. And for the folks that do not love to build things Accurail is made in the USA and will be unaffected.

Reply 0
Bill Feairheller

Price increase on NCE decoders

Over this weekend the price on NCE decoders from several EBay sellers went up a little over $5.00.  On Friday, the N14SR decoder was on sale for  $25.95,  on Monday it was $31.99.  I don't know where the decoders are made, but as with many electronics it may well be China.  Are we already paying for the tariff or was there a production change that caused the price increase?  The fact data sheets from NCE does indicate that the normal current and stall current has been reduced for this decoder as well as others in the NCE line. 

The price we are paying for the electronic products from China has be very low (for example, small DC to DC reducers 5 for $.99 inc shipping, now 10 for $3.49).  The benefits we received from using these decoders and other electronics made for model railroaders are still well worth the price.

Bill

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

Ready made excuse

The problem is, tariffs or not, it just becomes another excuse to raise prices and fuel ever deepening corporate greed. A lot of people don't realize how manipulated and conditioned  they are and made to be willing to pay what they pay for things. I'll leave it at that before I really get cranked up.

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

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Dave K skiloff

Well

Rob in Texas, 25% is significant for rolling stock and locos.  A $50 rolling stock item will then be $62.50.  A $250 loco will be $312.50.  What about that nice $600 steam loco?  Now $750.  That isn't chump change.  Hopefully this is all just speculation and it won't come to fruition.

Dave
Playing around in HO and N scale since 1976

Reply 0
MEC Fan

HAHAHA

Ah love the pointless topics. 

 

Experts no doubt, experts on global trade, economic systems etc?

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