To kick things off

Hi all,

to kick things off, a copy of the full original post from that other thread. 

As I said previously, "That's enough for this post",. 

Here's why the "Unlimited Rule" for 'Derra North

Hi all,

Now Neil has latched onto to the "Unlimited Rule" in the other thread, here's why it would apply to "Derra North"

Prior to the Port Kembla coal loader was built in the early 1960's with its triangle, there was only the earlier Coniston/Lysaghts/Derra North triangle. However the Unanderra-Coniston route was also part of the diversion route for the "Main South" Sydney to Melbourne route if there were problems between Sydney and Moss Vale. This basically means that any train that ran the "Main South" "could" make an appearance at "Derra North on the Unanderra Coniston link. However this route to Moss Vale also included the 1-in-30 (+3%) grade between Unanderra and Summit Tank. So depending on the load, bank engines (helpers) were required for the uphill shove and sometimes for extra braking downhill. 

Remember from my previous post:

It's time for those "rough calcs" -

Some ballpark figures - all prices in Aussie dollars for RTR equipment, take 30% off for US equivalence

Cost of a steam locomotive - $350 to $500  each

Cost of a main line diesel-electric loco - $250/$320 each  

Cost of a branch line diesel electric loco - $150 each

Cost of a 4-wheel freight wagon (late steam early diesel era) $25 each

Cost of a bogie freight wagon - $35 each

Cost of a passenger coach - $60 each 

Electric multiple units - are available but I haven't been able to find a current price - Say $400 for a 4-car set.
These appeared after 1985 when the electrification was extended from Waterfall to Port Kembla and Dapto.

If the period is adjusted to post-1985 so that the grain terminal is in use then this means that for:

1. a "standard" 45-wagon coal train with 2 main line diesel locos up front =  $2075/train
2. a Tahmoor coal train of 45 wagons plus 3 4000HP diesels (2 up front plus 1 shoving = $2300
3. a 'standard" 40-wagon wheat train and 2 diesels =$2000 approx
4. an 8-car EMU (electric multiple unit)  passenger set = $800/set and there were at least 3 different types
5. a steam loco-hauled  "excursion train" of 6 passenger cars and "backup power" heritage diesel = $1000 approx
6. a "diverted" XPT 6-car set = $500 
7. a "diverted" Southern Aurora (Sydney-Melbourne express) 3 diesel locos plus 15 passenger cars = $1200
8. a slab steel train up the Moss Vale line - 3 locos (1 shoving) and 25 wagons with steel slab loads = $1600
9. a loco-hauled set of 5 Budd RDC's = $'s unknown for the Kato RDC1's plus $250 for the locomotive. 

Some years ago in the initial analysis I was able to close to 30 different train consists and routes that were run on the prototype,.Changes in prototype operations since that initial analysis will have increased those options.  

It would be very easy to sink $10K to $20K into this layout just for the rolling stock and you haven't built the layout that would be a BIG basement filler especially if the coal and grain terminals are modelled in detail as 'storage in plain sight". 

That's enough for this post,

Boyz from Down Under

A guy can dream can’t he?

I’m following along and inspired to think of similar examples “If I Had A Million Dollars”. 

Thanks Mate!

Look forward to following

Look forward to following your blog from across the ditch.  Always thought about doing an Aussie layout. Something long BHP etc. As you guys have a decent range of models. Wish it was the same for NZR models

Phil

Million dollar

One thing I would never do is to make the addition of all I have invest in my 40 years modeling in N scale.

Believe me it's a lot of money, thousands bucks for sure!

Marc

If I had a Million Dollars...

Hi Neil and all,

Hmm, working on some more rough calcs...and factoring in a change in scale to HO where just about everything I might ever need is readily available (for a price!!!)

600K just might get me a block of land big enough for the

200K worth of "aircraft hangar" with enough room to fit 

80K worth of track and understructure with scenery and control systems contract built to run

20K worth of rolling stock that just might cover everything that ever ran over 'Derra North...

and I'd still have 100K left for the ongoing crew party... .

A local has already shown the way - Marsden (Mick) Williams was a very private railway modeller whose place (The T House) was about a mile up the hill from where I grew up. Mick was the owner of a major equipment hire, steel fabrication and other businesses. Mick passed away in 2013. The following YouTube documents what was the T-House. Sitting in another glass case not shown in the video was a 5" gauge live-steam  "Britannia" 4-6-2 UK express passenger locomotive that was built in Japan. Yes I was lucky enough to know one of the 40 invitees mentioned in the following video who saw the T-House in all its glory.. 

This would be the standard to which 'Derra North could aspire if money was no object...Draughty tin sheds are a no-no.   

Now back to the N-scale "improbability" that started this thread.

Period Analysis that defines traffic types prior to the 1980's:

Hi all,

First up - some basic analysis of the the local rail and industry history and how it affected traffic types between Port Kembla in the east, Wollongong/Sydney to the north and Unanderra and points further south and west.

Local Industrial and Political History

Prior to 1985 and the installation of the second triangle leg from the south to the coal loader.- Remember Australia didn't exist until 1901, and only the state governments could build "railways" in Australia, anything else was a "tramway" regardless of gauge or tonnage hauled.  

