John Allen had a plan that

John Allen had a plan that was published in one of the MR annuals many years back. It was a plan that was being built something along the lines of the Athabasca Railroad or something like that. If you have access to their database you may search for it. Anyway in short, John had designed this gentleman railroad to gain elevation without the use of a helix. he used at that time what he refereed to as "spiral tunnels". With the two circles you are showing maybe this is something you could look at. Wish I could be more help, but I stopped my subscription years ago. 

Nolix

Not sure how a "nolix" will work in your space.  One way to think about a nolix is its the threads on a screw, basically it is a helix, just big one that occupies the entire room.

The design issue you will have to consider is that with footprint of the room, if you have a nolix on at least two walls you will end up with a scene on a gradient rising from right to left with a scene with a gradient from left to right above it.  

If you made the layout completely around the room, then you could have a consistent grade, rising from right to left and maintain an consistent spacing between levels.  Like a big screw thread or helix.  With the "G" shape the profile will be more a zig zag with variable distance between levels.

I would do a LOT of sketching and cross sections and maybe even some mock ups using adjustable shelving to see how you like the various benchwork heights.

Around the room Nolix

Here is what an around the room Nolix with a consistent 1.5% grade and 16" level separations would look like:

"around the room Nolix with a

 The problem I see with that is a 1.5% grade implies a mountain railroad and not many of those have long straights connected by 90 degree corners. For a less mountainous scene a helix in a corner with flat or reduced grades might look better, then the long straights would be more typical ......DaveB 

Maybe it's not a Nolix...

I guess I don't know what it is called, then. I was under the impression that a nolix was just sort of a made up term to describe anything other than the traditional helix. This thing is going to twist and turn over itself multiple times and might even have a single hidden helix loop somewhere in all that mess.

One thing is certain, it will be much more photogenic and interesting, watching it duck over and under other tracks. Somehow, I need to work in coal branches that will have radius as tight as 22" with easements. While it might not be completely prototypical, intermodal and general merchandise will traverse the mainline from the City of Metropolis (the big staging yard on the lower level) through the Appalachian type mountains, past all the coal mines and onto the first level which will include a single mainline section of street running, similar to LaGrange, Kentucky. There will be industry and small yards along the way for set outs. The mainline will turn back on itself as it goes through the return loop. Ideally, through the use of view blocks and vertical separation, very few spots will the operator be able to see both mainlines in the same view.

The track will gently rise and fall with the overall goal of climbing higher and higher to the next level of the layout. (A Nolix ?)  A much smaller port area in the City of Bayview (or something similar)  will terminate the railroad.  Return loops at the ends of both levels will allow for continuous running if I choose to do that.

The most ironic thing of this whole plan is that I was originally going to have only a small coal focus with much more focus on port operations. Now, that has sort of flipped.

Is this where a "Mushroom" comes in?

Dear MRHers,

If a recognizable helix (tight spiral) is verboten,
a "nolix" (round the room, constantly gaining height) doesn't "fit",
and the desire is a mountain RR with L/R/L/R wildly-slewing routing,
is this maybe the recipe for a "mushroom" design?

(arguably more complex to design and build,
but the same "height-gained over distance" without a dedicated "helix"???)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

"is this maybe the recipe for

Hi Prof, pretty hard to make a mushroom if he can't use the center of the room....DaveB 

Athabaska

I operate on the late Jim Richard's Athabaska railroad.  It is a John Armstrong design with spiral tunnels which help it gain elevation.  Basically opened up helices.  However, its a large layout.  Some of my photos of it are here which might give you a little inspiration.

Eric

Nolix

Well it is a "made up" term by modelers, but a nolix is where you use run through the layout to gain elevation.  

If you are going to want to go on multiple levels, which I assume means you want separate shelves with separate scenes, then you have to have some sort of separation between the shelves.  Typically the shelves need to be separated as much as the top shelf is deep (really rough rule of thumb), so that means 16-18" separation top of rail to top of rail.  It takes about 88 ft of run at 1.5% grade to rise 16".  That is one lap of the room ore or less.  If you do it all in that peninsula you will end up with something in the picture originally posted that you were trying to avoid, because that's basically what that is.  You could loop the railroad back over its self and run through the same scene twice on grades going in different directions but that really makes it tough to scenic.

Its always a challenge to cram 200 miles of railroad into 2/3 of a room.  Maybe tightening the focus would help ease the demands on the plan?

