I doubt that turnout has 24"

Brian

The Walthers code 83 line was always the same basic footprint as the Shinohara C100.  Here's what I think you're looking at, in C83:

https://www.walthers.com/code-83-nickel-silver-dcc-friendly-curved-turnout-6-1-2-left-hand-inside-radius-20-quot-outside-radius-24-quot-empty

Note that it's listed as a 24/20.  Bear in mind that, as others have mentioned, those radius numbers in the Shin/Walth curved switches are approximate.  I've got a large number of them on the layout, and I've always had to incorporate them by deciding where I want the switch, then building the track approaches as needed.  I learned that on my last layout by building spline for a certain curvature to fit the stated radius (32", in my case), then having to hack the spline when I found out the switch curves weren't as advertised.  

Yes, all the Shinohara code

Yes, all the Shinohara code 100 curved turnouts match the geometry of the Walthers (made by Shinohara) code 83.  I have both Code 100 and code 83 #8 curved.  They are labeled as 36/32 but most measure the innner smaller than what is labeled, more like 30".  Same is likely true for all of the Shinohara curved; take 2 inches off the labeled (nominal) inner radius.

Photos coming

I'll take some photos and show you how i arrived at this dimension a little later today. I have a few home projects ahead of it.

Correction, appears to be 24/18

Turns out you are correct Jim,...my apologies.

That Shinohara I have measures 24" outer radius and 18" inner radius. I'll have some more photos to add to the conversation later,  .....after I attend a train show/sale in Jacksonville this morning, and a community thanksgiving meal late this afternoon.....hummm turkey and sweet potato/praline 

Shinohara Code 83 Curved Turnouts

Interesting site sited on another forum that brought together a lot of those Shinohara curved turnouts
https://www.harrishobbies.com/track_ho_shinohara.htm

24/20,     28/24,    32/28,   36/32

Of course a lot of them are quoted for code 83, and most of them make reference to Walthers as the source

 

BTW, I now now how I came up with that term 'double curved turnout',....that what Peco calls theirs

Brian

Shinohara originally made and marketed codes 70, 83, and 100 switches, all with the same footprints.  Along the way, Walthers gained exclusive right to name and sell the code 83 line as theirs, so most people think of Walthers as the source of the C83, but they're still the same as the original Shinohara.  More recently, Walthers had the Code 83 line (mostly, anyway) modified to make them 'DCC-friendly'; I presume this was done by Shinohara themselves.  And finally, most recently, Shinohara has gone out of business, leaving Walthers to scramble.  I've heard recently that Walthers has resolved this problem, and I hope they have, but I still worry about the future of the product line with Shinohara gone from the picture.  Will there be new products, or is the line 'mature'?  I guess time will tell.

Blair

Any curved turnout advertised

Any curved turnout advertised with inner and outer radii that are relatively close to each other pretty much has to have either a section of larger radius on the outer curve, or a section of smaller radius on the inner curve.

You only have to draw out the curves to see why - if you make the two curves just touch that’s where the points would be - mark that point.  Then find the point at which the two curves are the track gage apart from each other, that’s where the frong would be.  And if you the mark the distance past that where the two lines are far enough apart to allow the ties to not interfere with each other, that’s about where the end of a ready made turnout would be.  And from there back to the points is going to be way longer than any curved turnout you can actually buy.

It takes a substantial difference in radius to get the two curves separated enough in a length that you might reasonably expect for a ready made turnout.

BTW, I now now how I came up

Two peoples separated by a common language (Brits and Americans).  Ask me how I know?  I'm married to a Brit, but she doesn't teach me much train terminology though.

From reading a number of you past posts, you have been dabbling quite a bit with European or British manufactured track, so likely the terminology is going to, at times, add a bit of confusion in a US based model train forum.  Granted, there are an increasing number of British and European and other country based members participating so we are seeing more terms here than ever before which differ from what is common on this side of the pond.