1770 - James Cook sails northwards up the coast in the "Endeavour", identifying "Hat Hill" (Mount Kembla) west of Unanderra on his charts 

1797 - coal found at sea level at Coalcliff north of Wollongong by shipwrecked sailors walking back to Sydney  

1815 - first recorded colonist settlement in Wollongong by Charles Throsby for grazing 

1837/1840 - Wollongong harbour built with convict labour to handle mainly agricultural products to Sydney.

1849 - first recorded export of coal from Wollongong harbour by sea

1850 - Australian Agricultural Company (AA Co) coal monopoly based out of Newcastle and the Hunter River district broken, allows development of coal mines around Wollongong along the Illawarra escarpment

1860's/1870's - development of coal mines on the Illawarra escarpment with their own tramways to their own jetties. Development of Belmore Basin (Wollongong Harbour) opened 1865. Coal and agricultural products transported out by sea. 

1880's - development of two new mines near Mount Kembla with their own tramways to their own jetties at Red Point (later Port Kembla). In 1887 New South Wales Government Railways (NSWGR) opened the line between Clifton and Bombo. It would be another 2 years before Wollongong was finally connected by rail to Sydney, the state capital. Coke Ovens built at Port Kembla for Mount Lyell (Tasmania, copper smelter and mine). Mine-owned coal trains start using NSWGR tracks to Port Kembla for coal export.. 

1890's - coal output rises, Wollongong Harbour limited by depth (approx 800t max, vs 4000t max shipment from Port Kembla, Coal exports from Port Kembla rises while from Wollongong declines. Agitation for a new deep-water port, Port Kembla selected and gazetted by the state parliament in 1889.     

1900's - products from the Illawarra starting to swamp the NSWGR's single line capacity between Wollongong and Sydney, duplication work commences. ER&S (Electrolytic Refining and Smelting) builds a copper smelter at Port Kembla (probable business ties to Mt Lyell in Tasmania). Copper ore also processed from NSW mines like Cobar.

1910's - Duplication of the line between Waterfall and Thirroul flattened the opposing grade for trains leaving the Illawarra from 1 in 40 (2.5%) to 1 in 75 (1.3%) to relieve the congestion on the line. In 1916 Metal Manufactures Ltd (MM) opened its copper wire and tube plant near the ER&S copper smelter. Breakwater construction formed a protected harbour with new general cargo and coal loading jetties at Port Kembla. 

1920's/1930's - Australian Fertilizers Ltd (AFL) commences in 1921, supplying fertilizers from imported phosphate. The Hoskins' Australian Iron & Steel (AI&S) steelworks relocated from Lithgow (west of Sydney) to Port Kembla to access the local coal and port facilities needed to bring in iron ore in the late 1920's. A takeover in the early 1930's by the Broken Hill Proprietary Ltd (BHP) resulted in expansion and the building of the largest integrated steelworks south of the equator. In late 1930's, colliery locomotives are banned from NSWGR tracks between the mines and Port Kembla. NSWGR steam locomotives take over haulage on NSWGR tracks. In the mid-1930's the 1 in 30 (+3%) line between Unanderra and Moss Vale is opened. This allows limestone from Maraulin to be transported directly to the steelworks, eliminating a long diversion via Sydney.  

1940's - By the 1940s, the steelworks has coke ovens, three blast furnaces, Open Heath, cast iron spun pipe plant, rail and structural beam. billet and merchant (steel rod) mills on site.  John Lysaghts Australia Springhill and Commonwealth rolling mills commissioned in 1939 producing galvanised corrugated  steel sheeting, Track duplication between Wollongong and Port Kembla is completed to serve the industries at Port Kembla by 1941. The southern leg of the first triangle diverging form the Wollongong-Port Kembla NSWGR Wollongong Port Kembla from near the Lysaghts plant to Unanderra North Junction is commissioned in 1941..The track connection between Lysaghts and Unanderra North allows the easy access to limestone supplies from Maurulan on the Main South for the steelworks and distribution of products from Port Kembla to southern NSW and Melbourne markets without having to take a 120 mile deviation via Sydney,   

 Port Kembla in the 1940's.

1950's - #4 blast furnace, (+4000 ton/day), #2 Open Hearth, Hot Strip Mill, 140" Plate Mill, Cold Mill and hot-dip tinplate built and commissioned at AI&S. Work commences on dredging the Inner Harbour basin (site of future coal loader).

1960's - Inner Harbour completed, Port Kembla Coal Terminal opens in 1964, fed by rail with double track diverging  from the double track to Port Kembla at Coniston. Initial capacity is 2,000,000 ton/year, mainly to Japanese markets.This is the first leg of the second triangle. Steelmake exceeds 3,000,000 tons/year in 1963. Steam traction ends on NSWGR South Coast Line, fully dieselised by the mid-1960's.

1970's  - #5 Blast Furnace and BOS/ slab caster commissioned and steelmake exceeds 4,000,000 ton/year. Coking coal exports rise and exceed 5,000,000 ton/year by 1980.

