In order of appearance

Thank You

...very much there, Prof.

Just before bedtime, I found the bit in the manual about adding a controller. My current default controller is #2, so the next one needs to be programmed to be #3, and so on.

I had forgotten that DCC does give you the ability for constant speed "walk around" when using a tethered throttle. That's a plus for when the batteries in a controller go down on you at an inopportune situation. That will work great for my solo running, but I want R/C in place for a visiting operator.

I will need to see what's available for short circuit protection. I'd rather have the inconvenience of the system shutting down until a "reset" of the breaker, than frying something on account of not being a fast acting, or complete, shutdown.

As for breaking the buss into circuits, I would assume that means a physical break in the in the buss, connected to the adjacent bus via a suitable DPST toggle? Hm. I may need to get heavier rated toggles than the ones leftover from my tri-level layout. I can't remember their ratings, but they're the small "mini" type.

Darn. With the loss of Radio Shack, and Wiseman Electronics here regionally, purchasing the needed electrical supplies with a real, knowledgeable, human at the counter is going to be sorely missed.

Thanks again.

Andre

Suggested info sources

I purchased an NCE ProCabR system about 5 years ago in antcipation of building my current layout. I too had no previous DCC experience. Last year I was able to wire the layout and install the NCE DCC system with virtually no problems. Here are some places to get anyquestions answered:

NCE maintains a comprehensive information library on their website: https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us

Join the NCE DCC forum at NCE-DCC@groups.io

Mark Gurries has an NCE website with extensive information: https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info

More on potential (inexpensive) factory updates for you later.

Jerry

Thanks!

...Jerry!

I appreciate the assist.

Just unloaded six sheets of Homasote... won't be long and I'll need to know what I need to know in order to know how to wire up the upcoming tracks... you know?

Andre

First things first...

Andre:

Now is the time to update your older components while you are building benchwork and laying track.

The current firmware version for your command station is 3/1/2007c. See this link to verify what version you have: https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201873725-PH-Pro-Update-Notes-What-Version-do-I-have-  An updated replacement chip is $17.99 from NCE.

For your wireless radio receiver antenna the latest version is an RB02 with software version 2.1. NCE says they will update older wireless versions for $25.00 each plus return shipping. It's not clear to me if this means they'll update the original RB01 receiver antenna for that price if you have one of them. I think a call to NCE would be in order on this issue. See https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204481075-Radio-Versions-Explained-and-Identified  The latest version RB02 is what you want. I am using it on my new 27' x 16' layout with absolutely no  issues.

I'll relate the wiring approach I used in a separate post

Jerry

Some comments on your original questions

Andre:

First, I have to recognize Prof.Klyzr for his input. I will never figure out how some threads on bizarre topics can get dozens of responses here while others that have applications for many modelers are ignored. Go figure.

You will need to hook up your wireless radio and purchase a wireless throttle and/or add additional Universal Throttle Panels (UTPs) to accomodate plug-in operation.

Dividing the layout into power districts is highly desirable. Wire the layout so you can easilky disconnect sections to troubleshoot. Switches are not necessary, but having the ability to turn off power to sidings is desirable. That way you can leave sound equipped locomotives off.

Bite the bullet and buy a few PSX circuit breakers. PSXs are also available as auto reversers if you need that capability.

NCE makes coiled cab cables that extend to 7 feet. A UTP every 10 feet or so works out fine without stretching the cable on an around the wall layout. There is no need to install UTPs on both sides of an aisle unles there is frequent foot traffic in the area.

Jerry

Thanks again...

...Jerry.

I'm taking a break from curtting/installing Homasote right now. I will likely work out in my Hobby Hut until supper. Tonight I will read your information carefully and proceed as best I can. I have a feeling I'm going to need feeder wires at the least IF I want to start laying track, for there are situations in the stage throat that I want to solder the drops to the rail joiners. Hopefully, I will be successful finding a spool of red and black 22 gauge here in town (O'Reily?) or at (dread) Walmart.

I really appreciate your time to share your knowledge/experience.