So it does help to realize what is conventional terminology here vs overseas when discussing model track and other things to avoid confusion.  Maybe MRH can post a glossary of frequently used terms from off our shores and what the US equivalent is.

Blair,

I didn't know Shinohara made code 83 track before Walthers started to market their code 83 back in the 1980's.  I always assumed when Walthers introduced their code 83 line, that they went to Shinohara and asked them to make a code 83 version of the existing code 70 and code 100 lines of HO track, and code 83 originated at that time, rather than was pre-existing.  Not so?  I don't recall ever seeing Shinohara list code 83 on their own prior to that, but I've only been in the hobby and reading the magazines since 1972ish so perhaps I'm a noob regarding the history of the track.

You often see the code 83 line referred to as Walthers-Shinohara or W-S in forum discussions, so I have assumed for some years that it was generally known by experienced hobbyists that Shinohara was the contract manufacturer for Walthers code 83 track.

Regarding DCC friendly, my guess is Walthers went to Shinohara after DCC began to become more wide spread and asked Shinohara to modify their track specs for DCC operation.

I have heard also that Walthers has resolved the manufacture issue now that Shinohara manufacturing is shutting down; I would assume they purchased the tooling for the track and moved it to a new factory, or found a manager who is willing to continue Shinohara but just for the code 83.  I did check Walthers site, blogs and announcements but didn't see any news there.  Apparently there was a post on FB when the originally mentioned difficulty in getting their code 83 products.

"I have heard also that

  Shinohara also made some nice S scale flextrack. I hope someone picks up the molds and continues it.....DaveB 

Jim,

I have a large number of older Shinohara boxes, some with switches still in them; I assure you they're C83, not 70 or 100.  They were purchased mainly in the early 90's from a store that had a deep stock of the stuff; he is/was big into the estate recycling business, so I'm sure some of what I have goes back to the 80's, at least.  The marking on the boxes is original (not scribbled over, for example).  Of course, these are all "DCC agnostic".

Blair

Making Shinohara DCC Compatible

Jim,
Did your previous layout have DCC? If so did you have to modify (and how) the turnouts to be DCC freindly.??

I assume that metal tie bar across the points rails needed modifying, ......and the frog area needed isolation of the rails as they appear to actually join at the frog?

Excuse me, early TK dinner calling

Early turnouts modifications to become DCC Friendly

Some years ago I modified old turnouts to show how it's quiet easy to make then DCC friendly.

In fact it's just using Fastrack method and use a jeweler saw to cut the rails which form the frog, before the frog and after the frog, and solder a feeder Under the frog for power.

I find its better to do it also with old insulated frog, because old tolerances can give short in the frog area and with the feeder the frog is always Under the good polarity.

For the throwbar, if the stock one is not isolated, I mean, each point rail are connected togheter, you can easily replace the stock throwbar by a PC ties also like Fastrack.

This method is easy and give you excellent results.

You could also upgrade electrical contacts by soldering fine jumpers between stock rails and point raisl.now you have an old turnout which is DCC friendly.

A little bit more sophisticated you can do it with double slip too.

DCC conversions

for Shinohara, Walthers and many other products are covered encyclopedically at wiringforDCC.com.

Blair

Blair, Interesting bit of

Shinohara. code100, curved turnout

As I have mentioned above i was incorrect when I first assumed it was a 24/22 turnout.

So first I took my RibbonRail gauge and inserted in the outer rail curve,..
 

Next I went about determining that inner rail radius, and I tried several different methods..

First laid out over my drawn curves
 

Second, with a piece of 18" Atlas sectional track laid over the inner radius...
 

Damn close to 18" inner radius I would say.

So I pronounce the Shinohara as a 24/18, which seems to match their code 83 offerings as well.

Well,

we dropped one of those into an industry location last fall.  Hasn't seen traffic yet.  Since it'll only ever see 40' tank cars, I'm not worried, but it'll be the tightest radius on my layout.