1980's - Coal Loader upgrade with #2 Coal Loader superseding the 1964 Coal Loader in 1982, Coal exports running at 7.2Mtpa. A locomotive servicing facility (refuel/sand/brakes) is commissioned near the coal terminal offices by 1983 for locomotives operating out of the coal terminal.. Electrification at 1500V DC completed from Sydney through Wollongong to Port Kembla in 1983 and through Unanderra North junction to Unanderra and Dapto in 1993. Coal terminal balloon loops also electrified. GrainCorp grain Terminal commissioned with double electrified track extension from Unanderra North to grain and coal terminal balloon loops in 1989. This completes the second track triangle..   

 A current day view- a  Pacific National 93 class is unloading on the coal line at the coal terminal before heading around to the storage sidings on the now de-wired coal terminal balloon loop. The track in the foreground leads to the unloading sheds for the two grain terminals and their associated balloon loop and storage sidings 

All major track infrastructure on the prototype is now in place for the projected model. Next up what traffic went where. 

@ Johm...

...I am enjoying your dreaming! I spent many hours in the are trainspotting when up from Melbourne. The 'Gong and Pt Kembla area has always been one of my favourite areas for trains.

Some optional additional reading

Hi all, the 2 links below contain some additional reading, should you be so inclined. Both are digital copies of booklets published by the local historical society.:

Port of Wollongong Page 41 is of interest to me and my Corrimal Colliery Incline model - although the booklet has the coal export activity in the port starting to die from the 1890's, the wagons shown in the photo at the top of this page are lettered CBC for Corrimal Balgownie Colliery Ltd. This corporate identity didn't exist until 1902, and then continued to exist until 1933, when another ownership/corporate restructure changed the name to Corrimal Coal & Coke Ltd, with the wagons lettered CCC. 

Railway History in Illawarra, New South Wales - this booklet was written by one of the better railway historians, photograher authors. It was written 20 years before the coming of the upgraded coal loader and grain terminal with the final leg of the second triangle. The photos in booklet give some idea of the steam hauled freight and passenger services on the Illawarra. The 1967 photo on page 46 of a deviated "Southern Aurora" train passing through Bulli, could be replicated by the prototype at 'Derra North today, but under heritage operation rather than NSWGR ownership.. 

Still working on a suitable diagram for "what ran where",

Will be following along this

Will be following along this thread! My Farther worked in the Test House at Cringila most of his career and Grandfather worked in the hot strip mill as well as the power station back when the Pyrmont generators were moved there.

I used to train to school from Albion Park to North gong. The afternoon i would head out to Cringila and wait on the footbridge above the station and yard waiting for my dad to finish for the day. always dreampt of modeling and area of the works or even just the south coast.

Seeing I've already done the research

Hi all,

Seeing I've already done the research, here is a recap of the information for the Port Kembla export grain terminals 

here is the information for not one but two large export ship-loaders that are about 10 minutes down the road from home, But it has taken a bit of time track down the information on the larger of the two export terminals  The larger export terminal was built in 1989 (was it really that long ago??) and the smaller terminal was commissioned in 2017..

For the larger GrainCorp terminal - (lifted from a pdf download buried on their website)

 Storage and Logistics

• Vertical bins 260,000 tonnes
• Rail receival 1 hopper – up to 3600 TPH
• Road receival 1 hoppers – up to 350 TPH
• Ship loaders 2 – up to 5000 TPH
• Road outload 250 TPH

Ship Berth

• Ship capacity 120,000 DWT
• Berth length 260m
• Berth depth 16.25m
• Air draft at high tide of 1.6 m 16.4m
• Maximum outreach of ship loader 25m
• Minimum outreach of ship loader 9m

A video of the GrainCorp terminal operations when new,

and some photos of mine from publicly accessible areas - the terminal and silos

and both ship-loaders in action

For the smaller, more recent, Quattro Ports terminal (stats lifted from  their website also with more photos of the larger area)

• Rail Intake capable of unloading wagons at a rate of 1,000mt/hr;
• Ship Loading equipment capable of loading at a rate of 1,500mt/hr;
• Storage capacity of 100,000mt across 17 silo segregations;
• Road Intake capable of unloading trucks at a rate of 400mt/hr;

and one of my photos from the harbour side.

So just how do you build a modern grain terminal/elevator?? Like this:

These are seriously large structures. The amount of space required for the Coal Loader and its stacks is even larger by several times, As the "Unlimited Rule" is in play. no selective compression is required, because the budget and space is "available" 

Basic diagram - to help with traffic analysis

Hi all,

To help get our heads around where traffic on 'Derra North originates and goes to here is a basic diagram. The letters NTS apply (Not To Scale) 

 Please ignore any dimensions - the diagram was knocked together using set-track pieces as an indicative starting point for which tracks went where. The balloon loops on the 'Derra North model would be multiple tracks deep. How big the multiples are will be determined in the traffic analysis.  

To help you make some sense of what goes where:

• The top line can can be considered to be Gladstone Avenue
• where the left line crosses the tracks in the Drummond Street road overbridge  
• where the right line crosses the tracks is the Bridge Street road overbridge with the double tracks to Port Kembla curving away to the left 
• the lower line is Springhill Road
• where the single track at the left crosses Springhill Road is this road overbridge  
• where the double tracks cross Springhill Road in the centre is this road overbridge
• where the double tracks to the coal and grain export terminals the right cross Springhill Road is this road underpass.

When the Google car drove down Gladstone Avenue in November 2016, they managed to catch this coal train waiting for the signal at "Derra North. Where it was off to and who owned it can wait until next time.  