Andre

Darn

After supper I went into town and made three stops here in Patootey*, OK. Nobody had any 22 gauge wire. Nada. I can find 14 gauge (or larger) for the bus, but no 22 gauge for the feeders.

(* Poteau)

Using Google indicates there are NO electronics stores left in my closest town of substance: Fort Smith, AR.

Doing an online search for 22 gauge wire at Best Buy's website turns up 25' microphone cords with low impedance connectors.

In Fort Smith, Radio Shack is gone, Wiseman Electronics is gone, DBest Electronics is gone... and no one has replaced them. I guess NO ONE builds electronic projects anymore here in my region!

Not looking good for being able to start track laying any time soon. At a minimum I need source 22 gauge wire regionally in order to commence sometime tomorrow. Otherwise, it's source stuff from the internet and wait, and wait, and wait...

I notice NCE offers "wiring kits", but I also notice it's for "5 amp or lower". Hm. I was kicking around the idea of moving up to a 10 amp power source, so that makes me shy away from their wiring kits.

Question: Does the gauge of the bus wire determine amp capacity? In other words, the NCE wiring sets come with 14 gauge bus, if I go my own route and use 12 gauge, would that handle 10 amps on down the road?

I also checked Amazon and found this:

https://www.amazon.com/BNTECHGO-Silicone-Flexible-Strands-Stranded/dp/B01K4RPE0Y/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1550546991&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=22+gauge+stranded+wire&psc=1

Would that be suitable for feeders?

I should have got my ducks in a row a couple weeks ago on this, now it looks like I'm all dressed up (ready to lay some track) and no place to go (can't find feeder line!).

Now don't that knock 'yer hat in the creek?

Andre

Updates

I highly suggest doing this, you can replace the chip, its pretty easy, I've done a couple upgrades.

Been there done that.  The RB01 will not update.  That means you will need an RB02.  If you want another radio throttle ( a good idea) you will need an RB02 or the newer throttles won't work properly.  I had to update my older throttle, get a new chip and an RB02.  If you have an older radio throttle you might need to send it in to have the software updated.

Well worth the investment.

I've always had great service from the NCE tech guys.

20 -22 ga Wahr

I lived in Van Buren many moons ago.

There is a Graingers in Ft Smith, they carry wire (or can order it and have it there in a couple days).  I have also bought small diameter wire from Jameco and Digikey.

Door bell wire, 10 amps

Andre, take a look at what's sold as door bell wire in hardware stores and such - it's probably close to the size you want.  Or just have a little patience and order some of exactly what you want in the right colors as Dave suggests.

Are you sure you want 10 amp power districts?  That's a lot.  A 10 amp booster with a good transformer can cheerfully pump out 10 amps all day long and think nothing of it.  To put it differently, anything that draws less than 10 amps (actually less than a bit more than 10 amps) is not a short and doesn't trip the booster's short protection.

To put it a little more differently, an HO scale loco that has gotten one truck on each side of a gap in the rail (like at a power routing turnout), may heat up internal wiring or PC board traces enough to cause trouble.  In the particular case I'm thinking of, the smoke was pinkish and the smell was bad, but we caught it before the inside of the shell melted enough to be visible from the outside.

Ten amps is a lot for HO.  Consider more 5 amp power districts instead.

Now you may be thinking that a 10 amp booster with a bunch of smaller electronic breakers will do the same thing.  Kinda.  But for however long there's still a lot more oomph behind a short than there would be with a 5 amp booster.  If you don't need 10 amps in a single district, I think you're better off with more smaller boosters.

Power Districts?

Uh oh... "power districts" sailed over my head.

You mean this one 5 amp power source that came with my NCE set isn't what I must use for the entire layout? (i.e. One power source per layout.)

Is there an online wiring schematic somewhere that illustrates layout wiring for an NCE system, including "power districts"?

Dave:

Thanks, I'll call the Fort Smith Grainger in the morning, too.

Andre

Power districts

Power Districts: Search says...

Dear MRHers,

You know, sometimes that "Search" box at top right of this page comes thru with the goods...

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/25411

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/28318

Worth a read...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Power districts

I have one NCE Power Pro command station.

