The Sagulator

Jack, I’m going through a similar thought process, but haven’t come to a definite conclusion yet.  I’m going to put together a test or two before I make my final choice.  But I think you’re right, you don’t need brackets every 16”, every 32” or 48” even should be enough (think about how spaced out you’d put legs if you were going with legs under the benchwork instead of brackets).

An online tool I’ve found helpful when pondering this stuff is “The Sagulator”: http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/

It tells you how much sag you can expect on a shelf with a given span, load, and edging strip.

Leg Spacing

Thanks for the link Ken.

In my case I have put legs at the corner or junction of every layout section. I have one span that is 9'4" long and has a pair of legs at either end. 1x4's make up the frames, no L-girders used. The rest are between 4' and 8'. Each section is 2' wide.

Anybody else???

Jack

Double Slotted Shelf Brackets

I use the doubled slotted shelf brackets for my around the wall basement layout.

There are two considerations for determining the spacing of the wall brackets for a model railroad.

1) What type of wood support is the layout going to have. The two primary types are L-girder and non L-girder. In Linn Westcott's book 'How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork' he has a table of spans where supports should be.

For a 1x4 L-girder he suggests supports no more that 13 feet apart. So ideally you would only need a shelf bracket every 13 feet (at the same distance as you would place a leg).

For a 1x2 non L-girder he has a maximum of 29 inches (I found a two wall stud spacing is just fine).

2) The second consideration is the weight of the layout that will be supported by the brackets. The ones I use have a range of capacities based on the length of the bracket. A 24 inch long bracket is rated for 160 pounds. A 8 inch bracket will hold up 340 pounds.

So if you are making a 24 inch wide shelf with supports at 13 feet and using 1x4 L-girders you really have to think about what weight you are going to be able to install.

Prudence would say a Standard might be installed every other or every third wall stud. Just for the comfort factor,

As I said my layout uses the double slotted brackets but I don't use L-girders just 1x2's to support everything. My Standard spacing is every other wall stud unless I need an extra for going around a corner. And everything is solid as a rock. The reason for no L-girders on the walls is I have a double deck layout and the L-girders use too much vertical space.

Span?

  The main determinate is the vertical dimension of the benchwork material(along with the load to be carried and the stiffness of the material but for wood it's not a big factor,any common wood is stiff enough,and our layouts are all relatively light weight for structural purposes) So benchwork with 1 by 4 structural members can span a longer length than benchwork with 1 by 2 members. 1 by 6 even a longer span. The ultimate strength is not a problem but stiffness is, we don't want our layouts sagging between supports. I typically use 1 by 4 front and rear longitudinal members and set my shelf brackets 32" but for narrower sections of the layout might go to 48"  For 1 by 2 members I'd probably stick to 32" just for stiffness concerns. I prefer the cheap utility pressed steel brackets over wall track and brackets. I just screw them into the studs with long screws and place a cross support over them. ......DaveB

L-Girders

So are two 1x2's made into an L-girder stronger then a plain 1x4? Use them on the front and back sides.

Jack

Non-L girder

I built my layout using one construction around the wall and another on the peninsulas.   Along the wall there are brackets made of 1x4, a vertical support screwed flat to each stud, a horizontal joist with a 45 deg brace, screwed to the edge of the vertical. The roadbed is supported on risers off the joists.  The lateral stiffness is provided by the roadbed and the fascia.  The thing I like about this type of construction is the great access it provides under the layout.   There is no 1x along the front edge to block any reach in.

The peninsulas are conventional L girders, made with 1x4's, having legs nominally 6 ft apart.

L girders

There are two points to using an L girder instead of a single piece.  But an L girder made from 1x2’s is not going to be stiffer in the vertical dimension than a plain old 1x4.  An L girder made from 1x2’s is going to be 2.25” tall (a 1x2 is nominally 3/4 x 1 1/2).  A 1x4 is 3.5” tall, so it’s stiffer vertically.

The main point an an L girder is just to give you a flange to screw up into the bottom of cross pieces you put on top of it.  And the other purpose is to add a little stiffness against flexing side to side.  Both of those of course are only useful if you’re building open top benchwork and intend to add risers to something like spline roadbed.  If you’re just going to slap a sheet of plywood on top there is no benefit to an L girder.

"The main point an an L

Hi Ken, Great point. If Jack can tell us more about what is going on top of the shelf brackets we'll be able to offer better advice.....DaveB 

What I going to put on it?

At this point that is unknown. I am in the midst of considering several layout ideas.

Raise the layout up higher because it will give me more storage space under it and I can possible put work bench and computer desk under also. Current height is 38 1/2", new height would be 52".