The footbridge at Cringila

Hi battey and all,

Previously batey wrote:

The footbridge above Cringila yard is "just around the bend" from Lysaghts station as shown in the diagram above and is represented on the diagram by the Port Kembla staging balloon loops. 

Here's your footbridge and Cringila station - If the "Unlimited Rule was applied a bit further Cringila yard behind the station and the traffic to and from steelworks lines behind that could be represented as well, before heading into the Port Kembla staging balloon loops   

Cringilla Footbridge

I spent many hours on this bridge watching trains. Or should I say the 2 bridges as there was 2 meeting end on one owned by NSWR and successors and one owned by AIS. Several times I was told to get off the AIS bridge by their security so we would go over onto the NSWR bridge and continue watching 

This shot show AIS D37 on a company coal train just about to pass under the Footbridge. D37 is an English Electric built in Rocklea, Queensland. AIS had 11 identical units which were 928hp.

The view from the bridge

Hi Graeme, Batey and all,

D37 and train shown in Graeme's post-1985 photo was probably off to the Mount Kembla line for a refill of coal. At that time. the larger 1800HP D34 shown in the next video tended to do the run to and from Wongawilli Colliery near Dapto. 

Hopefully the following will bring back some memories. It did for me,

The Metrop coalie

Hi all 

while testing a new camera I caught a "Metrop" coal train about to depart the coal loader balloon loops and head north past Coniston station to Metropolitan colliery near Helensburgh.

It was waiting for this OSCar set from KIama and Unanderra to clear. This had just come off the single line to the south end of "Derra North 

At the head end of the coal train was 8204

In the middle were about 45 of these (I lost count) 

At the rear of the train was 8244 

Why the push-pull (aka distributed power) arrangement?? Because Metropolitan Colliery can only be accessed from the north at Metropolitan Junction with the non-electrified line to the colliery passing over the double track electrified line from Wollongong and Port Kembla.

Prior to the distributed power consisting, the locos on the train would have to go past the colliery to Waterfall, run around at Waterfall, run back to the colliery, run around the train at the colliery after loading, then fight a 2.5% grade with a loaded train to Waterfall before running around and then heading back to the Port Kembla coal terminal. The coal train also had to dodge the passenger traffic on both tracks that run at about 30 minute intervals apart during the morning and afternoon peaks. 

That'll do for this post,

How long a loop?? Train Analysis - Part 1

Hi all again,

It's been a while. The first part of the train analysis process is to work out some maximum train lengths. 

Case 1 - Coal train - Originally coal trains serving the upgraded Port Kembla Coal Terminal were limited to 43 bogie coal hoppers with up to 4 locomotives of approx 3000HP up front.

Case 2 - Later coal/wheat trains - Over time, since the upgraded coal terminal opened, more powerful locomotive designs with better wheelslip control and combined with lighter wagon designs, the number of locomotives up front has dropped to 2 and the number of cars hauled per train has gone up to about 54 bogie coal hoppers. Wheat trains serving the grain terminal are about the same length as the coal trains.  

Case 3 - Longest passenger train, a diverted Indian Pacific - An internet dig gave an approximate length of 775 metres which would equate to 2 locomotives and about 31 cars at 23.8 metres long each. These are a narrower and lower version of the US  corrugated stainless steel passenger cars with full side skirts. Normally this train would use another route, but there have been occasions in the past when the Indian Pacific has passed through town after problems along its planned route. So why not??   

So what's our maximum train length for the coal and wheat terminals? 

Having recently found the train operating manual for the local area, most diesel or elctric locomtives working since the loader opened are about 22 metres long (72') and each coal/wheat hopper is about 15 metres long (49') 

Case 1 - (4x22)+(43x15) = 733m = 8.5 actual metres (28') in HO or 4.6 actual metres (15') long in N-Scale.

Case 2 - (2x22)+(54x15) = 854m = 9.8 actual metres (32') in HO or 5.3 actual metres (17'6") long in N scale. 

Case 3 - 775m = 8.9 actual metres in HO or 4.8 actual metres (16') in N scale.

Now while these may not be "US Powder River sized coal trains", if you want the capability to hold trains both in front of and after the unloading points at the terminal, now you are talking some serious length needed in the terminal balloon loops for both coal and wheat trains. And also some serious model real estate to fit these balloon loops.

As shown in the plan in the "Basic Diagram" posting above, these maximum train lengths also set the length of balloon loops at Wollongong and Unaderra for empty trains headed out of the terminal loops to off-layout destinations for reloading.

The diverted Indian Pacific would only be transiting between the Unanderra and Wollongong balloon loops, and would never visit the Port Kembla or terminal balloon loop tracks.    

But hey, as this is a hypothetical ultimate layout with an unlimited budget, planning this amount of model real estate isn't really a problem? Is it?

What from Where to Where-else??Train Analysis- Part 2A

Hi all,

now for part 2 - What went from Where to Where-else

Traffic patterns have changed over the 35 plus years since the coal loader and grain terminal were commissioned in the mid-1980's, with changing industrial outputs and mines going in and out of production. Seasonal (drought) variations in traffic to the grain terminals also occurred.