Figure 8 Helix Discussion

Here’s a MRH thread that might help a little.  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/figure-8-helix-12191645

Lou in Idaho

Sounds like it's time for some professional help......

.....and I mean that in the nicest of ways.   It's time to spend some time with the LDSIG or a consultant.  Rather than spend the money on materials for do overs invest a little for do rights.   This is going to be a larger RR and a little unbiased input would help in the long run.  

reading Dave's post... slopes making opposing upgrades...

Yep. LDSIG might be a good option

As I continue to digest that huge Figure 8 nolix/helix... whatever it is, I really like it, but it is going to be HUGE!  It is going to have all kinda of access problems and ultimately is only going to hold a small portion of the layout. I build modular open grid benchwork, so if I get tired of a scene or have trouble with it, it can get replaced fairly easily. I am not sure that would be as simple with an 8x12 mountainous area...

Mounting considerations

Another consideration is how will the layout be attached to the wall, an how will the grade be attached to the wall.  If you have a horizontal "shelf" that is supported by L brackets from the wall and you run the grade on a long slope against the wall it has to pass through several of those brackets.  You can lower the brackets below the grade, but that will make the benchwork "thicker".  To rise 4" through the benchwork, at a 2% grade means that brackets along 16 ft of the shelf will be affected.  

If you put all the climb in the peninsula, its going to be hard to avoid the "wedding cake" effect of numerous narrow benches with steep vertical rock faces between them.  With that long of a run there will need to be some sidings in it.  That can present a challenge where a train is entering one end of the siding on the NW corner of the peninsula, but the other end of the siding is on the SE corner of the peninsula, so the operators will have to be moving from one side to the other to follow their train.  These problems can be minimized but have to be considered.

Embrace the helix

The model railroad club in Mexico, MO, had a unique helix.  If was "inside out", that is the helix tracks were exposed.  You could see the train all the way around the helix.  

Going around the large peninsula you might be able to get a 6" rise per lap.  If you made the "benchwork"  about 6-8" deep and 3/4 of an inch thick, with a backdrop on the inside, it would make a three of four stacked, very shallow, very short scenes.  At 6-8" wide you could easily put sidings and if one or two levels one each side were made a kidney bean shape, you could make a wider switching area on each side.

For example imagine this, with the ailse on the outside, instead of the inside,  each lap has a backdrop behind it and the layers are cantilevered from the wall so there are no brackets.  You can see the train everywhere, its running on a shallow narrow shelf that is fully sceniced.

Too much space? Nah...

Yes, I am fortunate to have the space I do... Sometimes, I wish I had just a little bit more, but oh well.

It was figured that I would be running 20' trains which is probably just about right. I buy most of my cars and locos at trainshows, a few at a time. I always stop when I get around 30 cars for a unit train. I paint my own stuff, so roadname, etc. have little value to me at this stage. That is for another discussion...

Peter, I like that idea you presented. It is close to the true meaning of a nolix.  I have considered doing something very similar before I was wanting to blow the layout out into the room.

Where are all the good idea people in central Indiana? maybe before I do anything more, I need some layout SIG people or something to come over? I like so many things in this hobby... Originally, I was going to have the ability to run from the staging yard all the way up around the walls. Then it changed to a reverse loop with mainlines (my wife has all kinds of "good" ideas...  ) separated by elevation and view blocks. Now this giant mountain scene. (yes, there would be some decent storage under the layout, but I still have no idea where the five foot diameter Christmas wreath will spend most of its' time.

I have a 130' walthers indexing turntable, a transfer table which are both huge. (I had to buy them before walthers discontinued them, because they are famous for doing that). Anyway, i'm trying to work those in...

five foot wreath?? Natural space...

like placing a coin in a wrapper... make a dedicated shelf UNDER a helix (or shorter upgrade loop) and build the loop a Little Bit larger to 'protect' it!  Lay the wreath flat.

Now that the loop is justified(!), expand the layout 4 feet in exchange. 

(Yeah, the management will  just love that )

Making me laugh !!!

Yes, believe it or not... Okay, maybe it's only 4 1/2 feet, not sure...  I like it, and I am just giving her grief. The only pain with it is the storage of it.

I should just probably leave it up year round. I'm sure the neighbors won't mind !  Actually, I am probably the only redneck that owns table saws and other loud woodworking tools in this neighborhood. Hey... I need them for my trains !

