hobbes1310

Two prototype questions: Graffiti and Pantographs

Typical the thread gets shut down. Since a vocal small aspect don’t like it.

To people modelling modern area as myself and others. It is valuable research. Along the same lines as say roof walks on earlier freight cars. Maybe that gets my temper up. Shall we apply the same standards and close those type threads.

The aspect of it being unlawful shouldn’t come into the fact. As we are modelling what is current. I could point to other areas of modelling such as WW2 or other areas. Slippery Slope.

Phil   

Reply 1
Rick Sutton

Oh well

At least this time we learned a little about pantographs

Any thread that mentions gr****** always ends the same way. We should just get a template of answers that could be cut and past and insert it every time.....would be easier and just as useful.

 On another note...

 Phil, I sure enjoy following along on your progress! Anytime I see the hobbes1310  name I'm checking in and really enjoying what I see.

Reply 0
blindog10

one problem with modeling graffiti

It makes each car that much more noticable as an individual, so given we don't have as many cars as our prototypes in most cases (and we are talking modern railroads here), it makes it obvious we are seeing the same few cars over and over. Which to me is no different than having a fleet of over-weathered cars, or a half-Noah fleet of locomotives. But graffiti is so ubiquitous in post-1997 railroading it's hard to model trains prototypically and not have graffiti. A graffiti-free layout set in 2018 would look sterile. One reason my modeling era stops in 1994. Scott Chatfield PS: Phil, I've been enjoying your progress too. I was worried when you asked about deleting blogs.
Reply 0
monsterrailroad

Graffiti is Gorgeous!

I love Tagged rollingstock and even Locomotives!  Gorgeous and makes them unique!!  HUGE FAN HERE!!

Big Al Mayo

Reply 0
Joe Atkinson IAISfan

Not a fan

Personally, I'm not a fan of graffiti, and for a midwestern regional prototype like mine, I'd say you could model a much later period and still justify being largely graffiti-free.  I once studied many hours of video footage of IAIS trains from my May 2005 era and made note of the tagged cars.  By my count, only about 5% of cars operating on the IAIS at that time had been hit.  I even have a number of pics of completely untouched ARMN reefers from my era and even into late 2006, even though those cars later became magnets for graffiti.

I think the traffic patterns for equipment on the IAIS led to a delay in how quickly graffiti took hold.  Their grain hopper fleet, for example, was more likely to go to southern US points (where tagging was much less prevalent) than to the coasts.  Also, they had/have a zero-tolerance policy on locomotive tagging.  When GP11 485 was tagged in Des Moines in 2008, it was immediately sent to Council Bluffs for paint work, and the graffiti was gone two days later. 

So Scott, I think you'd be safe to let your era creep a bit later if the desire ever struck you. 

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"Their grain hopper fleet,

Quote:

"Their grain hopper fleet, for example, was more likely to go to southern US points (where tagging was much less prevalent) than to the coasts."

  Yeah location means a lot. We had tagged cement cars here on the west coast in the 80's. Cars that sat at easy to access locations and have nice expansive sides are more likely to be tagged than cars such as intermodal  that run from secure point to point and have small areas to decorate. In the post merger world of limited sterile paint schemes graffiti adds a much needed variety to our freight trains.....DaveB

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

LA switching

Dear Graffiti/modern era fans, Agree that graffiti prevalence can be significantly affected by traffic flows and geographic location... Just google "union pacific genset" to see how LA based units get "decorated"... (indeed, one can trace the history and detail-change eras of a loco or sled by the visual evolution of the graffiti...) Happy modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr
Reply 0
hobbes1310

Thank you for everyone's

Thank you for everyone's replies so far. 
Yes the subject can stir up view points. To be honest I look at this subject from the modelling view point. Like as DaveB has mentioned. Location means a lot. Since I don't live in the States. The internet is a gem of information .
 I'm trying to model modern era. Tagging is part of that era. Yes not everyone likes it. hey I can't stand steam engines, But that's just me. IN saying that I'm not going to slander a post regarding steam engines Just because i don't like them. That would be wrong of me. And nobody is forcing me to read them etc.

 

Quote:

I once studied many hours of video footage of IAIS trains from my May 2005 era and made note of the tagged cars.  By my count, only about 5% of cars operating on the IAIS at that time had been hit.  I even have a number of pics of completely untouched ARMN reefers from my era and even into late 2006, even though those cars later became magnets for graffiti.

 Thank you Joe These type of observations are what I'm talking about in modelling a subject. In a rational factual way.

Quote:

Phil, I sure enjoy following along on your progress! Anytime I see the hobbes1310  name I'm checking in and really enjoying what I see.

Thank you Rick. very kind words. TBH I have spends a great deal of time reading your working studying your photos looking at the colour texture of your work.

 

Quote:

But graffiti is so ubiquitous in post-1997 railroading it's hard to model trains prototypically and not have graffiti. A graffiti-free layout set in 2018 would look sterile. One reason my modeling era stops in 1994.