The position gets even more complicated when 3 of the bigger government-owned systems were "privatised" from the early 1990's.because who owned what locomotives and their paint schemes often have changed pretty dramatically. Who owned what wagons also changed with the same wagons often having the previous owner's logo simply hidden by sticky-backed vinyl-signage. 

For traffic analysis, lets simply bust the this planned ultimate layout up by balloon loops using this diagram, repeated from above for clarity

 Working from nominally north to south, we have 4 balloon loops:

1. Wollongong Staging - representing the line through Coniston to Wollongong, Sydney and all points beyond. This is double tracked and bi-directionally signalled
2. Export Terminals Staging - representing actual balloon loops and associated sidings  at the coal and grain ship-loading terminals at Port Kembla Harbour. This can be only accessed directly accessed from the Wollongong or Unanderra staging loops
3. Port Kembla Staging - representing the major exchange sidings at Cringila and Port Kembla North, the end of the passenger service at Port Kembla station This can only be directly accessed from the Wollongong and Unanderra staging loops. This is double tracked but signalled single direction only with a dedicated Up (to Sydney) and Down (from Sydney) tracks.
4. Unanderra staging - representing the line south through Unanderra to the end of track at Bomaderry. This is double track bi-diectional signalled until Unanderra. The line to Bomaderry becomes single-line bi-directionally signalled south of Unanderra station. At Unanderra station traffic can also join from the west via the Unanderra-Moss Vale line  

If you are interested, have a look at  http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/Sydney/RC2416.pdf  to see how "Derra North" is currently signalled in the real world. 

To give some idea of the variation in train ownership and routing over time,  consider the Wongawilli Colliery run. Wongawilli is a colliery about 5 miles south of Unanderra, with the loaded traffic from the mine being represented by Unanderra Staging.

• In the 1980's and 1990's this mine was owned by the steelworks and trains to and from this mine never went by Derra North junction, but rather accessed the Sydney-Nowra line just north of Unanderra station via dedicated industrial trackage directly to the steelworks. In the "View from the Bridge" posting above, one of these Wongawilli coal trains appears in the Youtube at 00:15 headed down the bank with D34 in charge. 
• In the early 2000's, following a corporate re-organisation by the steelworks and BHP mining, Wongawilli colliery was sold, with all coal mined then being sent for export via the coal terminal and "Derra North". Two different rail operators have since provided the haulage using different locomotive and wagon sets. 

 That'll do for this post

What from Where to Where-else?? Train Analysis - Part 2B

Hi all again,

Time for a more in-depth look at what runs from Where to Where-else through 'Derra North. To help set the scene with respect to planned model rolling stock, I have included a lot of links to the prototype.

Initially considering only two of the 4 staging areas Wollongong Staging and Unanderra Staging over a period since electrification in 1985.  

1- Revenue Passenger service - operated by TrainLink (formerly CityRail) with the following types and consists in approximate date order by their appearance in service at 'Derra North

Electric Multiple Units (EMU)

• V-Set Interurban -  4, 6 and 8 car consists (only one 8-car return run/day) from 1985 until 2006
• G-Set Tangara Interurban - 4 and 8 car consists (yellow end panels - fitted with a wheelchair-accessible toilet/ 4-car set)  from about 1988 until 2006 
• T-Set Tangara suburban - 4 and 8 car sets (black end panels, no toilet) from about 1990 until current date
• S-Set suburban - earlier non-airconditioned cars, ran as either 2-car cab/cab or 3-car cab/trailer/cab sets sometimes with Tulloch trailer cars from 1985 until early 1990's, when they were replaced by Tangara T sets.This consist was a rarity on this leg.  
• H-Set OSCAR interurban - 4 and 8 car sets from 2006 until current date

Diesel Multiple Units (DMU)

• 620/720 Class sets - 2 car diesel railcar sets either as 2- car sets or doubled up to form a 4-car set from 1985 until about 1994, when replaced by the Endeavour sets
• 900 Class set - 4 car set -  from about 1983 until about 1994 when replaced by Endeavour sets.
• Endeavour diesel sets - 2 car diesel railcar sets - service the non electrified line south of Kiama, but run through to Wollongong several times/day from mid 1990's until current date

2 - Diverted revenue Passenger services

This leg forms part of the route available for the diversion of long-distance passenger consists if there are extended closures on either the Western line  from the Blue Mountains to Sydney or on the Main South Sydney Melbourne line between Sydney and Moss Vale. Types of train that may be seen;

• XPT (Sydney/Melbourne) 1985/current
• Indian Pacific (Sydney/Perth) 1985/current
• Southern Aurora 1985 to mid 1990's

3 - Goods services 

• Ballast trains - These originated at quarries either at Bombo or Dunmore, south of Unanderra. There were at least 2 different types of ballast wagon used for moving the stone. More recently locomotives are usually Pacific National 81 class 3300HP units as shown in the previous link, but in the 1980's and 1990's many different locomotives were used. 
• Manildra starch train -  These trains originate at Bomadery and move starch in containers to Sydney. Currently the more usual motive power is up to four 3300HP 81 class locomotives.