Now, I am going back into a phase of thinking about that monstrous 8 x13 area that would be the Appalachian scenes would be just more than I want to tackle. I guess it is not really that big, but as others have suggested, there is a whole list of issues or reasons why it is not a great idea. I just don't know... I am going to have to chew on this idea for a while. I am just ready to get some trains running !!!

A shed

What you need is an attractive and value enhancing shed in the yard, in which to store all those decorations.

Oh, Ken...

I am fairly sure I would be met with burning pitchforks...

Every once in a while, I think, "you know... a garden railroad or a live steam track would be AWESOME !!! " Could you even imagine trying to present that one to the HOA ?

Yes, I'll stick to my basement.

Okay, I am sticking my neck out here...

Nobody be too critical on my continued thoughts about this 8x13 area. I am in a touch and go position currently.

Yes, it is big. Yes, it will have some access issues, but I think I can mitigate that to a great extent with the right thoughts and planning. I can see coal mines, both lineside and branch line oriented with occasional other industries all along this double track mountain line.  One problem would be that some of the operations might be near the floor and that could cause some problems for some operators.

Honestly, the warning about the wedding cake appearance I approached with great concern. I think with the right scenery, we can probably get past a whole bunch of the wedding cake appearance. What you are currently looking at would be the very top level of track. (think of the two circles on the smaller scaled picture) By the time the curve is completed at the bottom of the drawing, it will have 334" of track length. A 2% ruling grade would allow a 6.5" rise in elevation. One and a half more circles and we are at the target height.

This is going to be a combined helix/nolix/Figure 8 helix to get everything turned the correct direction.

The drawing scale is 1 square equals 3"

The absolute biggest negative is the fact that even though I build it in a modular format, I can't imagine it being very transportable. I'm not going anywhere, so is that really a big deal?

How critical is it?

One way to think about it might be this; how critical is this piece to the rest of the trackplan?  In other words if you build it and either the grades are too much (*) or the scenery situation is unworkable or something, can you rip out this blob and still make the rest of the layout work somehow?  To put it differently, if this blob is going to be the make or break piece of the layout, it might pay to build it first just to make sure it will work out like you expect.  Or at least do some pretty serious mockups of it.

(*) Grades on curves are worse than grades on a tangent.  For 36” radius it’s effectively adding 0.9% (see Joe’s Trackwork book in the run like a dream series).  So you’ll either need to flatten out the curved sections to keep the effective grade near 2% or be OK with an affective 2.9% grade.

Thanks for that number !!!

Wow !!! 0.9% is a little more than I expected. No. My "blob" can be the first part I do.  If you look at my blog, I have started on the staging yard and an anchor scene on the top level, but in a quandary about how to get from one level to the other has kept progress slow to absent. So... I would have room to add a hidden loop in there somewhere for sure, so maybe I should plan on that?

I use Intermountain or comparable wheels in all of my rolling stock and all of my locos have Mashima motors with extra weight or are something like Kato or Atlas. I have a rogue Bachmann here and there but not gonna be much of an issue. So, I do not know if that will make a difference or not?  Thank goodness I run digitrax! the dual throttle controllers will help me run DPU !

As I was thinking about this, I started wondering if the mountains would be better between levels 2 and 3 instead of staging and level 2?  The problem would be the Mountain subdivision engine service facility.

The story goes like this: "Mountain subdivision engine facility in on the east side of the mountain range to give employees more housing choices in a smaller community atmosphere. Engines are kept in the City of Metropolis for turns between the City, but do not need service until they reach the other side of the mountains...."  I don't think it would sound the same between levels 2 and 3.

As I wonder about all those branch lines

In my facebook feed, I saw an advertisement for some kind of rail biking or speeder runs down an old coal branch line in Dundon, West Virginia. History of the line seems to be an independent operation known as the Buffalo Creek and Gauley. Here is the really cool part. It never dieselized. Yes, it shut down in 1965, but that was 15-20 years post diesel on many lines. Over the years, others have attempted to run a profitable shortline, Elk River Railroad was successful for a short while, but the last revenue freight was in the late 1990s or early 2000s.

Elk River Railroad History

I wish I could have seen a couple of old worn out GP-9s tugging hard on some modern aluminum hoppers full of West Virginia coal...

I guess this makes my "blob" much more attractive to me. I want those branch lines with 22"-24" radius turns and 3%-4% grades. Perfect ! I wonder how many I can sneak in before it all gets "too busy" looking?