Thanks, Brian

Blair

Shinohara 24/18 vs Peco 22/18, strange

Something rather strange came up when I tried this little experiment. I laid a paper template of the Peco dbl-curve over the Shinohara dbl curve in such a manner as to align their inner radii. seeing as how the outer radius of the Shinohara is definitely larger than that of the Peco, its strange that it does NOT appear that way in this photo??

Decisions of import are at

See the attached picture of

See the attached picture of your shinohara turnout

A = Cut in the rails made with a jeweler saw to isolate the frog and need a feeder soldered Under the frog rails

B = Small jumper wires soldered under the rails to make electrical continuity between stock rails and point rails

C= New PC ties to make a new throwbar  with a cut in the middle to isolate the points each side.

You could also solder very fine jumper from the hinged rail of the points and the fixed parts of rails point.

Just a few minutes to do; the jeweler saw cut work is show in video on the Fastrack website ( same system).

A few pictures of Peco code 55 in N scale which were modified to obtain a really DCC friendly turnout, arrows show were I cut the frog with a jeweler saw, and second where small jumpers where soldered between stock and points rails

Visually,

Walthers lists the ST244 as having

Inside Radius 17-1/4" 43.8cm Outside: 19-7/8" 50.5cm

That Peco outside rail does not appear to be constant radius.  Trace 3" at the start of the switch, and compare with the end; it looks to me like it's starting at a broad radius and tightening as it curves.  Hence the use of "nominal".  But that may be a perspective thing with your camera, not sure.

Blair

What to do about Shinohara/ Walthers

Jim,

I have five Walthers/Shinohara curved No 8s on my layout. They are causing problems with a small but significant group of locos. These locos would be the usual suspects: longer rigid wheel base equipment, but nothing too crazy just some odd issues with a Pacific, small consolidation, large mountain (the mountain is rated at 24"). These locos have no problems anywhere else on the no 6 turnouts on the layout, just through the curved turnouts on certain routes. 

I have opted to go with custom built turnouts in an effort to fix the problem. Just recently received the first turnout but haven't had a chance to install as I didn't want to mess things up during the OPs season.

I didn't use Pecos because at the time the were only code 100 and I am not fond of the appearance among other things....(like over wide flange ways).

On the radius issue: I have scratch built three curved turnouts to fit custom spots on the layout.  One in particular was at the top of the helix where no matter how I tried I couldn't get anything commercial to fit a 32.5/30 radius configuration. Having built three curved turnouts, I have since decided that it is a better use of my hobby time to buy them from some one who knows what they are doing (mine all work well - just took way too long and too much fussing to get them right).

My suggestion if you only need a few, is to buy them from a custom builder in exactly the configuration you need. For those thinking of pushing radius limits through Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts, my experience says I wouldn't count on it.  Might work, might not...

Guy

Guy, I get what you say about

Guy,

I get what you say about Peco code 100 appearance, but note that I am using code 100 in staging where appearance is not important and will be using code 83 in visible parts.

My plans are to use, where appropriate, Peco code 100 Streamlined curved turnouts 60/30 nominal in staging and the Peco code 83 curved 60/36 nominal in visible parts of the layout.

I have no plans to go to a custom turnout builder - I don't even know one or how much they would charge.  Believe the rolling stock I have should be fine with 30 inch or greater curves.

 Ken Rice Any curved turnout

GregC offered these sketches over on another forum,...

The greater the difference in radii, the closure the frog is to the points

The frog for a properly laid out 22/24" curved turnout is 17" lateral inches from the points.   See other diagrams for comparison

Based on geometry, it looks like a curved turnout with an outer radius of 24" and a #6 frog would have a 16" inner radius.

But I don't think curved turnout frog numbers are important with respect to curved turnouts, the radii are.   In straight turnouts, the frog number suggests the closure rail radius and whether a locomotive can handle it.