4 - Heritage tourism passenger services

This leg forms part of the route for a reasonably active heritage tourism  passenger train service that features at least 1 excursion train per month. In the past there were once weekly services running. These services use a limited range of consists (perhaps 4 different consist) hauled by wide range of heritage locomotives. There are 3 main organisations engaged in this business.  In some cases what would have been revenue passenger consists in the mid 1980's are now appearing a heritage tourist trains, often in the same paint schemes but now operated by heritage train operators. Some examples are;

• Cockatoo Run - diesel hauled passenger service up the +3% Unanderra- Moss Vale line
• Tin Hare CPH railmotor sets
• 620/720 class sets 
• Southern Aurora set hauled by heritage diesels 
• other steam heritage tours, like this one from 2016, hauled by a 59 class through Unanderra and headed to 'Derra North then  onto Sydney.

Doing the sums, we've got:

• 3 x V sets consists (1 each 4, 6 and 8 car sets)
• 2 x Tangara G set consists (1 x 4 car set, 1 x 8 car set with yellow noses) 
• 2 x S sets (1 x 3 car set 1 x 2 car set)
• 2 x H set consists 1 x 4 car, 1 x 8 car set)
• 1 x 620/720 class consist 
• 1 x 900 class consist
• 1 x Endeavour set
• 1 x XPT 7 car consist
• 1 x Indian Pacific consist of 2 locos plus 30 passenger cars
• 1 x Southern Aurora consist of 2 heritage diesels plus 20 passenger cars
• 1 Cockatoo Run consist of heritage diesel (49 or 421 class and 5 passenger cars
• 1 heritage steam tour consist of 2 heritage steam locomotives, water gin, 10 passenger cars plus one of two heritage diesel locos
• 2x ballast train consists (1 with flat sided wagons, one with curve sided wagons) with two suitable diesels for each consist
• 1 Manildra "starchie" - 2 diesels plus 30 container flats.    

And we're up to 20 different consists already just for the first 2 of 4 staging areas that feed "Derra North. Some of these can be used between other staging areas as well.

We still have more traffic analysis ahead, with another 4 staging combinations that fed traffic through 'Derra North to be considered, Until next time,  

What from Where to Where-else?? Train Analysis - Part 2C

Hi all again,

This time we'll look at the traffic between Wollongong Staging Balloon Loops and Export Staging Balloon Loops over the period since electrification until current.  using the same format as last time...

1- Revenue Passenger service - Not applicable. There were and are no scheduled passenger services to and from the Export Terminals 

2 - Goods services - were either coal or grain trains serving dedicated unloading sheds at the Export terminals

• Coal trains -  Coal trains serviced by the Coal Terminal and passing through Wollongong (and its its staging balloon loops on the model) originated from Metropolitan Colliery near Helensburgh, Coalcliff Colliery (until 1992) or from the Western districts coalfield near Lithgow in the Blue Mountains. The Metropolitan Colliery trains have already been covered above (see the Merop Coalie posting with the photos of the top & tailed 82 class diesels) 
  Trains originating from the Western District mines face numerous 2.5% grade climbs and a +3% descent between Katoomba and Valley Heights in the Blue Mountains, west of Sydney. These have up to four 4000HP units up front.
  
  Over the 30+ years of rail operations that the upgraded PKCT has been in action, there have been at least 5 visually different coal wagon designs used to move the coal hauled by a wide variety of diesel and electric locomotive owned by at least 8 different rail operators. 

• 46 Class,  85 Class and  86 Class electric locomotives were used on coal haulage until 2002. Up to 4 electric locomotives were used on 45-wagon consists. Among other factors, a change in rail regulatory environment rendered electric locomotives less economical than diesel-electrics locomotives for freight haulage. After rail transport of coal from Coalcliff colliery ceased, most of the electric locomotive fleet was scrapped in the early 2000's, the balloon loops at the expert terminals were de-wired some years later. Today the de-wired catenary masts dotted along the tracks of the export terminals are a silent reminder of what was an interesting time of freight haulage locally.  

• Grain trains -  These trains originated in western NSW. These trains faced the same stiff gradients mentioned for the coal trains. The route is from west of the Blue Mountains, through Enfield marshalling yards to join the South Coast line at Meeks Road north of  Tempe. These loaded grain trains then  faced another stiff +2% climb from the Georges River at Como through Sutherland to Waterfall as shown in the previous video. Grain trains from the southwest of NSW come in on a different route that we'll cover next time. 

As with the coal trains, there have been a wide variety of different wagons used to haul grain to Port Kembla, with some equally diverse power up front. Even in the one train, the amount of variation in wagons that can turn up sometimes has to be seen to be believed, like in this train comprised of wagons largely from Western Australia. This is almost equivalent to seeing a fleet of Californian wagons running in Maine.

This train still has another 80km to go and would have passed through Wollongong and ended its run at the export grain terminal. So this consist is fair game as a model.  