Scott Chatfield

 Yes that is true re 1997. Hence why I'm always interested in the subject as I want my little world to look as real as I can. Just like you pour your efforts into enjoying creating your world set in 1954.

 

I love Tagged rollingstock and even Locomotives!  Gorgeous and makes them unique!!  HUGE FAN HERE!!

Big Al Mayo

And you should be be able to enjoy modeling it. Since its a passion to you.

 

Quote:

 

Scott Chatfield

PS: Phil, I've been enjoying your progress too. I was worried when you asked about deleting blogs.

Thank you Scott for enjoying my progress. I do wonder sometimes if people do. But then I think Everyone has busy lives. And its a great reference for me to look back at my progress too.

 

Well nothing more needs to be added here as Rick Stutton has said "cut and paste answers perhaps". If you don't love it. That is completely fine with me. 
But if a person does enjoy modelling it. Don't you think they deserve the same civil respect as a person asking about modelling snow shed for 1940 in the Rockies? Its all modeling at the end of the day. Nothing more nothing less.

Phil

Reply 0
DirtyD79

Yeah location means a lot.

Quote:

Yeah location means a lot. We had tagged cement cars here on the west coast in the 80's. Cars that sat at easy to access locations and have nice expansive sides are more likely to be tagged than cars such as intermodal  that run from secure point to point and have small areas to decorate. In the post merger world of limited sterile paint schemes graffiti adds a much needed variety to our freight trains.....DaveB

Another thing to consider is that certain commodities are seasonal and cars that are dedicated to hauling a commodity that isn't in season are also gonna be spending some time sitting idle. For example cars dedicated to grain service probably won't be getting much use outside the harvest season unless they're can be used for other types of loads. Even general service cars might be sitting at sidings if there's a downturn in traffic. 

"The good ole days weren't always good, and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems."-Billy Joel
Reply 0
Don Mitchell donm

Graffit exhibit

Graffiti can be viewed as vandalism, art, or both.  Regardless of the viewpoint, it exists and so must be modeled if there is to be that elusive goal of true prototype modeling.

Here are two of the displays in the current exhibit of railroad based graffiti in the San Diego Model Railroad Museum:

20subway.jpg 
Subway car
 
ox%20car.jpg Box car

Don Mitchell

R%20logo.jpg
Read my blog

Reply 0
mike horton

G word

It's as ubiquitous as rust in modern railroading. I don't know why people get their shorts twisted in knots over the subject, it's like any weathering. If you don't like it,fine, don't beat a dead horse every time the subject comes up. I don't care for it,but I model 1968, so it's not around except some chalk marks and the occasional peace sign painted on bridges. I'm glad I don't model now, it's to hard to replicate. Breath easy fellow modelers, it doesn't mean you agree with it if you model it.mh

Reply 0
Rick Sutton

Location

and rail traffic type/routing certainly makes a difference.

The area I Model is a magnet for grafitti enhanced rolling stock. Most of the grafitti appears to be from out of town jaspers. As a contrast there is little grafitti evidence on local buildings. 

I would find it very difficult to model the flavor of this place with clean boxcars.

139E904.jpeg 

BE38697.jpeg 

E6B46F8.jpeg 

47E1AAB.jpeg 

 

ex%20box.jpg 

 

 

Reply 0
blindog10

one for Mike Horton

 

Graffiti or advertising?  At a quick glance how many people would notice it's "Burner" and not "Burger"?

DSC_0073.JPG 

Scott Chatfield

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

TBOX

Dear Scott, Yep, graff painters learned years ago that for max exposure of their work, "xBOX" cars were the weapon of choice, as they they tended to roam the entire NA rail system. In Roger Gastner's "Freight Train Graffiti" book, painters noted that, just like railfans, East and West coasters were surprised/interested/intrigued when a "piece" from afar-away was spotted on their local rails... I have a few TBOX on the roster, that "Burner King" image may well have a date with Photoshop and the decal-printer in its future... Thanks for posting it! Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr
Reply 0
IrishRover

Not my plan

When I started the original thread, I was trying to get some information, and didn't want the graffiti war going again, though I admit, I did get sucked into it.

Reply 0
blindog10

I have a square-on shot

Prof K, I got a square-on shot of Burner King later in the day with almost no shadow. I can send you the original image. I wonder how many folks have seen this car, got hungry, and stopped at BK for a burger? Maybe we can sue the "Burner King" tagger for promoting non-PC eating choices?.... Scott Chatfield
Reply 0
Warflight

I'm actually learning a LOT...

I'm glad the subject is back, because I'm actually learning a LOT. Not just about pantographs (that was pretty much covered in the other thread) but also the "g-word" issue as well.

I wonder if any thought beyond "here's a big canvass" is the drive though... I mean, sure, it moves around the country for a lot of folks to see, but it's not like it has contact information on it, so outside of ego, what good is that?