The power comes out of the command station to a panel, where I have 8 switches, one for each "power district", then out of each switch there is a circuit breaker, then from the circuit breaker it goes to a bus for one of the 8 power districts on the railroad.  there are insulating gaps on both rails between the "power districts".

Its actually a bit more complicated than that, because I wired the half the toggles so half are on one feeder and the other half on another, so at a future date, when I get more sound equipped engines I can put a second booster on half the power districts.

The toggles means that if I have a short, I can turn off a portion of the railroad with the problem, and if somebody runs through a switch it only trips the breaker on a portion of the layout.  The command bus is run to UTP's around the fascia on the layout.  I have one RB02 radio close to the middle of the room. 

I use tethered throttles on two yard jobs and radio throttles for everybody else (even though the layout is wired for tethered).  Generally between operating sessions I use the tethered throttles to run so I don't have to keep putting batteries in the throttles for just a short period.

Thanks again...

Prof and Dave for pitching in and helping me get a handle on what I'm up against.

Currently waiting on a return call from a regional business that MAY handle 22 gauge wire and such. Apparently one isn't allowed to talk to a human there unless they choose to return your call. Sort of a stupid business model IMHO.

Anyway, you two have supplied more good info I need to assimilate.

As for the telephone-type plugs the NCE handheld's and the control side of the command station:

Please tell me such are available via prefab plug-in's/etc. The thought of having to make my own 4-conductor mail/female connectors out of 4-conductor wire and blank connectors leaves me feeling sort of faint in the head.

OH... and I have now concluded that foisting of "connect two wires!" advertising campaign of DCC producers as total BS. Sounds like I'm going to be creating just as many blocks, dropping just as many feeders, creating blocks/etc, as I did back in my rotary/toggle days.

I suppose the upside being that I'll have independent control of engines without regard to fouling blocks. (BUT, fouling a switch CAN create smoke and awe.)

Ah well. The education process continues.

(BTW: Still no return call as I type. I'm desperately clinging to the hope that I can source 22 gauge regionally... but the hope lamp is slowly getting dimmer.)

Andre

Let's approach one thing at a time....

Andre is having difficulty locating 22 awg wire locally. A track plan will help future discussions, but for now laying track and dropping feeders doesn't require a track plan.

22 awg stranded or solid wire is available in a variety of colors on Amazon Prime in 100' rolls for $10.68 per roll. Another alternative is buy a roll of 20 awg solid thermostat cable, or 20 awg bell wire as previously suggested.

i'd suggest soldering your feeders directly to the rails, not to rail joiners. Whatever you do, do not wire your layout using a common rail approach. Provide feeders on both rails.

Jerry

Complexity

That's not accurate, I've wired several rotary switch, multiple cab DC layouts and ain't doing that again.

You can wire two wires to a layout and run DCC and run a dozen engines independently at the same time.

The complexity is as much as you want and has more to do with reliability than anything else.  Electricity has the same voltage drop regardless of DC or DCC, rail joints perform as well on DC or DCC.  Switch wiring is pretty much the same whether its DC or DCC.  

If you want reliability, then you want multiple feeders (DC or DCC).  Its recommended to have feeders every 3-6 feet, so that's the same number of feeders, DC or DCC, 6 ft of track is 6 ft of track.  If you don't want one short to stop the whole railroad, you break it into electrical blocks (DC or DCC) and they can be waaaaaay larger (meaning way fewer) in DCC than DC.  In DC blocks are about one train long, in DCC they are they are generally a fraction of the layout (for example on mine each block is 1/8 the entire layout).  If I had a DC layout that would mean about 12-15 blocks in my one DCC block, each with its own "bus".  I have just 8 buses on the entire layout.  If you have a 2 ft x 8 ft layout that only runs one engine, then the wiring will be about the same DC or DCC.  But the larger you get, the simpler the wiring is DCC over DC.

In DC you have one circuit breaker for each cab.  In DCC you have one circuit breaker for each power district.  I will be running a max of about 6-7 trains/engines at any one time, that means I would need 6-7 breakers with DC or 8 breakers with DCC, not that much difference.  