To give some idea of the variety of wagons used to haul grain to the export terminal, here's links to photos of just some of the different wagons, with inks to photos from the Australian Railway Detail Photos website  In rough order of appearance at Port Kembla 

• FWH later classed as NGBF - These were built in the 1950's originally as coal wagons but some were fitted with roofs for grain traffic. They were on their last legs when the Port Kembla grain terminal came on line in the mid 1980's. These were cascaded to less critical duties (limestone/fertiliser/cement clinker) by the 1990's.
• NGWY - built in the 1960's   
• NGTY - previously coded as NSWGR WTY type, built in the 1970's 
• NGVF - built in the 1970's.
• XGAY - built c2000 in China for ATN Access, later taken over by Pacific National. These had to take the long way around through Sydney after being banned following a runaway on the +3% Unanderra-Moss Vale line. Fortunately everything stayed on the tracks. But that's another story that goes with this proposed layout.
• CGDY - Owned by CFCLA (Chicago Freight Car Leasing Australia) from 2003 
• NGPF - these were upgraded NGTY wagons operated by Pacific Nataional with air-operated roof doors and the roof walkways removed from 2003 
• CGGY - Owned by CFCLA from 2008
• AHG - originally built for Australian National Railways in the 1970's and 1980's, running under Queensland Rail National in 2012 as shown in the last video
• AGWF originally built for Australian National Railways, running under Queensland Rail National in 2012 as shown in the last video 
• BGSY - owned bv SSR (Southern Shorthaul Railroad) from 2014
• CGSY - Owned by CFCLA from 2015

And that is just some of the different types of grain wagons that have operated out of the Port Kembla export grain terminal.

3 - Heritage tourism passenger services

In the past, the balloon loops at the Export Terminals have been used to turn heritage passenger trains originating from Sydney with Wollongong as the destination. These were empty coaching stock moves while the passengers are spending time in Wollongong. Again the same heritage consists mentioned in the previous post could be used for the rare occasions these empty coach stock movements happened.

Sometimes on even rarer occasions there were  railtours through the balloon loops where the passengers remained on the train.      

Again - doing the sums, we've got:

• Coalcliff coal trains (electrically-hauled) - double-headed electric locos (85 and 86 class) and 44  CH or  CHS type coal hoppers with and dedicated brakevans (caboose) at each end. This type of working was unique to the Coalcliff run. Call it 2 different possible consists
• Coalcliff coal train (diesel-hauled) - with double headed 80 or 81 class locomotives and two different types of coal wagon as above.Call it 4 different possible consists.  
• Metropolitan Colliery (diesel hauled only because the siding to the mine was never electrified) - Some significant changes have happened over time with the "Metrop coalies". The photos of the Metrop coalie posted previously of coal trains hauled by "top & tailed" 82 Class locomotive are the latest and current consist. Initially trains were limited to about 30 of the earlier version bogie coal hoppers (CH and CHS types) hauled by two of the first and second generation NSWGR diesels (NSWGR 44, 45, 421, 422, and 80 class locomotives). Later after the loading siding was extended at the colliery, train lengths increased to 40+ coal wagons hauled by higher horsepower 81 class locomotives with 2 up front. The current top and tail train formation with predominately 82 class locomotives came several years later after distributed power was permitted in the early 2000's.  
  In short, there are at least 5 model combinations of train length and motive power options that could accurately represent Metrop Coalies.  
• Western District coal trains (electrically-hauled) - The same coal wagon consist could be used as for the Coalcliff coal trains, but they only had one brake van at the trailing end of the coal the coal wagons. Power would be by 4 electric locomotives (usually 86 class or 2 x 85 and 2 by 86 class locomotive. This still counts as 2 different possible consist variations.
• Western district coal trains (diesel-hauled) -  With the variety of coal wagons and motive power used over the last 30 years it would be very easy to have 5 different consists of 5 entirely "different-looking" coal wagons. On most of these 5 different wagon consists it would be very easy to have at least 2 different motive power combinations that would look like totally different coal trains. So call it another 10 different consists minimum, just for this category
• Grain trains (electrically hauled) - These trains from the west were usually managed by double-headed electric locomotives. They weren't as heavy as the coal trains. I suppose we could get away with one consist on NGWY-type grain hoppers hauled by double 86 class locomotives   
• Grain trains (diesel-hauled) -  There would easily be  5  different looking grain train wagon consists On most of these 5 different grain wagon consists it would be very easy to have at least 2 different motive power combinations that would look like totally different grain trains. So call it another 10 different consists minimum, just for this category

Adding it all up, that's another 34 possible different consists. Now if you add the previous 20 route/consist variations we're now at 54 different route/consist combinations. And we still have an other 2 routes to go. 

Next time - the Unanderra Balloon Loops to Export Terminal Balloon Loops.   

Great Research

John,

I love the amount of research you are pulling together for this '"won't ever happen" layout. I'm in a similar exercise, all thanks to Paul Krentz' Pokey 3.0 posts By posting it here you are compiling a nice single source of info on the prototype that could help others build their realistic sized but heavily compressed pikes. You might not see much people respond to your posts, but we are there lurking and taking in the info you provide. Keep the posts coming!

Thanks Yaron and other lurkers

Thanks Yaron, and other lurkers,

It's nice to know someone is actually reading and following the saga of this "won't ever happen" layout. 

Yes, there's still more to come, including available modelling options. But that's a little way off in the future still. 

What from Where to Where-else?? Train Analysis - Part 2D

  ↵

Hi all again

This time we'll look at the traffic between Unanderra Staging Balloon Loops and Export Staging Balloon Loops over the period since electrification until current.  using the same format as last time.

1- Revenue Passenger service - Not applicable. There were and are no scheduled passenger services to and from the Export Terminals from the Unanderra direction.