Down side is age. If it is up higher it could make it real hard to work on let alone operate it if I have trouble standing. A whole lot of older folks do. I'm 67.

Current layout is 10 x 10 ft. 2 sides are free standing with a swing bridge making a connection. 

Theme could be city/industrial with water front, town and country, mountains, logging and mining

Which is why you haven't seen anything yet about what I am doing. I am working on a couple of La Belle NG passenger cars and having a blast doing so. They have gotten me back to my work bench on a daily basis more then anything else has in the last several years.

I do appreciate the feed back though for me at least it has answered my initial question. Thanks for that

Jack

Sectional on shelf brackets

Jack, if you're not sure what height you want adjustable shelf brackets and a sectional layout that can have the sections separated enough to adjust the height up and down and reconnect them might be perfect.  If the 52" height gets to be too much you could always move it lower later with the help of a couple friends (2 guys to lift a section, 1 guy to quickly adjust brackets down).

Weight

Chances are at some point somebody is going to doing something on the wall or ceiling above the layout (installing or paint the backdrop, hanging a clock or artwork, painting a ceiling, changing a lightbulb, etc) and end up leaning on the layout.  A bracket should to be able to support the owner's weight as well as the layout.

Also make sure you have sufficient screws in the wall standard, into the stud.  The longer the bracket (deeper the benchwork), the more screws need to be in the wall standard.

Interesting subject

I have some of these standards and brackets but was thinking 16” seemed more appropriate for a 24” deep section. At 48” the area supported by the bracket would be eight square feet or 20 lbs per square foot. Add the weight of lumber and scenery then a hand or elbow of my 200 pounds might make it fail. The question is max weight or failure weight (yield point). I’d feel a lot more confident with closer spacing. In fact less distance between standards will help spread the weight across multiple brackets. 

On a similar note, I have wondered if there is a curved bracket that might allow a backdrop to cove up toward a valance/fascia. Perhaps a plywood former could be attached to the bracket in some way?

Weight

Good point about leaning on the layout.  But that’s not going to be the whole owners weight, probably less than half.  Probably a lot less than half.  Especially for higher layouts.  A knee high layout, well maybe then the whole weight.

Ken and Neal

Ken, a most excellent point about finding help to lower the sections. Connect the sections with C-clamps and some sort of connectors for the wiring would simplify moving it or dis assembly when I have moved on to the land of endless trains, and an always perfect climate, whatever that is.

Neal if you have access to the Aug or Sept-Dec 2005 RMC mags there was a 4 part article in them written by a guy who had just moved to AZ and had figured out that his office space at eye level was about the only place he had for a layout. I believe when he put his rails on the wall he also put on 2' lengths of 1x2's to attach his back drop. He curved the corners using one long sheet of styrene that he got from a sign shop cut to order. From there find a way to angle a piece up to the valance as support?

Jack

L-Brackets

Having used L-brackets on my previous tri-level layout, said brackets were placed on 24" centers. This time around I'm going with the "more is better" approach: I will place them on each stud. (i.e. Every 16".) My thinking on this now is: I had rather overkill than regret it later, or have to come back later and add them anyway. (And dodge wiring, feeders, and who knows what else.)

Andre

metal beam benchwork

You might pay a visit to the discussions on this page,
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/metal-benchwork-12207979
 

For instance

or this one from a gentleman from Switzerland

Cut the wall mounts

Cut the slotted rail wall mounts so that the pieces you install are just big enough for the angle bracket that is going into them.  That cuts the cost down and I would do it because I would want a bracket on EVERY stud.  I use a slightly different system but the process / spacing is the same.  Russ

Strength vs. cut tracks

If you’re worried about how much a shelf bracket system can support, cutting the vertical tracks mounted on the wall, especially to just the height of the bracket, will reduce the amount they can support.  Especially if your wall is something slightly mushable, like sheetrock.  A longer vertical track will spread the load better, and add stiffness.

Here's what I did with brackets to support my layout

I wanted to build my layout with legs in the front. Here in Florida the walls (at least in my development) are concrete on the perimeter and metal studs inside. That being said, I used 18" heavy duty metal brackets which I bought at Home Depot to build the lower level. I used concrete screws where I needed as well as coarse drywall screws where I hit a metal stud. Now the builder didn't really follow a 24" standard for studs, so where there wasn't a stud I used 100lb. toggle bolts to anchor in the brackets.  

I didn't want legs in the front, so I bought 2"x2" wood and cut the legs so the feet rest on the floor on the back of the wall. 

I added 1/2" plywood to the top and this isn't moving and can support a lot of weight. It's secure! 

I did the same thing to the upper level and it's not budging at all. 

If I was the original owner of this house, and was there while being built, I would have told him a thing or two..

Neal