Shinohara's

A number of years ago I began collecting components for the construction of my 'retirement layout'. There were several occasions were I ran across Shinohara crossovers, both single ones and doubles. My understanding at the time was that this was a premium name, so I bought them. The 4 singles were all new, and the 2 doubles were used. They were all CODE 100 rail.

Again, before I knew of details/problems with these switches I went ahead and included one of the double crossovers in my new layout plan. Its fitted between the 2 mainlines close to where the freight yard connects to those mainlines. It's 2” centerline aspect fits in nicely with my plan, so I am hoping to utilize it if at all possible, ….otherwise I would need to go back and modify a lot of my plan.
 

Yesterday I got the 2 Shinohara double crossovers out and put them on my outdoor workbench to do a little testing

I wired then up straight DC for the initial test. Mechanical all of the locos I tested on these switches seemed to work fine,...no derails, no point picking, etc. This was encouraging considering all the negatives I've run into on a number of forums. BUT electrically I could see there were problems,...even with just plain DC,...

a) the point rails need a more consistent contact arrangement,

b) there was one consistent problem with proper contact between the point rail and its closure rail on one leg of the turnout,

c) as I was closing up for the day, I experienced some sort of a short when I was running a nice Bachmann Northern 4-8-4 across the actual center crossing portion of the turnout (no derail I could determine, just short that affected the DCC ready board in the long distance tender...smoke).

So a couple of my initial questions,

1. what is the actual contact detail of the point rail to closure rail? I'm still have trouble determining it with magnifiers on?

2. has there been any experimentation with a 'closure type spring' for the point rails, as in the Peco switches?

@Brian

To 1.: There is a brass stripe beneath the crosslink between the points near the closure rail. The rivet goes right through it also and makes the electrical contact.

Lutz

Sorry for my typing you name wrong

NMRA gage ... ???

2 different versions

Rather strangely when I put the 2 doubles I have up together I discovered that they are a little different. The point rails on one of them are definitely shorter than the other?
 

 

 

Here is where the short occurred, and it occurred on the tender wheels, not the loco wheels??
 

Point Rail Spacing

@Joe,

I did take a gauge to both of those 'different versions' of my Shinohara's. One of the items that really caught my attention was the extra wide distance between the two matching point rails set in a diverging route configuration,...on the double turnout with the shorter point rails.

I definitely would be concerned about trying to run scale width wheels thru this turnout. I believe they would fall off the rails.
 

When I ran a few steam engines thru both of these turnouts, both slow and fast they appeared do do quite good. And the 3 diesels did well also.

This was all done with DC operation that included feeders to both ends of the track due to the stock insulators installed on the turnouts.

Short @ crossing

Brian, given that those are power routing turnouts I think if you had all four thrown for diverging you wouldn’t run the risk of a short at the spot you circled.  If you have only two diagonal of the four thrown to cross over, then that little gap you’ve circled will have opposite polarity on either side of the gap, so a wider wheel tread might short there.

Your problem is common

Brian,

Can you believe this thing costs like $60 - $70 ? Especially since this is a common problem. It wasn't apparently such a big deal with DC, but DCC really does not like this thing. My buddy got one for his layout and I am trying to figure it out but I am having trouble.

I found the following image on the internet and it seems to have the fix. If I understand it correctly, he cut the rails before the frog on all four switches. He then uses a Frog Juicer to power the crossing correctly. I am not sure if you have to use a juicer or if the power routing from a Tortoise is also acceptable.

Something is telling me it needs to be something smart like a juicer for it to work properly, but I am not sure.

Throw all four

I have the newer version and the point rails are much longer than the older ones. I had replaced an old True-scale double crossover with it. I had a shorting issue on one route when the switch was thrown. The solution was to throw all four at once that eliminated the problem. I also point wired them and removed the little tabs from the point rails as they always caused problems on all Shinoharra switches.

Throw Both Routes Simultaneously

 I've now seen several references to this need to throw both routes simultaneously,...and one reference to a way to make this happen with one single Tortoise machine. Does anyone know where to find that diagram of that linkage required??

Several Linkage Suggestions

I found this subject thread with several linkage suggestions for powering the double crossovers,...

Any clever double crossover/slip motor approaches?
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/any-clever-double-crossoverslip-motor-approaches-12186823

One of the suggestions is rather hard to follow, but this one looks promising and neatly done...
 

Now that I think back about the situation, I built a single control arrangement for a double crossover I added to my old Central Midland layout using a SINGLE solenoid unit powered by a capacitive discharge. I just can't remember how I did it.

Two Tortoise switch machines

Two Tortoise switch machines were used with very little modification. The only change was the addition of a second throwbar to the drive mechanism of the switch machine. This additional throwbar was manufactured from a piece of 1/4" wide brass stock.

http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/projects-1/double-crossover

Double croosover

Years ago I have try to use only one motor to move the four points of the crossover.