2 - Goods services - were either coal or grain trains serving dedicated unloading sheds at the Export terminals

• Coal trains -  Coal trains serviced by the Coal Terminal and passing through Unanderra (and its its staging balloon loops on the model) either originated from Tahmoor Colliery on the southern highlands (still mining) or Wonagawilli Colliery just south of Unanderra (until 2019) 

Loading operations at each of these two mines were significantly different, which led to two very different looking coal trains. The logistics of getting to and from both those mines also led to that "different look" for both trains. But trains to either of these mines were always diesel-electric hauled, because the "wires" don't run to either mine. 

As mentioned previously, over the 30+ years of rail operations that the upgraded PKCT has been in action, there have been at least 5 visually different coal wagon designs used to move the coal hauled by a wide variety of diesel locomotives owned by at least 3 different rail operators. 

For Wongawilli trains, the run was short and relatively flat when compared to the terrain faced by the Tahmoor trains. Train lengths are restricted because of the restricted siding lengths to hold empty wagons under the bin. Since 1985, four rail operators have hauled coal from Wongawilli, but trains from only three of them used "Derra North", then went onwards to the coal terminal.  While the colliery was under steelworks ownership, the Wongawilli coal trains never got to "Derra North"  Their Wongawilli trains swung off at Unanderra station to join the steelwork's own private line between its collieries near Mount Kembla and the steelworks. 

Here one of the later steelworks-run Wongawilli coal trains leaving the mine area with double ALCO's at the front.

The following video of a "Wonga coalie" is of top-and-tail operation by Aurizon/QR National.  I have seen the same loco consist run as 2 up-front. I'm not sure when the top-and-tail operation began or ended. Aurizon withdrew its locos and wagons back to Hunter District operations just before the mine closed in 2019. 

Operation of the Tahmoor trains is a whole lot more complicated. The Tahmoor trains have to face the 1-in-30 (+3%) grade from Unnaderra to Summit Tank to get to the mine. Here's an empty train bashing its way up the opposing 1-in-30 grade. The TT class upfront, with 4500HP and AC traction motors is making easy work of the grade. 

The balloon loading loop at the Tahmoor colliery (see the link above) can only be accessed from the north, but the mine is approached from the south - hence the top and tail configuration. Prior to "top and tailing" being allowed, trains had to be worked further north to sidings at Picton, run around, hauled the the mine, loaded worked back to Picton, before being run around again to finally head south towards Moss Vale and then downhill to Port Kembla. 

And here's a loaded train from Tahmoor colliery at Bargo on on the Main South after loading. top and tailed by TT class locomotives These trains after loading are fighting a 2% grade before they turn left at Moss Vale and head towards Port Kembla.

• Grain trains -  These trains originated in south-western NSW. These trains faced the same stiff gradients mentioned for the coal trains. The route is south from Moss Vale to the grain growing regions. 

3 - Heritage tourism passenger services

I won't say that this "never happened", but for the rare occurrences that have been documented, heritage trains entered and exited the terminal balloon loops from the north or Coniston leg  

Again - doing the sums, we've got:

• Wongawilli coal trains - double-headed or top & tail diesel-electric locos . Call it 2 different possible consists (Pacific National and Aurizon) with at least 4 different motive power variations Aurizon 60 class and PN (81,82 and TT classes)  - Call it 8 different possible consists
• Tahmoor coal trains (diesel-hauled) - These have almost exclusively been hauled by PN motive power using PN wagons, with 2 or 3 top and tailed locomotives of TT or 82 or 90 class locomotives and two different types of coal wagon as above. Call it 6 different possible consists.  
• Grain trains (diesel-hauled) -  There would easily be  5  different looking grain train wagon consists On most of these 5 different grain wagon consists it would be very easy to have at least 2 different motive power combinations that would look like totally different grain trains. So call it another 10 different consists minimum, just for this category

Adding it all up, that's another 24 possible different consists. Now if you add the previous 54 route/consist variations we're now at 78 different route/consist combinations. And we still have another route to go. 

Next time, its the turn for traffic analysis between Unanderra staging and Port Kembla staging. 

Another Wonga train

Hi all again,

Back in the " Basic Diagram - to help with Traffic analysis" posting on Page 2,  at the end I wrote:

Now it can be revealed  - this was an empty Wonga coal train powered by two Quensland Rail National locomotives up front, "waiting for the stick" (the signal to change) at Derra North. The delay was probably caused by a passenger train somewhere between Dapto and Unanderra. This stretch of track is single track signalled bi-directionally. Once the passenger train left Unanderra station for the north, it could be switched to the other dual track between Unanderra and Derra North, giving the QRN train a clear path to where it would turn off and head to the mine. Trains on the NSW network usually run on the left-hand track. but operationally Unanderra has some unique wrinkles that we might cover later. 

Queensland Rail National was the freight arm of Queensland Rail that was spun off by the Queensaland Government as a separate corporate identity known initially as Queensland Rail National but later re-titled as Aurizon. 

It takes some tree dodging while moving along Gladstone Avenue in Streetview, but the lead locomotive is in the original QRN paint, the second loco is in the yellow Aurizon paint scheme and the wagons have been re-badged with vinyl Aurizon stickers. so that's another locomotive livery variation for the Wonga coal train.