Fun story on modeling it though... so I was at my local hobby shop, and the subject of modeling graffiti came up... the owner said he knew a guy up in the Bay area that HATED the very thought of it... said he would NEVER carry ANYTHING with graffiti... a few years later, he carried a LOT, and even got skilled in weathering modern cars with graffiti.

It's a love/hate relationship, really.

Not really what I would call heated though... it's not like anyone is arguing FOR graffiti in real life... just some people want to model it, some don't.. some thing it's cool modeled, some don't... some people model in HO, others in N, still more in O or S... and we come here to talk trains, and train related things, and in the end, we learn from the discussions.

Personally, I don't care for it, but, I have seen some modeled graffiti that blew me away. I model a more idealistic setting, which is why I model a movie studio.

My railroad, my rules... just as your railroad, your rules.

I do want to say how impressed I am at the maturity that is demonstrated by my fellow modelers, that no matter how you feel about a subject, we're all still civil.

I wish conversation were like this in other areas of the Internet!

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Contact info

Dear War, Oh yes, many "pieces" have ID info as part of the design, and if you know where/what to look, linking a graffiti ID to a location/home-base is not that difficult.... (graff maps and websites included "spotted in X location..." sections, just like railfan websites do...) Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr
Reply 0
Graeme Nitz OKGraeme

Pantographs...

...Another couple of reasons for the pantograph on the rear. These were told to me by an Engineer (Civil not traindriver) for the Victorian Railways Australia.

1: If the pantograph pulls down the wires then the live wires will be more likely to fall behind the locomotive and it is therefore safer for the crew to leave the loco. If it is a passenger train they should warn passengers to not leave the train for obvious reasons.

2: Dirt. a lot of dirt and crap falls off the wires when they are rubbed by the pantograph and this is not wanted on the top of the loco because there is often a lot of switchgear etc. on the roof and it can cause issues such as shorts or insulating the switch contacts.

 

The PRR had a policy in severe winter weather to run both pantographs up with the front one switched out. This would break off any ice and allow better contact for the rear one. Less sparking so the pantograph shoes didn't wear as much.

 

Graeme Nitz

An Aussie living in Owasso OK

K NO W Trains

K NO W Fun

 

There are 10 types of people in this world,

Those that understand Binary and those that Don't!

Reply 0
mike horton

One for me?

nice, thanks Scott, too difficult, I'll stick to the sixties.

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Dual pantos = current handling?

Dear Pantograph fans, Can't recall where I picked this up, but I seem to recall that dual-pantos per loco may also be related to the current-draw out of the wires under heavy starting loads? Fwiw... Happy modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr
Reply 0
p51

Spray cans... can't ignore it!

I think it's silly to not model something so obvious if it's correct for the era you model. Modern era models will have to have the 'tagged' stuff in some amounts if you want to model the real world. There's no way around it.

I model the WW2 years, so it's a non-issue for me.

It's only an annoying issue for me when someone inevitably goes on and on about how it's 'artwork' in an overall view of the reality (not the modeling of said reality).

I'm reminded of a guy I worked with who argued the artistic merits of tagging-

-until the day his house and fence got tagged. Instantly (for forever after), it became vandalism to him because he now had to remove it from his own property.

Reply 0
Warflight

@Lee

You modeling WWII era... there SHOULD be a "killroy" at least... somewhere... on a car maybe, because the community you model doesn't seem like it would "cotton" much to that, so it would have to be on an out of town car, or maybe on a piece of paper on the bulletin board at the Army base (if memory serves me correctly, "Killroy" started overseas during the war, and migrated to Army bases, before it became popular with civilians in the 50s)

Hmmm... now why was the movie American Graffiti called "American Graffiti" when there didn't seem to be any graffiti in the movie (that I recall)

Reply 0
Warflight

Pantographs

So, whenever I ride the San Diego Trolley (fun fact, the trolley is the wires above, what we call the trolley, is a trolley car... I learned that from one of the homeless guys at the Old Town station) and I see those pantographs up, and I realize I'm in an "electric train" I always feel like "oh great, what if there's dirt on the track!"

Around the stations there is sand between the rails a LOT... you can't see it from afar, just as you're crossing the tracks to get to the platform at Spring Street... this fine white sand, and I wonder how the trolley doesn't end up losing connection (still thinking about model railroading of course) and then realize that there are batteries, and backups for such a system. There would have to be. So i wonder, on the average trolley type system, or electric engine... how long can they go without power? If both pantographs end up knackered... how far can it get?

Reply 0
monsterrailroad

I still find it totally

I still find it totally ridiculous that "someone" on here thought it was a good thing to lock your first topic because it was about graffiti!  Seriously?!  All because it struck hard feelings on that topic?!?  That is so corny yo!

Big Al Mayo

Reply 0
Reply