Reverse loops/wyes/turntables, no complicated instructions or toggle switches.  Two wires in to a circuit board, two wires out and its totally seamless.

I have ZERO control panels on my layout.  Zero rotary switches.

With DC you will be flipping switches forever.  With DCC, there might be a little more complexity in planning it, its actually easier to install and once you have it in place its totally seamless and totally transparent.  Especially with NCE. 

22gauge.. today? (Amazon tomorrow)

Throttle bus...

No problem. NCE now offers a CAT5 UTPs which connect using CAT5 cables. See https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212512946-NCE-Cat5-Cab-Bus-Details

Again, cheap premade CAT5 cables of various lengths and connectors are available on Amazon. I am using thies on my layout with no problems..

Jerry

Quickies...

Dave:

I'll be isolating blocks to keep current where it should be (to prevent electrically fouling the trailing side of a switch/etc.) I'll need to drop feeders on the facing point side so as not to rely on rail joiners/etc. There IS much  work intensity to power the rail when it comes to reliability and protection that what is commonly foisted upon the model railroading populace of "hook up two wires and be done with it!".

That it will result in no rotaries/toggles when FINISHED is a given. GETTING there is still very much like block wiring. Maybe my view will change once I'm in the trenches and soldering... but right now I don't think it will.

HOWEVER, when it's all said and done: No biggie. Wiring is a price we pay for this hobby.

Peter:

The hope was to be making progress on laying track and powering it this week as opposed to waiting for USPS to deliver goods from who knows where.

However, online ordering may be the route I'll have to take, and if so, it is what it is.

As soon as I post this, I'm off to Fort Smith/Van Buren to try two sources for 22 gauge wire. IF these possibilities prove to be a bust, then online ordering it is, and that's that until the wire arrives. I'm adamant that I want color coding (red/black for the bus/etc), thus some other avenues for such wire would complicate that, for typically they're in a rainbow of colors. Been there, done that (kaleidoscope of wire colors) in the past... quicker to get up and running using what's available or on hand, but ups the hassle factor later when trying to find the source of an issue.

Track plan:

My best (older) scanner is not available (installed) at this time, the "new and improved" scanner that was to replace it sucks, so there's not a "good" way (scan/stitch/upload) of sharing a track plan. I'll need to clean up some of my scribbles on my analogue track drawing before I'm comfortable taking a pic of it going that route in order to share.

All fer now. Off to town.

Andre

 "I'm off to Fort Smith/Van

If there's a Home depot nearby they have nice 2 color 18 gauge cable for feeders. Any hardware or building supply should have something similar. You could also get 14 ga wire for a buss there, I used some left over 12 ga  Romex for my new layout. Don't sweat the DCC wiring, as long as your buss runs are about 30 ft. or less you can just branch off one command station. I added a booster on the far side of my train room to keep the runs at 30 ft but one command station would have worked fine for the load.......DaveB 

Back!

...from Fort Smith/Van Buren. I scored 22 gauge wire as well as 14 gauge wire. I can get started with that (so I can test my track) and go from there.

DaveB:

Thanks for your input. I may be way overthinking this... or I could be under-thinking it. We shall see which!

Warming up with some coffee before I head to my Hobby Hut to finish penciling-in the track C/L's. Then I guess I can start laying track.

It'll all work out.

Andre

N CE system

The club I belong to at one time was all DC with #24 phone wire and fourteen blocks.

We went to a NCE Power Pro and used cable and wired with #14 and used the #24 feeders,

We sometimes ran as many as ten sound locos and saw we used about 3.5 amps. Been some years.

A great system.

Our DCC amp meter. I put up a large red LED meter so we could easily see it anywhere in the club room. It tripped at about 4.97 amps as I recall. I checked it out with a high wattage rheostat.

This amp meter works very well with a Harbor Freight multimeter on the 20 ma scale. What we found interesting is the AC scale measured 13.6 VAC at the booster output so we used that as a benchmark for trouble shooting any track issues.

http://www.circuitous.ca/DCCammeter10.html

You cam also buy a RRampmeter.

Rich