This design works but need a lot of linkage and adjustements to work properly.

It take a long time to fit.

So I forget it and use two motors (Hankcraft display motors (Swicthmaster) to move the points.

Easy, fast and don't give any gray hairs !!!

The kirkifier's modifyed

The kirkifier's modifyed crossover and the simultaneous throwing of all 4 suggested by Bod solve the problem, imho.
In the certain case a juicer is not needed and the power routing is possible from the point rails. The upper green parts are red when all 4 touts are thrown and blue when are in normal. The lower green parts behave opposite.
I don't see any reason to power the guardrails in the "diamond". Apart from this, the back of the wheel's flange can cause a short circuit at the frogs on the left and right of the "diamond". The four sides of the diammond are permanently powered as shown the picture..
A step further is the isolation of those frogs and powering them from the point rails. In this case the diagonaly opposite turnouts have to be thrown simultaneously and the other pair stay to the normal. 
After this i believe there is no chance for a short circuit. 
As for the use of a switching mechanism powered from one machine  , I think is not worth the effort. The micro servos and the arduino controller are at very low prices.

Kirkifer’s diagram

Kirkifer’s diagram won’t work without more extensive modifications to the crossover.  The diagram shows the points electrically isolated from each other.  Brian’s photos show the points are soldered to each other with metal strips, so they’re electrically connected.  You can redo that of course, which might be the best overall fix.

But just throwing all 4 switches as one should solve the shorting problem, without the need for additional modifications.

The quick and easy way to throw all four switches as one is to mount 4 switch machines and wire them in parallel.  Anything that requires getting one switch machine to control more than one switch is going to be more fiddly, and probably continue to need readjustment over time as humidity, temperature, and wear move things around slightly. Which approach is best for you will of course depend on your time/money ratio and your mechanical aptitude/impatience ratio.

Single Tortoise Control

I knew I should have posted this info when I first found it, as now I have NOT been able to find it again

Basically it made reference to an article in an older RMC (railroad model craftsman, 1998 maybe) that described how to control a double crossover with a single Tortoise unit and a 'simple' long brass bar.

Does anyone recognize this reference,...or know how it might be found??

ebay

Disconnecting Point Rails

This sounds like a good idea. What is the best and easiest way to do this?

I believe depowering those powered guard rails in the 'diamond' sounds like a good idea as well. How might that be accomplished? Does Allan Gartner do that??

How to read those articles?

@ChuckP
Thanks for your reference to those 2 articles,...but how do you read them? I am a register member of that site, but I could not understand how to get to the articles themselves??.....computer illiterate 

They don't host any articles

MR has MR magazine online if you pay, but otherwise it's just a handy index for all the other magazines. When I find an article, I pick the issue up on ebay.

Use the search luke

Type "shinohara dcc" into the little search box in the upper right on the MRH site - this has been discussed in a number of threads.

. .

Brian, no one mention the fact these are all non-DCC friendly versions of the Shinohara/Walthers turnouts and will require modification to bring them into a DCC Friendly state. You can get partially around this if you devise some way of throwing them all at same time, but they will still not be DCC Friendly.  converting them to DCC friendly requires isolating the point rails, the frogs, powering the point, exit rails and crossing.  The modification also resolves the space/gap between point and stock rail issue. 

Here is what the contact point of the throw bar looks like. Sandwiched between the point rail plate and the plastic throw bar via rivet. I removed a bunch and you can see them in the background. It is one of the weak points of these turnouts. I recycle them into power pickup on trucks. the continual rubbing keeps them for oxidyzing.  All plastic throw bars were replaced with PCB ties.

[attach:fileid=386311_14_+PmRAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC]

Marc

I agree, those bronze

I agree, those bronze contacts are a weak point of Shinohara turnouts.  I had a 3-way Shinohara that the bronze spring actually jammed or locked the points to one side so you could not physically move them at all.

While some have reported making Shinohara DC turnouts work in DCC with a minimum of work - isolating the frog rails, but the points are still electrically connected to each other by a metal bar at both ends.  With the wide variety of engines including older steam engines, there is a likelihood of shorting.

I decide the work to get my DC Shinohara manufactured turnouts (code 83 and code 100) was going to be too much work and possibly melted ties etc. so I opted to sell them and replace a few key turnouts with DCC friendly manufactured versions, at least the code 83 versions.  AFAIK, there never were any code 100 DCC friendly turnouts made by Shinohara, only the Walthers code 83.

How about if one was to

How about if one was to provide a soldered small wire jumper between the point rails and the closure rails.

AND eliminate those solid bars between the point rails,...thus making them independent.

Then provide a Tortoise motor to those point rails to insure a good positive pressure contact,...4 Tortoise motors, one for each corner,...and synchronized to throw together.

Single Issues on Ebay?

Are you able to find single magazine issues on ebay?